When to bulk?

Tricep_A_Tops · October 2012

it depends on your goals.

if you want to be bigger, go ahead and bulk.
if you want to be skinny with a 6 pack and no muscles, then cut.

This is the exact reason why alot of guys that want a 6 pack never get one. At 6"4, 223lbs and skinny fat he needs to actually have ab's before he can have a 6-pack, He needs to add LM. develop his abs and then cut.

ilovedeadlifts · October 2012

it depends on your goals.

if you want to be bigger, go ahead and bulk.
if you want to be skinny with a 6 pack and no muscles, then cut.

This is the exact reason why alot of guys that want a 6 pack never get one. At 6"4 and 223lbs and skinny fat he needs to actually have ab's before he can have a 6-pack, He needs to add LM. develop his abs and then cut.

everyone has a six pack pretty much.......you just have to diet.

I wasn't reccommending that he cuts, but it depends on his goals. if he wants to look like a soccer player and just be lean, he should probably cut. if he wants to be jacked and strong he should probably bulk..

Tricep_A_Tops · October 2012

You shouldn't be thinking about bulking until you've got visible abs.

Bulking = calorie suplus and gaining fat along with muscle.

The metabolism raising effects of more muscle are grossly overstated.

Take advantage of your noob strength gains while cutting down the first time. Whe you switch over to bulking then you should be strong enough to actually gain some muscle.

WAT??????

???????????????? Strong enough to actually gain some muscle??

Oddly enough, that's the one part that I understood. Sounds weird but I know what he means. It's only about 50% correct tho.

Strong enough to gain some muscle.....

If you are squatting say 0.75x BW for example, unless you look like a competitive marathoner, your are so neurologically inefficeint with your strength that you aren't strong enough to really work your muscles all that well. When you are in the noob gains area, able to make rapid session to session strength gains on a linear progression, you're muscles aren't really getting worked as well as you think they are. The gains come fast and furious whether on a surplus or deficit diet-wise. It is only once you get strong enough to start really accounting for fatigue, where lifts begin stalling, that you are working your muscles with high enough neural effiency to really start packing on mass at an efficient rate.

Here's a good article by Lyle McDonald on why you should diet down first.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html

Basically, muscle gain is most efficient in the 10-15% BF area. Above and below that a greater % of your surplus tends to go to fat.

The shortest distance between point A and B, when fat loss and muscle gain is the goal, is to lose most of the fat first before beginning to eat for muscle gain.

I would have to totally disagree with this, most men and women who lift heavy prove it wrong each and every day. I gained more LM. above 15% BF. than I have since I dropped below 15% BF. If I listened to you I wouldnt be anywhere close to were I am today and I had to lose 83 lbs.

Tricep_A_Tops · October 2012

it depends on your goals.

if you want to be bigger, go ahead and bulk.
if you want to be skinny with a 6 pack and no muscles, then cut.

This is the exact reason why alot of guys that want a 6 pack never get one. At 6"4 and 223lbs and skinny fat he needs to actually have ab's before he can have a 6-pack, He needs to add LM. develop his abs and then cut.

everyone has a six pack pretty much.......you just have to diet.

I wasn't reccommending that he cuts, but it depends on his goals. if he wants to look like a soccer player and just be lean, he should probably cut. if he wants to be jacked and strong he should probably bulk..

No they dont, I didnt prior to gaining weight. Most guys never have visable abs regardless of their age or how low their BF% is. How many guys have you known that were slim, thin etc. didnt workout and had a 6 pack?

MellyGibson · October 2012

I have heard more times than I can remember, "Abs are made in the kitchen." This is absolutely true - at least for me.

While I did start a weight-training program (and have since moved on to more lifting), only after I switched my diet up did I begin to see my abs.

I still have a LONG way to go (unless you ask my trainer, who says I'm very close), but switching up my diet was the way I saw my midsection flatten out and my ab muscles start to peek out.

Then again, I'm a girl, and unless I start taking testosterone supplements I won't "bulk" up.

SideSteel · October 2012

I would base it on a few things:

1) If you're nearing ~10-11% bodyfat you might want to bulk.
or
2) In some situations with skinny-fat, bulking may be a better decision than cutting, but you can't really assess this without scrutinizing physique as stats won't always tell you the full story.

Just as an example, when I was skinny fat, I took a few months at maintenance and lifted heavy, and I decided that I had enough LBM to do a short cut phase. However, there's some physiques (also skinny fat) with so little lean mass that even with a small gut, you just have nothing to cut to and doing a short bulk cycle makes sense.

In both cases I'd keep calories not too far off of maintenance and probably do something less aggressive.

I once read a really good article about this, but now I can't find it. This one is okay.

http://truehealthandfitness101.blogspot.com/2012/04/anorexic-ripped-is-not-same-as-swoll.html

You don't want to be this guy, or i hope you don't:

What a ridiculous comment! If you look carefully (for example his traps) the guy is actually in pretty good shape. But to link a blog with the title "anorexic ripped" is beyond the pale.

