PEOPLE WHO WENT TO LAW SCHOOL--Advice please!
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Okay, so I'm thinking a lot about my career lately--or future career--I graduate in 2014. I will have 100-120k worth of debt. ((sigh)) I THINK that big law is just not right for me but I feel this overwhelming pressure to do it anyway, at least for a while. What would/did you do? This kind of job would allow me to pay off my loans within 1.5-2 years. Is it worth being MISERABLE for 1.5-2 years? Am I being melodramatic when I say "No, I won't do it. It's not worth it." ??
So, a few questions:
1. Did you enjoy law school?
2. What is your current job? Do you enjoy it?
3. Do you have a lot of debt? Did you have a lot of debt when you graduated?
4. Any advice, tips, pointers, etc?
So, a few questions:
1. Did you enjoy law school?
2. What is your current job? Do you enjoy it?
3. Do you have a lot of debt? Did you have a lot of debt when you graduated?
4. Any advice, tips, pointers, etc?
0
Replies
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I was NOT a Law student.. I'm actually going back to school 2 years late.. :ohwell:
BUT I just wanted to say that if you aren't HAPPY with it, don't do it
You have to do what you think will make you happier in the long run. Life is too short! :bigsmile:
On the other hand, law sounds like a very interesting thing to study, I'm sure it is very versatile too.. I wanted to go to school for Graphic Design. I decided to go with the degree that I'll be able to use most, and one that I could afford..
Trust me, I did think about what was going to make me happy in the long run.. I talked it over with my boyfriend.. we talked about what I could do in GD later on.. and I made the best decision
Good Luck!!0 -
Why do you think it would make you miserable? The way I see it is you have to live as if each day were your last, but also as if you were going to live to be 100. If working in 'big law' risks you making decisions you'd regret the rest of your life, then don't, but also remember that if you do try that route and don't like it, you CAN quit!
I've known a number of people who made their money young, then could do what they wanted, with no mortgage to pay or anything. I suspect what really makes you happy has nothing to do with work or money, rather love and friendship.0 -
I have no experience with law school or loans - but I do have experience with going with my gut. From what I know of you, your passion is fitness/exercise/health and helping others. I have never known of any passion with law (although, I know you throught a fitness web site, so that could be a reason why). Regardless - if you were a semester shy of graduating, I would say finish it up...but, you still have 2 years to go, and that's a LONG time to do something your heart isn't in.
The responsible side says to continue with law school so you can get a get job and pay off your loans - that would make things financially much easier for you in the future. But, what will that do for your level of happiness? If you are going to lose 2 years of your life to being unhappy, and then countless more years being a lawyer you don't want to be, then IMO that's too much of your life wasted by what you "should do." What does your gut say?
It's a big decision - but trust yourself enough to know you will make the right one 0 -
I'm assuming you are graduating law school in 2014? (as opposed to undergrad...)
You making a fairly big assumption -- that you will be able to get a job in Biglaw when you graduate. (If I'm mistaken and you already have something locked up, then I apologize.) A lot of people make this mistake and think they will get a job making 6 figures when they graduate. The reality is, most don't. If you are graduating in 2014, you should've spent this past summer working in Biglaw, or at worst be interviewing for and locking up a Biglaw job for next summer right now. If you don't get a summer associate position at a Biglaw firm, it can be very difficult (although not impossible) to get hired full time when you graduate. The people who tend to get the Biglaw jobs are attending Top 20 schools or are in the Top 5% of their class at the lower ranked schools. Biglaw has been hugely affected by the economy and jobs are not as easy to come by as they used to be. If you don't already, please start reading the blog Above the Law. There are loads of law graduates who are still struggling to find jobs -- in any field, much less Biglaw.
That said, if you are able to lock something up in Biglaw, you should take it. Not only will you make good money, but you will learn a lot and meet a lot of people. It is a nice thing to have on your resume going forward. You may even discover that you don't hate it. (Why do you think you'll hate it so much?) But don't be afraid to think outside the box in terms of law jobs -- i.e. in house counsel, midsize firms, smaller firms. You might be surprised at the pay in those areas as well.
