HRMs cannot count calories during strength training

Azdak
Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
edited September 20 in Fitness and Exercise
Since this keeps coming up, I decided I am going to write this once and then just repost it.

I know that we are all concerned with counting calories, and we all want to know our exercise calories. Unfortunately, there is no consistent way to calculate actual calories burned during strength training. I also understand that, human nature being what it is, we tend to place great faith in fixed numbers--there is something very authoritative and definitive about that number on our wrists that makes it hard to resist--even in the face of all scientific facts to the contrary. (Remember--for a long time people had trouble accepting that the earth was round).

It's just something you are going to have to live with. Heart rate monitors CANNOT count calories burned during strength training.

The most commonly accepted method for measuring the calories burned for a particular activity is to measure oxygen uptake (VO2).

During *steady-state*, *aerobic* exercise, the TCA cycle is the primary means of producing energy, and oxygen is utilized at a relatively consistent rate depending on the intensity of the exercise. There is an observable and reproducible relationship between heart rate and oxygen uptake. If we have some individual data--resting heart rate, maximum heart rate, VO2 max, weight--it is possible to make reasonably accurate estimates of caloric expenditure based on the percentage of HRmax or percentage of HRreserve at which someone is working.

From the other perspective, basic exercise activities that have a common movement--walking, running, cycling, stairclimbing--have been extensively studied and equations to predict energy cost have been developed that are applicable to most of the general population. Cross trainers/ellipticals are the exception since they do not have a common movement design.

It is under these conditions and with these types of activities that calorie estimating equations and heart rate monitor estimations are the most accurate--exercises and exercise movements that are aerobic in nature and that are performed at intensities between 40% of VO2 max and the lactate threshold.

If an activity does not meet these criteria, then prediction equations and heart rate monitors become less accurate.

When it comes to strength training, they are not accurate at all.

There is a mistaken belief among many people--repeated even by many "experts" on bodybuilding websites--that ANY increase in heart rate reflects aerobic conditioning and an increase in caloric expenditure. This is not true. The primary reason is that the increase in heart rate that occurs with strength training results from a different physiologic mechanism than it does during aerobic exercise.

The increased heart rate that occurs with aerobic exercise is the result of the need for increased cardiac output--the heart must pump more blood to meet the energy demand of the activity. Heart rate increases because of a VOLUME load.

The increased heart rate that occurs with strength training is the result of changes in intrathoracic pressure and an increase in afterload stress. There is no corresponding increase in cardiac output, and thus only a modest increase in oxygen uptake. Heart rate increases because of a PRESSURE load.

So, unlike aerobic exercise, the increased heart rate during strength training DOES NOT reflect either an increase in oxygen uptake or a significant increase in caloric expenditure. Moving quickly from machine to machine to keep the heart rate elevated does not change this fact. It is still a pressure load, not a volume load.

Does this mean that strength training is a less useful activity for weight loss, or that it does not contribute to maintaining a calorie deficit? Of course not. Strength training is a critical part of a weight loss program. Strength training may only have modest immediate calorie burn--actually it's more like a simmer--but that simmer can continue for many hours after the exercise session. But the effects of strength training are not general in nature--they are very specific to the individual, and they are affected by so many different variables, it is impossible to formulate an equation or prediction table that is applicable to the general population. Since the focus of this article is strength training and heart rate monitors, I will not go into detail about the many benefits of strength training and weight loss.

So far I have been discussing "traditional" strength training programs--i.e. structured routines consisting of "sets" and "reps" at relatively heavy intensities--up to 10RM-12RM.

