New (hopefully more realistic) target.

tomjanecourtney

Thanks for (most of) the replies to my last thread.

Been revising my target after learning, particularly from a post from sgt1372 in my previous thread.

Started at 144 muscle/bone and 44 fat (188 with 23.4% fat) on 16 October.

Now at 183 lbs

Target was 180 with 15% body fat ( as I liked the body pics I saw at this level ) but I’ve now learned what that actually means. Would need to get to 153 and 27 fat.
That’s 9 lb of muscle on with 17 lbs of fat loss !!!
Unrealistic within 12 months at my age.

My new target is 175 lbs with 15% fat.
Round figures 149 muscle/bone and 26 fat.
5lb muscle increase with 13 lb fat loss.

I think with dedication to my training and diet it is achievable in 12 months, I will however target a significant leap towards my goal by the end of April 18.

sgt1372

OP: I was waiting for others to chime in again but, since no one has, here are my additional thoughts.

Your goal is actually to gain 5# of LBM (muscle is part of LBM but cannot be measured separately) and lose 18# ( not 13) of fat for a net loss of 13# from 188 to 175.

If you're at 183 now and the 5# lost from 188 was all fat, you'd still have to lose 13# more and gain 5# of muscle in the process.

I still think that it will be difficult (if not impossible for you to do on a deficit diet.

As I said b4, IMO, the best that you can you can expect to do on a deficit diet is maintain your current LBM (which you believe was 144 when you were at 188 @ 23.4% BF). So, if you can lose 13# from 188 to 175 and all of that is fat, you'd be at 175 (144 LBM & 31 BF @ 17.7%

So, IMO that would be a more realistic objective.

Now, how you go about measuring your LBM and BF becomes more important.

The bioelectrical scale (that I believe you said that you are using to measure your BF) is considered one of the least accurate and least reliable methods to use for that purpose.

That said, if you continue to use the same device it should give you an acceptable trendline for the direction of your weight & BF loss, just not one that is precise w/o a reasonable degree of error.

While every method has some degree of error, DXA scans and hydrostatic weighing are considered to be the most accurate and reliable means of measuring BF (w/in 5%) that are commercially available.

I get my BF measured every 2-3 months by each method. DXA provides more info but is always measures my BF 2-3% higher than hydro. Others report similar differences.

BTW, I've got a handheld bioelectrical device and it always measures my BF higher than DXA or hydro.

Today, the device measured me at 18.8% but my last DXA was 13.4 and last hydro was 10.9. That's an error factor of about 50% over the average of my DXA & hydro measurements!

So, your BF very well may be lower than the 23.4% last measured w/the bioelectrical scale that you used.

Since your BF objectives are so specific and since you are basing your goal on a questionable BF%, I strongly urge you to get a DXA or hydro test (preferably both) to establish a reliable baseline measurement for your current LBM & BF level.

If the result is different than what the bioelectrical scale gives you (as I expect it will), you will have to readjust your goal again. Better to do that now than wait a year to find out that your weight loss goal was based on bad data.

Then I'd recommend quarterly remeasurements w/DXA or hydro to determine if what you are doing is helping you reach your goal or not.

Good luck!

yskaldir

I don't think it's unrealistic to lose 20 pounds of fat in 6 months then build 9 pounds of muscle with 3 pounds of fat in another 6.

sgt1372

yskaldir wrote: »

I don't think it's unrealistic to lose 20 pounds of fat in 6 months then build 9 pounds of muscle with 3 pounds of fat in another 6.

Yes, if he starts on to lose the BF on a deficit diet and then switches to a surplus diet to gain the LBM (including some ancillary BF gained in the process), but the OP wants to both lose BF and gain muscle on a deficit diet at the same time.

It's the latter that, if not unrealistic, is at least imorobable.

On the other hand, psuLemon (a moderator here) just posted the following link to an article that suggests that it may be possible to gain LBM and lose BF under certain conditions:

http://sci-fit.net/2017/bulking-deficit-gaining/

The trick would be to meet those limited conditions. Easier said than done.

psuLemon

I definitely think its reasonable to gain some muscle while losing weight, especially as a noob to lifting and even more so with a moderate deficit. Personally, I'd align my goals to body fat loss while a stretch goal of muscle gain, but only if, there is an accurate way to measure.