To answer your questions:
1. Did you enjoy law school? I loved it.
2. What is your current job? Do you enjoy it? I'm a patent litigation attorney, and I love it.
3. Do you have a lot of debt? Did you have a lot of debt when you graduated? No debt. I paid with savings (I worked prior to law school) and scholarships.
Take this advice as you will -- I'm a realist and not into the whole "I have to love every minute of my job" mindset that seems to prevalent now. In my view, you don't turn down a job making big money, at least when you are starting out, and you would be foolish to turn down a job in Biglaw if it is offered to you. Later on you can go off and save the world if you want.0 -
yes i enjoyed law school. yes i hae alot of debt. i have enjoyed every job ive had in my life. pay back your debt and suffer through it. check out federal programs for loan forgiveness.0
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I'm not a lawyer, but lots of my best pals are, as well as having lived with lawyers.
Law school seems to cause most everyone going through it to pretty much sacrifice anything else going on during those years. (social life, dating, etc). Not completely, but it gets severely trimmed down.
This is true, however, of many other degrees. Like any other degree, some enjoyed the challenge, some didn't, and no one enjoys every single aspect of it.
The thing, imo, that sets lawyers as well as doctors apart, is what they endure the first years out of school. Often (not always, but often) either of those professions, after graduation, sucks the life out of you completely. 80 to 120 hour work weeks, staggering exhaustion.
Still takes eons to pay back debts.
If you are in a relationship, it could suffer during such absence. It has to be rock solid to survive that level of neglect. If you are raising children during those first years after graduation, you'll need Skype to keep up with your children. Whatever other interests you had going in, might be gone by the time your first years are finished.
Less stress/time/cash with smaller hospitals or firms.
Overtime, depending on which area you specialize in, you do mostly get your life back.
Not all lawyers nor doctors are making mongo bucks, btw, it very much depends on the area you specialize in, and the size firm you are with.
Best of luck with your decision. If you truly loathe something, imo, no amount of cash is worth doing something you loathe if you have other options.
Being rich does not equate to being happy, although many ppl think it is the same thing.
If you DO have a passion, consider investing into THAT instead, and the chances of you being a HAPPIER, more fulfilled person may be higher.0 -
Law school does not mean you'll get a cushy job as a lawyer----I think the unemployment rate for lawyers is higher than most occupations (at least in my area).
I have maaaaaanny family members and friends that chose that route (I chose MBA) and 5 years after graduation they are still struggling.
Like the others said- don't chase a paycheck, go after something you love
There are a lot of good articles on msn, careerbuilder, etc that point out career paths that have a good payout-- match them with your interests and that might give you some ideas
Sorry about the student debt, I'm sure its scary0 -
If you're not head over heels in love with law DO NOT GO TO LAW SCHOOL. I thought about going for a while, and was lukewarm about the idea. Everything I've read, heard, seen, etc. says that you should only go unless you're sure that's what you want to do with your life. If you're over $100,000 in debt now, you'll AT LEAST double that in law school. And law school is a long term investment. You won't pay all your loans back in a year or two. My dad is a lawyer and told me that he worked his *kitten* off and gave up a lot of luxuries for years to be able to pay back his loans... he was FORTY by the time he paid them off. Law school is not something you do to waste time, or avoid getting a job, or avoid paying back your loans. It's not something to do "just for a little while," which was my plan too. DON'T DO IT. Find something else, because there really aren't as many law jobs out there as schools and the media would have you think. There are a ton of graduates who, yeah have jobs, but are actually working outside of the field of law. You'd have to be incredibly lucky, smart, and hustle really hard to get internships and get a job. So, if you decide you love law and don't want to do anything else with your life (and I mean that- you'll be giving up all your free time for at least the first 5-10 years of working) then go. Otherwise, find another solution.0
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Let me clarify--I WILL finish law school and I will LIKELY get a firm job paying 6 figures (this is an assumption but it's a well justified one). I guess I kind of know what I'll end up doing but I just wanted others' perspectives.
If things go as they should then in 10.5 months I'll have an offer at a big firm. I'll take it--study for the bar (and hopefully pass it), work in big law until I just can't take it anymore and pay off as much of my loans as possible. It's 3-4 years (most likely) of being less than perfectly happy and I guess I can endure that--I didn't LOVE undergrad but I got through it and did well. I'll do the same in this chapter of my life.