What about "circuit training"? There are two basic types of circuit training--One features alternating cardio and strength stations; the exerciser performs one set at a strength station, followed by a 1-3 min cardio interval, and alternates. The second type features a circuit of strength machines only. Traditionally, circuit training routines feature higher-reps, higher speed of movement and lower resistance levels--often 40% of 1 RM. Because of the lower resistance (or in the case of the first type, the inclusion of cardio intervals), these types of circuit training will involve more of a dynamic volume load, and thus a higher caloric burn. Using HRMs is still problematic, however, because the inclusion of upper-body lifting movements and the higher resistance (compared to aerobic exercise) means that HRMs will most likely OVERESTIMATE caloric expenditure--by as much as 30%-35%. For example, a heart rate of 85% of max that would normally reflect a VO2 of 70% of max might reflect a VO2 of only 51% of VO2 max during circuit training.

Once again, a primary benefit of high-intensity circuit training, cross fit, etc is not only the calories consumed during the workout, but the longer "afterburn" or EPOC (Elevated Post Oxygen Consumption). And, as with strength training, this "afterburn" is more variable and harder to quantify.

Does this mean that heart rate monitors are not useful? Not at all. For a number of aerobic activities--most ellipticals, spin classes, running outdoors, other aerobic-style classes--they are still the best option for estimating calories. And they can be used for circuit training and some mixed classes or cross fit workouts--both as a more vague estimate of calories burned, but also for workout-to-workout comparisons. And for many people, by the time you get to the point where you can and need to start doing more intense lifting and circuit workouts (e.g. tabata, crossfit), calories burned during a workout is less relevant anyhow.
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Replies

  • Sunsh1ne
    Sunsh1ne Posts: 879 Member
    Thanks for posting this, it's very interesting.
  • lunglady
    lunglady Posts: 526 Member
    THANK YOU! I hope everyone with a HRM reads this.

    I'm a pulmonologist who reads CPETs for a living, so every time I see one of these HRM posts it sets my teeth on edge. I wish more people understood exercise physiology........:ohwell:
  • MichelleWagner50
    MichelleWagner50 Posts: 240 Member
    thanks for posting this...I had no idea they didn't work during strength training. :-)
  • vhuber
    vhuber Posts: 8,779 Member
    I understand what you posted but I do not like it because now on my three P90X weight lifting days I will need to do some cardio to balance out the calories on my diary! Thanks "DAK" !
  • havingitall
    havingitall Posts: 3,728 Member
    bump to read later
  • Nich0le
    Nich0le Posts: 2,906 Member
    thanks for posting this. I guess it's a good thing I don't try to count my strength training into my calories burned for the day :wink:
  • Iceprincessk25
    Iceprincessk25 Posts: 1,888 Member
    THANK YOU! I hope everyone with a HRM reads this.

    I'm a pulmonologist who reads CPETs for a living, so every time I see one of these HRM posts it sets my teeth on edge. I wish more people understood exercise physiology........:ohwell:

    Exercise physiology is a hard to subject for the general population to understand. It's not surprising that a lot of people get confused and have questions.

    I get exactly what your saying because I speak your language.....but I'm guessing this might still confuse some people...... :sick: :indifferent:

    AZDAK, can you give a mini lecture on the difference between the "fat-burning zone" and "cardio zone" on the machines. You're able to put it into better words than I would be able to and I think some people would benefit from that as well.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    THANK YOU! I hope everyone with a HRM reads this.

    I'm a pulmonologist who reads CPETs for a living, so every time I see one of these HRM posts it sets my teeth on edge. I wish more people understood exercise physiology........:ohwell:

    Exercise physiology is a hard to subject for the general population to understand. It's not surprising that a lot of people get confused and have questions.

    I get exactly what your saying because I speak your language.....but I'm guessing this might still confuse some people...... :sick: :indifferent:

    AZDAK, can you give a mini lecture on the difference between the "fat-burning zone" and "cardio zone" on the machines. You're able to put it into better words than I would be able to and I think some people would benefit from that as well.

    I will see what I can do--I am going to see what the response is to this post before I decide if it is something people want to read.
  • I found that a very interesting and informative read. Thank you for taking the time to post it.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    I found that a very interesting and informative read. Thank you for taking the time to post it.

