Workout advice going from 5x5

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kevinf2380
kevinf2380 Posts: 256 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
I've been doing the 5x5 for awhile and I really like it. I'd like to try doing a 3x8 workout and do a few more exercises per workout. I'd also like to go to a body segment type thing. Chest, back one day, shoulders, arms and tri's the next workout. I'd like to incorporate some of the 5x5 lifts just not sure what would be good to do in addition to those lifts. I'm trying to do more of a transformation now instead of bulking. My idea of a decent workout now is

For back and chest
Squats
cable flies
bench press
Pushups
Barbell Rows or Deadlifts
Back flies or TRX back exercises

Arms Tri's and shoulders
Straight arm pull downs
Tricep Extension
Bicep curls
Concentration curls
Shoulder raises to the side and front

Something like that. Any advice would be appreciated.
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Replies

  • usmcmp
    usmcmp Posts: 21,220 Member
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    You could follow something like PHAT:
    http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html

    You're going to get better bang for your buck having compound and accessory work mixed rather than a day of compound work and a day of isolation work like you are asking for.
  • quiksylver296
    quiksylver296 Posts: 28,442 Member
    edited October 2017
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    usmcmp wrote: »
    You could follow something like PHAT:
    http://www.simplyshredded.com/mega-feature-layne-norton-training-series-full-powerhypertrophy-routine-updated-2011.html

    You're going to get better bang for your buck having compound and accessory work mixed rather than a day of compound work and a day of isolation work like you are asking for.

    She knows what she's talking about.^^

    I personally liked Norton's PH3 program. Many people like Wendler's 5/3/1. Use a program written by professionals, don't try to wing it.

    SL 5X5 is a beginner program. Sounds like you are ready to move to an intermediate program, like Norton's or Wendler's. Pretty much every option out there is listed in this link.

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1
  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
    edited October 2017
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    Agreed. Layne Norton has some pretty awesome programs out. PHAT and PHUL and one or two others. Once I can get back in the gym, I am going to so SL5x5 and then - after four months or so - will move to MadCow (going to stick - I think, anyway - with that progression) and will then look at PHAT. Very familiar with Dr. Norton's PHAT. I have been lifting/training for decades but have never completed a set program in my life. At 50, time to start!

    A lot of the "bigger names" will have a "main mover" exercise for the day (think bench press, squat, dead lift, ohp) and then two or three 'accessory lifts" and then abs built into their programs for each day. I have been lifting weights (and, recently, training) most of my life and I am 50. Coming up with my own program is not something that I need to be doing. I mean, there are some really smart folks our there (Dr. Norton does have a PhD in protein synthesis, right? And the man does pretty dang well in world class power lifting....he just might know a thing or two about this!!!!) so how am I going to build a better mouse trap? Not likely going to happen.

    And, I am sure that you simply mis-typed.....but not sure how Squats are a part of back and chest. Did you by chance mean dead lifts? Dead lifts are weird in that some people consider them a back exercise (I am in that camp) and some people consider them a leg/glute exercise (and those people would be correct, too!).

    I do not really see any legs in your suggested program? Other than the squats and "barbell rows OR dead lifts".

    If I might suggest, you want to do both rows and dead lifts. One of the queues in doing dead lifts is to "protect your pits" or "bend the bar around your legs". When you do that - and the weight on your Dead Lifts exceeds three plates on each side - you will notice that you stress the <kitten> out of your lats. So, you really want strong lats if you are going to go heavy in the dead lifts. Just an observation.\

    The main thing is that you find a program that works for you. Lots of things to take into account.....

    1. Time of training session
    2. number of training sessions per week
    3. your goals


    There are lots and lots of options. And, heck - who are we to "tell" you not to do your own program. I know a guy, my age, who kills it. And he has been doing his own thing for the last four years. Just spoke with him in the office about this today. So, shoot.....it works for him. I mean, the man is a beast. Still, I would recommend that you follow a set program. :wink:
  • usmcmp
    usmcmp Posts: 21,220 Member
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    ijsantos2005 wrote: »
    Don’t follow that quack, Lame Norton. His programs are not for natural lifters. That workload will bury you.

    I'm a natural lifter (I compete in tested federations for bodybuilding and powerlifting) and I really enjoy some of his programs. The ones I like definitely do not "bury me", even when run on a deficit.

    Painting everything with a broad paintbrush doesn't suit anyone.
  • trigden1991
    trigden1991 Posts: 4,658 Member
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    ijsantos2005 wrote: »
    Don’t follow that quack, Lame Norton. His programs are not for natural lifters. That workload will bury you.

    The irony is strong. Layne is a natural and aims his programmes at other natural athletes.
  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
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    One of the drawbacks of a public forum......lots of ignorant people (of which I include myself). The problem with that....some have an agenda. My only agenda......change my state (from ignorant to less ignorant).