I guess it's possible that I won't be miserable at all but we shall see. Time will tell.0 -
I used to do recruiting at a large law firm and my husband is employed in Big Law. You need to go in realizing that you will work a lot of hours. However, as above poster mentioned: did you Summer anywhere? Because if you didn't, finding a job at a top law firm is not easy - especially in today's economy. If you have that much debt and are offered a job you should absolutely take it and aggressively pay off your debts. If you hate it - devote three or four years with low rent/low expenses and work your butt off and use your bonuses to pay off your debt ... then, use your degree and your experience to do something more enjoyable. My husband hates his job and we are trying to make a game plan to pay off the remaining debt to move to something with less hours ... but it is far more difficult once you have kids and a mortgage to pay.
There are advantages to big law firm life - it is a lot of hours and high stress, but can be very rewarding when you are on an interesting case! Just get used to people yelling - that is how lawyers talk. :P0 -
This kind of job would allow me to pay off my loans within 1.5-2 years. Is it worth being MISERABLE for 1.5-2 years? Am I being melodramatic when I say "No, I won't do it. It's not worth it." ??
I am an attorney, and I have right at $100k in student loan debt. My monthly payments on a a 20 year graduated repayment run right at $650 per month. I do not work in BigLaw; I work in consumer-end foreclosure and bankruptcy, i.e., a typical lawyer job.
If you have the opportunity to spend two years to pay off $100k in debt, you should absolutely take it. It would be like working out - you hit your workouts hard for a while, then when you hit your goals, you hit the beach with six pack abs. I would argue that you should spend four or five years there, save up $100k or more in cash, then go do what you want to do.
My wife and I make solid money, but we still live in an apartment and still watch our money closely. I look at the $800+ per month combined we pay out in student loans each month as such an economic waste. I want to buy a house, I want to start funding my Roth IRA, and I want to start saving for my potential children's college education, but all that is secondary to paying the vig on my student loans - and we're doing better than a lot of others I went to school with.
To answer your questions:
(1) I did like law school a little bit. It was hard, and I did okay (middle of my class) at a regional, public law school (About half my debt comes from a private undergrad college, which was a big financial mistake).
(2) I am currently an attorney, and I practice in consumer affairs, primarily in foreclosure / loan modification / bankruptcy. Practice is nothing like law school.
(3) As far as debt, I am right at $100k in student loans; we do not carry credit card debt and my car loan is basically paid off. No mortgage yet, but we'll be buying a house next year.
(4) My tip: build your financial fortress. Four or five years of misery that leaves you with a net worth north of six figures will pay in spades later; then, live below your means. Nobody says "I wish I had taken out more debt."0 -
I used to do recruiting at a large law firm and my husband is employed in Big Law. You need to go in realizing that you will work a lot of hours. However, as above poster mentioned: did you Summer anywhere? Because if you didn't, finding a job at a top law firm is not easy - especially in today's economy. If you have that much debt and are offered a job you should absolutely take it and aggressively pay off your debts. If you hate it - devote three or four years with low rent/low expenses and work your butt off and use your bonuses to pay off your debt ... then, use your degree and your experience to do something more enjoyable. My husband hates his job and we are trying to make a game plan to pay off the remaining debt to move to something with less hours ... but it is far more difficult once you have kids and a mortgage to pay.
There are advantages to big law firm life - it is a lot of hours and high stress, but can be very rewarding when you are on an interesting case! Just get used to people yelling - that is how lawyers talk. :P
Thank you for this . I think I would feel differently about the whole idea if I weren't in love. I did summer at a very good firm and I'll be doing another summer stint before graduating. I guess I didn't HATE the work, I just hated the thought of being a slave to my work at the expense of my family/future husband. I'd ideally like a job in house but that requires that I "pay my dues" so assuming I get a position I'll take it.0 -
That's great that you are likely to have something lined up. You are better off than 75% of your classmates. That said, my opinion doesn't change. Take the Biglaw job and suck it up for a few years. (It sounds like you are planning to do this anyway.) Aside from the money aspect, there is a lot to learn and a lot of very intelligent people to learn it from. It's all fine and good to say "follow your dream," but following dreams doesn't pay the bills and you don't want those student loans looming over your head. You will never be perfectly happy in any job, in my opinion. There is a reason it's called "work." Sometimes you just have to hope that on an overall level you enjoy what you do and the people you get to work with, even if every day isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Good luck to you!0 -
This kind of job would allow me to pay off my loans within 1.5-2 years. Is it worth being MISERABLE for 1.5-2 years? Am I being melodramatic when I say "No, I won't do it. It's not worth it." ??