    Thank YOU for bumping it back up to the top of the list .....:bigsmile:
  • havingitall
    havingitall Posts: 3,728 Member
    Thanks for posting this. I had time to read it thoroughly now and it taught me a lot that I didn't know
  • benw
    benw Posts: 211 Member
    Better written then most of the BS in the fitness mags. If you write more I will read it. :-)

    I will see what I can do--I am going to see what the response is to this post before I decide if it is something people want to read.
  • ivykivy
    ivykivy Posts: 2,970 Member
    I remember you posting something similar to this awhile back - I think it was machine vs hrm. ( I remember insignificant details). But it did kept me from spending $100 on one b/c I have irregular heartbeat due to thyroid problems.
    THANK YOU! I hope everyone with a HRM reads this.

    I'm a pulmonologist who reads CPETs for a living, so every time I see one of these HRM posts it sets my teeth on edge. I wish more people understood exercise physiology........:ohwell:

    Adzak, I really appreciate your input. Keep posting.
  • lunglady
    lunglady Posts: 526 Member
    I remember you posting something similar to this awhile back - I think it was machine vs hrm. ( I remember insignificant details). But it did kept me from spending $100 on one b/c I have irregular heartbeat due to thyroid problems.

    I can't believe that you remember that. We went off on quite a tangent. Glad you thought it was helpful. :laugh:
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    I understand what you posted but I do not like it because now on my three P90X weight lifting days I will need to do some cardio to balance out the calories on my diary! Thanks "DAK" !

    I am not familiar with all the specific exercises in P90X, but I am not sure I would call it specifically "weightlifting". It seems to belong more to these "hybrid" type workout classes and programs that are increasing in popularity.

    I would also think that, given what I see in your background and pictures, you are in that stage where higher-intensity, "performance oriented" workouts are good for you--and maybe even necessary. So, whatever you do, the benefits are going to come as much if not more from the increased "afterburn" and recovery time as from the workout itself. I am kind of in the same spot, so I think we may be on the same journey at this point.

    I have seen a lot of "recommendations" on other sites about what to do at this stage, but I don't trust any of them. Things like "don't do cardio, just lift weights" and " try "cutting" for 2 weeks, then "bulking" for 2 wks", etc. So much of this stuff is just "trainers" either repeating urban folklore or stroking themselves--I prefer more solid research.

    I don't know if you saw the post from Banks in the last few days in which he went into detail about his progress, esp over the past 9 months or so. His goal seems to be to get down to an "elite athlete" level of body fat, and I thought he did a good job of pointing out the difference between working out to lose weight (which is the "stage 1" that many of us have achieved) and training as a performance athlete, which is what may be necessary to take that next step and lose those last 10-20 pounds.

    Anyhow, I hope your "need to add cardio" comment was meant in jest, because that was not the point of the article. There is no need to change anything that is working for you. My goal is just to make sure people have the information they need to make informed decisions.
  • pettmybunny
    pettmybunny Posts: 1,986 Member
    Ok... I get that when I'm lifting on machines, and using heavier weights, that my HRM isn't going to be accurate. But I'm confused about if I'm in the strong bodies class at the Y. One of the instructors calls it endurance lifiting, whatever that means, lol. But it's an hour long class, using lighter weights. For the length of whatever song is on, we work different muscle groups. I mean, I'm generally using only 5 to 10 lbs on the bar at a time, but by the end of the song, my muscles are shaking. I'm huffing and puffing, and it makes me think it's not just a pressure thing like you were explaining. Maybe it is, though. Would you mind explaining that one to me? Thanks.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Ok... I get that when I'm lifting on machines, and using heavier weights, that my HRM isn't going to be accurate. But I'm confused about if I'm in the strong bodies class at the Y. One of the instructors calls it endurance lifiting, whatever that means, lol. But it's an hour long class, using lighter weights. For the length of whatever song is on, we work different muscle groups. I mean, I'm generally using only 5 to 10 lbs on the bar at a time, but by the end of the song, my muscles are shaking. I'm huffing and puffing, and it makes me think it's not just a pressure thing like you were explaining. Maybe it is, though. Would you mind explaining that one to me? Thanks.