If you dont plan on dexa or hydro or at least 7 to 11 point caliper test, than id aim for an aesethic look and track progress with tape measurements, pictures and strength gains. In the end, the semantics of the numbers dont matter as how you feel.

In my current state, my goal is abs. Whether i get that at 12% or 8% body fat isnt as important to me. If and when that happens, ill assess my size and make a decision from there on how i want to proceed.

tomjanecourtney

Thx for the comments/advice, will sit down later and digest the content, great stuff for my education.

One point, I plan to run the deficit for another 4 weeks in November, hopefully maintaining my muscle, then go onto a maintenance calorie bordering on surplus for 4 weeks in December, hopefully gaining some muscle

Using a Boditrax analyser in the gym monthly as a benchmark. Next scan 7 November.

Then re-assess beginning of January.

Target for April will then be set as I’ll know my body better.

Overall target of 175 / 15% by October 18, or sooner

Unless, of course, I learn something from the replies which changes my thoughts

anubis609

BF% accuracy is never going to be absolute unless you're dead and tissue samples are taken, but for the purposes of general goals, even having a BIA *can* be useful in the sense that it's consistently inaccurate. If the BIA measurement trends down, then you're on the right track.

Other methods, such as tape measure regarding hip to waist ratio can be beneficial in knowing that you've lost something around the real estate of abs. And plain old looking in the mirror / taking progress pictures is always a good reminder of where you visually stand. You see new dimples, bumps, cuts, striations, etc as your body adapts to your diet and training.

To paraphrase Aadam Ali: If you have fat to lose, then be in a deficit and allow strength training to support your diet. Once you've lost the fat and are ready to gain muscle, then you can "gaintain" by prioritizing strength training and having your diet support it. You don't need to be in a massive surplus to gain muscle. Literally just a couple hundred calories over maintenance is enough. Anything more just leads to more fat gain. The primary driver for muscle gain is progressive overload.

tomjanecourtney

I chose the 15% fat figure from pics ‘cause I thought it looked good with an achievable level of musculature.
Well toned with abs, a “Do you workout?” body would do fine.
I retired early about 6 yrs ago so paying for dxa scans would be a luxury, but I will treat myself to one when I my magic mirror on the wall shows I’m about there.
The http://sci-fit.net/2017/bulking-deficit-gaining/ link is encouraging. My OCD type approach could be useful.

tomjanecourtney

17 days into my 500 cal deficit I worked out today with my version of the StrongLifts 5x5 system.

Happy to report Increased weight on Deadlift, Squat, Chest press, incline Chest press and Military Press of between 5 and 10kg for the second consecutive week.
Also got a gold star from an experienced lifter for my good form.

Hope it’s not all in vain

psuLemon

tomjanecourtney wrote: »

17 days into my 500 cal deficit I worked out today with my version of the StrongLifts 5x5 system.

Happy to report Increased weight on Deadlift, Squat, Chest press, incline Chest press and Military Press of between 5 and 10kg for the second consecutive week.
Also got a gold star from an experienced lifter for my good form.

Hope it’s not all in vain

If you are gaining something out of it, it's never out of vain. And if it is, "honey badger don't give a kitten", because you can do you.

tomjanecourtney

“sgt1372
If you're at 183 now and the 5# lost from 188 was all fat, you'd still have to lose 13# more and gain 5# of muscle in the process.”

Slowly sinking in, and gaining the 5 lbs extra muscle will inevitably bring some fat with it..... as pointed out by yskaldir.
Onward and downward.

psuLemon
Had to google ‘Honey badger’

anubis609
Got some calipers but they’re still in the plastic wrapping will google them and have a go.
A Maintenance cal plan trickling over to a couple of hundred surplus is my plan.
Losing the 18lbs (13 now) first does seem to make sense....
Who is ‘Adam Ali’?

Logging my StrongLifts 5x5 progressive overload with the boditrax analyser giving me a “trendline” combined with my ‘magic mirror mirror on the wall”
Way to go, it seems.

I have had 5 or 6 ‘Friend’ requests. Frankly I don’t understand how ‘friending’ works and what advantages it gives. If I don’t know anything about them and they have never posted to my threads how can I evaluate their ‘friend’ merit.
Is there a way to see their previous posts?
You guys /gals are considered ‘honorary friends’ for the encouragement and education you have provided. Especially as you’re not just telling me what I want to hear.