I am an attorney, and I have right at $100k in student loan debt. My monthly payments on a a 20 year graduated repayment run right at $650 per month. I do not work in BigLaw; I work in consumer-end foreclosure and bankruptcy, i.e., a typical lawyer job.
If you have the opportunity to spend two years to pay off $100k in debt, you should absolutely take it. It would be like working out - you hit your workouts hard for a while, then when you hit your goals, you hit the beach with six pack abs. I would argue that you should spend four or five years there, save up $100k or more in cash, then go do what you want to do.
My wife and I make solid money, but we still live in an apartment and still watch our money closely. I look at the $800+ per month combined we pay out in student loans each month as such an economic waste. I want to buy a house, I want to start funding my Roth IRA, and I want to start saving for my potential children's college education, but all that is secondary to paying the vig on my student loans - and we're doing better than a lot of others I went to school with.
To answer your questions:
(1) I did like law school a little bit. It was hard, and I did okay (middle of my class) at a regional, public law school (About half my debt comes from a private undergrad college, which was a big financial mistake).
(2) I am currently an attorney, and I practice in consumer affairs, primarily in foreclosure / loan modification / bankruptcy. Practice is nothing like law school.
(3) As far as debt, I am right at $100k in student loans; we do not carry credit card debt and my car loan is basically paid off. No mortgage yet, but we'll be buying a house next year.
(4) My tip: build your financial fortress. Four or five years of misery that leaves you with a net worth north of six figures will pay in spades later; then, live below your means. Nobody says "I wish I had taken out more debt."
Thank you for your honesty and advice. I greatly appreciate it.0 -
That's great that you are likely to have something lined up. You are better off than 75% of your classmates. That said, my opinion doesn't change. Take the Biglaw job and suck it up for a few years. (It sounds like you are planning to do this anyway.) Aside from the money aspect, there is a lot to learn and a lot of very intelligent people to learn it from. It's all fine and good to say "follow your dream," but following dreams doesn't pay the bills and you don't want those student loans looming over your head. You will never be perfectly happy in any job, in my opinion. There is a reason it's called "work." Sometimes you just have to hope that on an overall level you enjoy what you do and the people you get to work with, even if every day isn't all sunshine and rainbows.
Good luck to you!
Thank you very much! I greatly appreciate your advice. Part of me finds it absolutely exciting and I'd LOVE to do it if it didn't seem like a choice between having a life and having a career. Does that make sense?0 -
It's a love/hate relationship for most students. It's "fun," and challenging, yet at the same time a complete pain the balls.1. Did you enjoy law school?
Private practice. And yes, I love it.2. What is your current job? Do you enjoy it?
You will be paying off student loans for the rest of your life. Enjoy.3. Do you have a lot of debt? Did you have a lot of debt when you graduated?
The happiest lawyers you'll ever meet, are no longer lawyers.4. Any advice, tips, pointers, etc?0 -
I graduated from law school in April. I have about 50k in debt, which thankfully does not come due for payments for another year. I live in Canada, so when you graduate you are not qualified to be a lawyer -- you have to work for a year gaining experience, and complete another course, as well as writing your bar test, so I will not be licensed until July 2013.
I hated law school, but it is nothing like legal practice. I work at a tiny office for below-minimum-wage with two sole practitioners because there is an over abundance of law graduates and a minimal number of jobs, and because I want to do family and full service law (so obviously, I was avoiding biglaw). I do not have goals of a 6-digit paycheque, rather to contribute a decent living to my two-income household with my spouse.