    A general rule of thumb is: the higher the resistance, the less the cardiovascular involvement and the greater muscle strength gain, and vice versa.

    An "endurance" class is going to use higher resistance than doing regular cardio exercise, but not as much as a "strength training" workout. If you are doing a lot of reps, such a workout can primarily involve the glycolytic pathway which would result in the feelings you describe, but not produce the same Immediate calorie burn. So, no, it's not a "pressure thing", but it's not completely aerobic, either. (there is an "aerobic" component, especially during any recovery time).

    Again, the idea is not to say that non-aerobic workouts are not effective at burning calories or losing fat. Some studies show that they may be VERY effective for some people--possibly/probably more effective than traditional cardio workouts. My point is only that the physiologic mechanism is such that the calorie counters on HRMs are not an accurate estimate for these types of workouts because the effect is so variable among individuals and because it is usually much more long-lasting.

    So I am discussing more the *technical* details of HRMs than I am the quality of the various workouts. The practical issue is that, for those of us who are doing these types of workouts, it is more challenging to quantify the overall caloric expenditure and thus we are kind of back to the ol' "trial and error" method.

    PS: Just looked at your profile--my stepson goes to NMU--he just started this year. Sometimes I go to one of the live webcams on the NMU campus just to watch the wind blow and the snow pile up. Woo hoo! Always looking for good restaurants up there for when we go to visit, if you have any recommendations. Nice town, but the last 150 miles of driving (from the Chicago area) always seems to last f-o-r-e-v-e-r.
  • arewethereyet
    arewethereyet Posts: 18,702 Member
    Nice info, put in laymen's terms. Thank you.

    I have always used the calories burned for my 90 minute workout off my HRM. I feel it is a good generalization of what I continue to burn for the rest of the day because I stoked the fires.

    I have to have some numbers to work with. Ignoring all caloric intake and expentidure is what got me here in the first place!

    Thanks again for explaining this in a way I can understand and remember.

    1.My HR is higher during aerobics due to oxygen intake.

    2. My HR is higher when lifting weights because more blood is pumping all at once.

    Is this right?
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Nice info, put in laymen's terms. Thank you.

    I have always used the calories burned for my 90 minute workout off my HRM. I feel it is a good generalization of what I continue to burn for the rest of the day because I stoked the fires.

    I have to have some numbers to work with. Ignoring all caloric intake and expentidure is what got me here in the first place!

    Thanks again for explaining this in a way I can understand and remember.

    1.My HR is higher during aerobics due to oxygen intake.

    2. My HR is higher when lifting weights because more blood is pumping all at once.

    Is this right?

    No, the HR is pumping when lifting weights because you are NOT pumping blood all at once. Essentially, the compressive forces kind of cause everything to slow down and the heart has to beat faster to restore balance of pressure.
  • vhuber
    vhuber Posts: 8,779 Member
    So if HRM can not count strength training cals then it doesn't count on yoga either right?
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    So if HRM can not count strength training cals then it doesn't count on yoga either right?

    I am not sure what kind of readings you get w/yoga. The yoga I am thinking about is not really going to raise HR that much. My understanding is that Polar HRM are not really accurate when HR is under 100 bpm. Again, at lower intensities and HRs, HR is not always going to be driven by metabolic demand--it will also be affected by things like postural changes, etc.

    I am aware that there are some different types of yoga out there that, as I understand, are performed more vigorously. I would think that style might be more like circuit training.

    Again, once you get into these "hybrid" types of activities, it becomes more difficult to come up with guidelines, estimates, etc that are applicable to the entire population. Some graduates students need to get busy and do some research.