    But, this is the great thing about this country.....you can say whatever you want. And, more than likely, you will not disappear (when the Black Suburbans come to get you). Your comments might meet some resistance and illicit some conversation, but you will not disappear (unlike in some other countries).

    Now, maybe I am overreacting. Maybe Mssr. Santos tried the PHAT or PHUL programs and just could not do it? Who knows. Hey, here is a novel idea....let's ask! Well, on second though....maybe not.
  • kevinf2380
    kevinf2380 Posts: 256 Member
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    I'm sure the PHAT thing works but I'm not going to work out 5days a week. I usually work out 3 days and do a day of cardio in between. The cardio is optional. I do it if I feel like it. I should have specified the 3 days a week part. I was hoping to get more advice about doing chest, back one day then arms, shoulders triceps the next. Have people found it doesn't really matter what you do when as long as you get all the muscle groups in?
  • ritzvin
    ritzvin Posts: 2,860 Member
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    kevinf2380 wrote: »
    I'm sure the PHAT thing works but I'm not going to work out 5days a week. I usually work out 3 days and do a day of cardio in between. The cardio is optional. I do it if I feel like it. I should have specified the 3 days a week part. I was hoping to get more advice about doing chest, back one day then arms, shoulders triceps the next. Have people found it doesn't really matter what you do when as long as you get all the muscle groups in?

    You're probably not going to get as much out of it - there's a limit to how much quality work you're likely to get when later reworking the same muscles in the same session (rather than working them once, having recovery time, and then hitting them again in the next session 2 days later). The plans that are not full-body in the same session will normally call for 4-5 days/week so that you continue to work each muscle group more than once/week). Although, if 2 of those 3 days are back-to-back, then you may not want to re-work the same muscles again and some kind of split makes more sense on those days.

    And ditto on not leaving out the deadlifts. They are especially useful if that cardio day is running. (whenever I pass an otherwise much stronger runner on an uphill, I always thank deadlifts).

    If it's because you are trying to save time in order add more accessory stuff, then switching from 5x5 to 4x6 or 3x8 and super-setting what doesn't interfere with each other is 1 possible option (switching out BB for DB's on one of the pushes or pulls in order to cram it into the rest period between leg sets, for instance).
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    kevinf2380 wrote: »
    I'm sure the PHAT thing works but I'm not going to work out 5days a week. I usually work out 3 days and do a day of cardio in between. The cardio is optional. I do it if I feel like it. I should have specified the 3 days a week part. I was hoping to get more advice about doing chest, back one day then arms, shoulders triceps the next. Have people found it doesn't really matter what you do when as long as you get all the muscle groups in?

    It's not enough frequency and duration really. Not enough TUT (Time Under Tension) weekly.

    Hence that method being for advanced level body building.

    In which case stick to a 3 x full body routine - the difference being what lifts are done and set/rep ranges.
    You might get by with 2x weekly for any specific muscle group, aka the SL5x5 method of alternating, so within any 1 week something is being done 2x for same muscles. That gives a slight increase to lifts, or shorter session if that is a limit.

    Again, the list of programs available there should have something that looks interesting.
  • H_Ock12
    H_Ock12 Posts: 1,152 Member
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    I got bored with 5x5 as written and started doing the entire exercise list at each workout...got bored with that, added accessories, got bored with that and moved to 3x8 with accessories. I'm currently doing a 20 rep squat program...I've only been working it about three weeks and I've found it quite brutal, but I enjoy the variety. I included the link below if you're interested in taking a look.

    https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/irontamer5.htm
  • ecjim
    ecjim Posts: 1,001 Member
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    MotherOfSharpei wrote: »
    I got bored with 5x5 as written and started doing the entire exercise list at each workout...got bored with that, added accessories, got bored with that and moved to 3x8 with accessories. I'm currently doing a 20 rep squat program...I've only been working it about three weeks and I've found it quite brutal, but I enjoy the variety. I included the link below if you're interested in taking a look.

    https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/irontamer5.htm

    Mother of Sharpei - You have my respect - A 20 rep squat program is tough - also very effective. Eastcoast Jim
  • usmcmp
    usmcmp Posts: 21,220 Member
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    kevinf2380 wrote: »
    I'm sure the PHAT thing works but I'm not going to work out 5days a week. I usually work out 3 days and do a day of cardio in between. The cardio is optional. I do it if I feel like it. I should have specified the 3 days a week part. I was hoping to get more advice about doing chest, back one day then arms, shoulders triceps the next. Have people found it doesn't really matter what you do when as long as you get all the muscle groups in?