I do not believe anyone regrets law school, even if you do not end up in practice, there are many career doors in a number of fields which you will be qualified for. As someone said above, my focus has been and is on handling my debt so I can have financial comfort a few years down the road.
I am lucky enough to have a spouse with a reliable paycheque and benefits, which allows me the "wiggle room" to take time to establish my own career, and hopefully make up for it in the long run.
I am not sure my answer is making sense, but feel free to send a message if anything could use more expansion,0 -
Not me. But my brother is a lawyer. He initially worked in the private sector at a big law firm. But didn't like. He went to the DOJ. Federal prosecutor. Now he is an Assistant Director at the SEC, Boston section. He loves his job. One of his big cases involved recovering over $40 million in a fraud scheme for small investors.
SEC is the only government division that pays equivalent to what private sector corporate attorneys earn.
Check the employment rate for law school grads. In many areas there is a glut of lawyers.
But in specific ares like patent law, there is a strong need.
Stay away from NY. The NY Bar just passed a "protect existing lawyers" requirement. All new lawyers, if they wish to practice law in NY are required to work for nothing for a minimum number of "billable hours." The only reason to pass such a measure is to discourage new lawyers, other than zealots and ideologues from coming to NY. (News flash, it is not volunteering when it is forced)0 -
Oh I have something else to add, I summered at a "biglaw" firm previously, so knew it was NOT for me. This doesn't mean it isn't a great opportunity for someone else, but work-life balance is a lot more important to me than big money and big names on my resume. I am much happier working on family and estate files from 9-4:30 for significantly less money, than I was working on corporate transactions for 50-70 hour weeks. I think everyone can find their "fit", but I'll caution you:
Many people I know thought they would hate "________" (tax law, family law, corporate law, WHAT EVER), then when they went to work they found out it was the very thing they loved. I actually thought I would LOVE big firm life, and simply put -- I didn't, and had to soul search for what would actually work for me.
I think at some point you just need to bite the bullet and try something, and if that means gaining some cash and experience at the biglaw firm, at least you will learn something about yourself, and be better able to navigate your future career choices -- with less debt to boot!0 -
Okay, so I'm thinking a lot about my career lately--or future career--I graduate in 2014. I will have 100-120k worth of debt. ((sigh)) I THINK that big law is just not right for me but I feel this overwhelming pressure to do it anyway, at least for a while. What would/did you do? This kind of job would allow me to pay off my loans within 1.5-2 years. Is it worth being MISERABLE for 1.5-2 years? Am I being melodramatic when I say "No, I won't do it. It's not worth it." ??
So, a few questions:
1. Did you enjoy law school?
2. What is your current job? Do you enjoy it?
3. Do you have a lot of debt? Did you have a lot of debt when you graduated?
4. Any advice, tips, pointers, etc?
My husband graduated law school & passed the BAR in '09. He went to a good school & was very lucky to get a great job after, he's had a few offers from partners at other firms because they've been impressed with the way he handles cases. He does workmans comp defense. He kinda fell into it while working in law school.
He seemed to be the rare one where it didn't consume his whole life & wasnt living in the library like most of his class was the 1st year. The fist year is the hardest, he said he learned most othat first year.
Quite a few of his classmates, even in the top 10%, weren't even able to find jobs for more than $50k/year here in Southern CA. Some got offered Jobs at huge firms & then were asked to wait a year to start & they'd pay them $75k to wait because they didn't have the money to pay them $120k+.
Law school gave us about $175k worth of debt. That's all student loans, no scholarships etc.
My advice, pay off your debt as soon as you can. Jobs haven't come easy to lawyers the last few years & I know several people who are in law school or just passed the BAR who are struggling to find a decent paying job. Don't knock it til you try it, not all law is "big" law. It's. It like it is on tv. You don't k ow what mind of job you'll get after law school, there are MANY directions you could go.
Advice: Get good work experience on your resume ASAP. They don't just like to see a good school or grades. That's what made the difference for my husband getting a good job after law school.0 -
Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'm doing things so as to create the most opportunities for myself--I realize it's not all rainbows and sunshines and I'm prepared for that. I'm just hoping that my next summer is amazing and I'll look forward to law firm life (to some degree). I'll work my *kitten* off--secure an offer and try to be optimistic!0
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