    I find it ironic that, when I was in graduate school, I really struggled to come up with a thesis topic. (Ultimately, the school closed soon after we finished our oral comprehensive exams and they waived the thesis requirement). Now, I have about 20 different things I'd like to research.
  • pettmybunny
    pettmybunny Posts: 1,986 Member

    PS: Just looked at your profile--my stepson goes to NMU--he just started this year. Sometimes I go to one of the live webcams on the NMU campus just to watch the wind blow and the snow pile up. Woo hoo! Always looking for good restaurants up there for when we go to visit, if you have any recommendations. Nice town, but the last 150 miles of driving (from the Chicago area) always seems to last f-o-r-e-v-e-r.

    How is your stepson enjoying the frozen tundra? We've actually had a nice couple of days, temps were up to 40 yesterday. I came up to go to NMU, and never left, lol. I tell DH that after the kids are through college, (I'm assuming they'll go to Northern and live at home for free), I want to sell the house and move somewhere a bit warmer. He still wants snow, but I can get him a bit further south anyways.

    Thanks for the explanation about calories burned. I won't pretend to really understand, but..... I kinda get the gist.
  • arewethereyet
    arewethereyet Posts: 18,702 Member
    Nice info, put in laymen's terms. Thank you.

    I have always used the calories burned for my 90 minute workout off my HRM. I feel it is a good generalization of what I continue to burn for the rest of the day because I stoked the fires.

    I have to have some numbers to work with. Ignoring all caloric intake and expentidure is what got me here in the first place!

    Thanks again for explaining this in a way I can understand and remember.

    1.My HR is higher during aerobics due to oxygen intake.

    2. My HR is higher when lifting weights because more blood is pumping all at once.

    Is this right?

    No, the HR is pumping when lifting weights because you are NOT pumping blood all at once. Essentially, the compressive forces kind of cause everything to slow down and the heart has to beat faster to restore balance of pressure.

    Ok, that makes sense. All I know is I love muscles!! LOL
  • vhuber
    vhuber Posts: 8,779 Member
    So if HRM can not count strength training cals then it doesn't count on yoga either right?

    I am not sure what kind of readings you get w/yoga. The yoga I am thinking about is not really going to raise HR that much. My understanding is that Polar HRM are not really accurate when HR is under 100 bpm. Again, at lower intensities and HRs, HR is not always going to be driven by metabolic demand--it will also be affected by things like postural changes, etc.

    I am aware that there are some different types of yoga out there that, as I understand, are performed more vigorously. I would think that style might be more like circuit training.

    Again, once you get into these "hybrid" types of activities, it becomes more difficult to come up with guidelines, estimates, etc that are applicable to the entire population. Some graduates students need to get busy and do some research.

    I find it ironic that, when I was in graduate school, I really struggled to come up with a thesis topic. (Ultimately, the school closed soon after we finished our oral comprehensive exams and they waived the thesis requirement). Now, I have about 20 different things I'd like to research.
    With P90X Yoga your HR is ABOVE 100 and yes I have the F11, most times it was 140+ to 153! You are not huffin like some workouts but your HR does get up there!
  • slieber
    slieber Posts: 765 Member
    Okay. now I'm truly confused:

    I do 11 hours of ballet - 9 of those on pointe - per week. On average, my HRM says I burn about 350-450 cals per hour (depends on the teacher and the effort I choose to put in). I also do cross-training at the gym - at least 3, usually 4 times per week of 30 mins of cardio, two times per week upper body weights and at least 1 lower body, if not two (depends on time available).

    My question: Do I count those cals or not?

    This week, my HRM showed I burned over 5000 in exercise. I lost 1.2 pounds, eating all of my regular WW points, the 35 "discretionary" points and almost all of my exercise points.

    Today, I burned, allegedly, according to my HRM, around 190 cals in strength training (it was about an hour's worth). My cardio, which was prior to this, was 30 mins and about 200 cals. on the elliptical.

    Do I believe my HRM, regardless of strength training?