Thx again.

sgt1372

tomjanecourtney wrote: »

I have had 5 or 6 ‘Friend’ requests. Frankly I don’t understand how ‘friending’ works and what advantages it gives. If I don’t know anything about them and they have never posted to my threads how can I evaluate their ‘friend’ merit. Is there a way to see their previous posts?

The "friend" thing is something that was started in the early days of the Net by Facebook. People often measured their popularity by how many friends and likes they got.

I'm not a joiner and don't base my self worth on my popularity, so never saw the point of trying to cultivate friends on Facebook or here.

In fact, I have an anonymous Facebook acct and maintain it only because some Facebook and some other sites won't let you log on w/o a Facebook acct. I certainly wouldn't advertise every moment of my life on Facebook as many do. That's one way identities get stolen.

I also routinely decline friend requests on MFP. It's not that I'm anti-social but I don't need support from others to achieve my objectives. However, as I explain in my public profile, I am more than willing to provide advice (when I think I have some insight to offer) to those who request it thru the forums or via PMs, as I have frequently done in the past.

So, don't feel like you have to accept any friend request. If you want to query the person, you can send them a PM and if you want to see their posts, they're easy to find using the search function.

Used judiciously, you could build a small cadre of maybe 4-6 people w/shared goals to help each other achieve those goals but beyond that, I do not think that collecting friends serves any useful purpose.

Use it or not as you see fit.

sgt1372

tomjanecourtney wrote: »

You guys /gals are considered ‘honorary friends’ for the encouragement and education you have provided. Especially as you’re not just telling me what I want to hear.

Thx again.

You're welcome!

Good luck in achieving your goals.

heybales

tomjanecourtney wrote: »

Got some calipers but they’re still in the plastic wrapping will google them and have a go.

Sometimes they come with instructions and table for a 2 or 3 site method, rarely the better 5 or 7 site. Mainly because you can't do all sites by yourself.

Here is place for instructions - and better way to input your figures for results.

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/SkinfoldProcedures.html

http://www.exrx.net/Testing/BodyCompSites.html

http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/BodyComp.html

tomjanecourtney

2nd Boditrax scan after 4 weeks, result looks good.
(for trend only as not accurate)

Lost 2.4 kg weight (confirmed on another scale)
2.3kg fat and only 0.1kg muscle
Body fat % 21.3 (4 weeks ago 23.4%)

Macro 40P 30F 30C
500 cal deficit (last 3wks)

(18.7 kg total weight loss since 20 Mar 17)

tomjanecourtney

Landmark weigh in this morning of 83.1 kg.
In real money that’s 12 st 14 lbs.
One of my early targets.....

heybales

Oh, and remember no scale actually measures muscle, no ability.

They estimate LBM, calculate FM.

From LBM averages for population for matching gender, age, height sometimes - muscle weight is calculated.

So you'd be expected to lose LBM, everything but FM (Fat Mass), shoot, could have been slightly dehydrated for that matter.

tomjanecourtney

The Boditrax has been installed in my gym, I know it’s only a super duper scale but it will be good for showing comparitive trends, so I’m having a scan 4weekly.
Combined with my Mirror Mirror on the Wall I will see any progress. If any Abs appear I may treat myself to a DXA scan

http://www.boditrax.com

heybales

Well, by including hands and likely doing the cross-hatch pattern to feet, it is a nicer BIA type scale.
So it probably goes for gender, age, height, it knows weight - does it ask for any other body stats? I had an Omron that used neck, heard of one that did wrist to estimate bone size.

You should watch how many people get on it at the end of their workout for a totally meaningless analysis.

Oh, do they charge, or free for members?

tomjanecourtney

£5 each or 5 scans for £15.
Health questionnaire.
Day, Sports or No clothing.
Recommended before workout.

I spoke to a Muscle Physiologist from Cambridge Uni who said it was much more accurate than home scales but not as good as Dexa. He said they erred on the higher side of Fat % as a rule and the lower your Fat % the more accurate they become.

Not as good as my rose tinted mirror though

tomjanecourtney

Hmmm! Having trouble breaking through the 13st barrier, been thereabouts for about 10 days
Already on a 500 cal deficit which I’m sticking to and training hard with weights 3/4 times a week, only losing 0.1kg of lean mass in 4 weeks.
Wondering whether to drop another 250 cals or add some dreaded cardio....
Or am I overreacting?