    Compound moves prime the body for growth. They drive testosterone and make the isolation work worth it. You'll struggle to build back and chest with zero leg work and an accessory day. If you want to be a casual lifter your plan will be fine and eventually you'll make progress. Your body, do what you want.
  • ecjim
    ecjim Posts: 1,001 Member
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    usmcmp wrote: »
    kevinf2380 wrote: »
    I'm sure the PHAT thing works but I'm not going to work out 5days a week. I usually work out 3 days and do a day of cardio in between. The cardio is optional. I do it if I feel like it. I should have specified the 3 days a week part. I was hoping to get more advice about doing chest, back one day then arms, shoulders triceps the next. Have people found it doesn't really matter what you do when as long as you get all the muscle groups in?

    Compound moves prime the body for growth. They drive testosterone and make the isolation work worth it. You'll struggle to build back and chest with zero leg work and an accessory day. If you want to be a casual lifter your plan will be fine and eventually you'll make progress. Your body, do what you want.

    USMCMP is absolutely correct - base your program around hi rep heavy squats - add bench press / row /OH press/ deadlift & pull up - squat each training session - eat & rest - you will grow muscle if you put in the effort - Eastcoast Jim
  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
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    Everyone is different.....in how they like to train, in how they make progress and in how they recover.

    For example, I did 34 days straight of heavy squats. Well, for me at the time heavy. And I had pretty much no issues. On days 13 and 14 I was not loving life (my body said <kitten> this!) but I pushed through and made it. I took a few days off and then did another 14 straight days of heavy squats. Not likely recommended......but I did it. Learned a lot from that time......ate a lot, slept a lot. No doubt, right? Feed the machine, kill it, rest and resurrect it. Rinse and repeat. Again, not recommended at all.

    That did really help me with a lot of things, though.

    Now, for full disclosure, I did injury myself after doing that....twice. And pretty good, too. No doubt there, either, right?

    But, that is an extreme. No need for that. Find that happy medium.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,876 Member
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    kevinf2380 wrote: »
    I'm sure the PHAT thing works but I'm not going to work out 5days a week. I usually work out 3 days and do a day of cardio in between. The cardio is optional. I do it if I feel like it. I should have specified the 3 days a week part. I was hoping to get more advice about doing chest, back one day then arms, shoulders triceps the next. Have people found it doesn't really matter what you do when as long as you get all the muscle groups in?

    You'd still want to go with a full body program if you're lifting 3x per week and add some accessory work. For example, on a bench day I will also typically do my cleans and some accessory back work (cable rows or dumbbell rows and face pulls) and also some triceps work.
  • ecjim
    ecjim Posts: 1,001 Member
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    CWShultz27105 wrote: »
    Everyone is different.....in how they like to train, in how they make progress and in how they recover.

    For example, I did 34 days straight of heavy squats. Well, for me at the time heavy. And I had pretty much no issues. On days 13 and 14 I was not loving life (my body said <kitten> this!) but I pushed through and made it. I took a few days off and then did another 14 straight days of heavy squats. Not likely recommended......but I did it. Learned a lot from that time......ate a lot, slept a lot. No doubt, right? Feed the machine, kill it, rest and resurrect it. Rinse and repeat. Again, not recommended at all.

    That did really help me with a lot of things, though.

    Now, for full disclosure, I did injury myself after doing that....twice. And pretty good, too. No doubt there, either, right?

    But, that is an extreme. No need for that. Find that happy medium.

    I didn't say to squat heavy every day - that is a recipe for an injury as you found out - there are some squat everyday programs out there but they have light "recovery" days - Squatting 2- 3 X per week is enough. I have done a 20 rep program more than once - doing it aggressively 3 x week all I wanted to do is eat & sleep but I made great gains -Eastcoast Jim
  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
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    @ecjim - no, you did not. I was just sharing. Hoping that others learn from my silly mistake.
  • sgt1372
    sgt1372 Posts: 3,977 Member
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    OP: unclear what your objective is.

    What do you mean by "transformation"? If it's a body building or sculpting thing, then all of the isolation stuff you want to do probably makes sense but it's too busy of a program for me.

    I've done both Starting Strength and Stronglifts and have increase my strength and "transformed" my body considerably. I have a more than enough mass in my pecs, arms and quads as well as muscular definition in my arms, legs, back and abs, inluding hard to get definition in the serratus.

    I accomplished this only doing the 4 main compound lifts - - DLs, SQTs, BPs & OHPs along w pullup, pushup and dip routine plus some StairMaster and rowing sessions.

    My objective is just to maintain my current wt, strength, mass and muscular definition and I am just continuing to do what I did b4 to achieve that. Works for me.


  • ecjim
    ecjim Posts: 1,001 Member
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    CWShultz27105 wrote: »
    @ecjim - no, you did not. I was just sharing. Hoping that others learn from my silly mistake.

    Oh OK -I must have read it wrong - I don't know how you did it every day - Olympic lifters might do that but they are in better shape then any of us- Eastcoast Jim

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