    In the end, I think this is what it boils down to....do we count those cals burned during strength training?
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Okay. now I'm truly confused:

    I do 11 hours of ballet - 9 of those on pointe - per week. On average, my HRM says I burn about 350-450 cals per hour (depends on the teacher and the effort I choose to put in). I also do cross-training at the gym - at least 3, usually 4 times per week of 30 mins of cardio, two times per week upper body weights and at least 1 lower body, if not two (depends on time available).

    My question: Do I count those cals or not?

    This week, my HRM showed I burned over 5000 in exercise. I lost 1.2 pounds, eating all of my regular WW points, the 35 "discretionary" points and almost all of my exercise points.

    Today, I burned, allegedly, according to my HRM, around 190 cals in strength training (it was about an hour's worth). My cardio, which was prior to this, was 30 mins and about 200 cals. on the elliptical.

    Do I believe my HRM, regardless of strength training?

    In the end, I think this is what it boils down to....do we count those cals burned during strength training?

    I know it is confusing--quite frankly, this is not stuff they teach in textbooks, so even degreed professionals have to figure it out.

    Again, I want to emphasize--the point of this article is not saying that no calories are expended during these activities, it's that HRMs cannot accurate and consistently measure those calories. A HRM does NOT measure calories--it measures heart rate. The only time it can estimate calories is when an increase in heart rate reflects an increase in VO2. For anything else, it is no more accurate than a mood ring.

    You seem to be questioning whether ballet training is an aerobic exercise. Depending on the structure of the class, a few studies of ballet classes I found show that VO2 values for center training average 5.5-7.5 METS. That's an aerobic level of training, so I would expect your HRM values would be as accurate as they would be for any similar aerobic exercise.

    I have already addressed circuit training and the variable response.

    As for strength, I have tried to explain that the primary energy expenditure with weight training occurs during the hours AFTER the exercise session--the calories burned during the session are modest at best. Given the inexact nature of calorie counting in general, under ANY conditions, I would consider weight training calories to be a "bonus", a "cushion" if you will to even out some of the inexactness. And the calories burned during recovery from workout are so variable, there is no practical way to measure them.
  • slightingscale
    slightingscale Posts: 1,209 Member
    thanks. good to know.
  • Azdak,

    Thanks for posting, it helps me understand the issue better. That being said, by any chance have you seen or read the article in a recent Men's Health which discusses this exact question? There is some new research using "new methods" which seems to indicate that the calorie burn from weight training could be up to 65% more than was previously thought.

    I don't have the article handy, but will see if I can include the references later this evening. I would be curious (and appreciative) to hear your take on this.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    P.S. Sorry if this adds to the confusion :-)
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Azdak,

    Thanks for posting, it helps me understand the issue better. That being said, by any chance have you seen or read the article in a recent Men's Health which discusses this exact question? There is some new research using "new methods" which seems to indicate that the calorie burn from weight training could be up to 65% more than was previously thought.

    I don't have the article handy, but will see if I can include the references later this evening. I would be curious (and appreciative) to hear your take on this.

    Thanks,

    Alan

    P.S. Sorry if this adds to the confusion :-)

    It doesn't look like Mens Health posts any of their articles online--maybe I can find a copy at the library. I am not sure it will be any great revelation. It's not a question of "does weight training burn calories?"--the question is how to quantify that effect. And, again, this topic is more about whether or not HRMs can measure that calorie burn.

    But thanks for the heads up--this topic is becoming increasingly important as more people utilize strength training, cross fit, circuit training, etc as part of their routines. I expect a lot of research will be done in the area in the future.
  • slieber
    slieber Posts: 765 Member

    As for strength, I have tried to explain that the primary energy expenditure with weight training occurs during the hours AFTER the exercise session--the calories burned during the session are modest at best. Given the inexact nature of calorie counting in general, under ANY conditions, I would consider weight training calories to be a "bonus", a "cushion" if you will to even out some of the inexactness. And the calories burned during recovery from workout are so variable, there is no practical way to measure them.

    That's what I wanted to know. Thanks. At least I can just use what I see, and if I end up burning more because of the "afterburn" then I'll consider it a gift. :-)
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