And just to throw my two cents in here, I don't think the comment was as ridiculous as you think. That guy is in reasonable shape compared to someone who is obese or skinny-fat, but there's not a lot of lean mass there at all.

ilovedeadlifts · October 2012

And just to throw my two cents in here, I don't think the comment was as ridiculous as you think. That guy is in reasonable shape compared to someone who is obese or skinny-fat, but there's not a lot of lean mass there at all.

very true.

FullOfWin · October 2012

You shouldn't be thinking about bulking until you've got visible abs.

Bulking = calorie suplus and gaining fat along with muscle.

The metabolism raising effects of more muscle are grossly overstated.

Take advantage of your noob strength gains while cutting down the first time. Whe you switch over to bulking then you should be strong enough to actually gain some muscle.

WAT??????

???????????????? Strong enough to actually gain some muscle??

Oddly enough, that's the one part that I understood. Sounds weird but I know what he means. It's only about 50% correct tho.

Strong enough to gain some muscle.....

If you are squatting say 0.75x BW for example, unless you look like a competitive marathoner, your are so neurologically inefficeint with your strength that you aren't strong enough to really work your muscles all that well. When you are in the noob gains area, able to make rapid session to session strength gains on a linear progression, you're muscles aren't really getting worked as well as you think they are. The gains come fast and furious whether on a surplus or deficit diet-wise. It is only once you get strong enough to start really accounting for fatigue, where lifts begin stalling, that you are working your muscles with high enough neural effiency to really start packing on mass at an efficient rate.

Here's a good article by Lyle McDonald on why you should diet down first.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html

Basically, muscle gain is most efficient in the 10-15% BF area. Above and below that a greater % of your surplus tends to go to fat.

The shortest distance between point A and B, when fat loss and muscle gain is the goal, is to lose most of the fat first before beginning to eat for muscle gain.

I would have to totally disagree with this, most men and women who lift heavy prove it wrong each and every day. I gained more LM. above 15% BF. than I have since I dropped below 15% BF. If I listened to you I wouldnt be anywhere close to were I am today and I had to lose 83 lbs.

I disagree with your disagreement. Yes total noobs gain visual size to their muscles when they start out, but it is mostly due to increased water and nutrient storage, not actual muscle tissue. The best muscle gains come after neural gains.

Tricep_A_Tops · October 2012

You shouldn't be thinking about bulking until you've got visible abs.

Bulking = calorie suplus and gaining fat along with muscle.

The metabolism raising effects of more muscle are grossly overstated.

Take advantage of your noob strength gains while cutting down the first time. Whe you switch over to bulking then you should be strong enough to actually gain some muscle.

WAT??????

???????????????? Strong enough to actually gain some muscle??

Oddly enough, that's the one part that I understood. Sounds weird but I know what he means. It's only about 50% correct tho.

Strong enough to gain some muscle.....

If you are squatting say 0.75x BW for example, unless you look like a competitive marathoner, your are so neurologically inefficeint with your strength that you aren't strong enough to really work your muscles all that well. When you are in the noob gains area, able to make rapid session to session strength gains on a linear progression, you're muscles aren't really getting worked as well as you think they are. The gains come fast and furious whether on a surplus or deficit diet-wise. It is only once you get strong enough to start really accounting for fatigue, where lifts begin stalling, that you are working your muscles with high enough neural effiency to really start packing on mass at an efficient rate.

Here's a good article by Lyle McDonald on why you should diet down first.
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html

Basically, muscle gain is most efficient in the 10-15% BF area. Above and below that a greater % of your surplus tends to go to fat.

The shortest distance between point A and B, when fat loss and muscle gain is the goal, is to lose most of the fat first before beginning to eat for muscle gain.

I would have to totally disagree with this, most men and women who lift heavy prove it wrong each and every day. I gained more LM. above 15% BF. than I have since I dropped below 15% BF. If I listened to you I wouldnt be anywhere close to were I am today and I had to lose 83 lbs.

I disagree with your disagreement. Yes total noobs gain visual size to their muscles when they start out, but it is mostly due to increased water and nutrient storage, not actual muscle tissue. The best muscle gains come after neural gains.

Not talking about newbie gains or fluid retention in muscle tissue.

beebee0925 · October 2012

bump

ukulele2010 · October 2012

I had a similar question - and am somewhere in the 12%-15% bodyfat range and was told (on this forum...) to strength train vigorously and eat more because I am relatively light weight (5'11" 165 lbs). I also don't want to weigh less than I do today which I would necessarily need to do to decrease my bodyfat. I have found it difficult to gain weight even with increased calorie intake - which may be good - may be bad... So far I am at the same weight through strength training - then again I am a newbie so I see some small gains. By the way Lyle McDonald says that this "fluid retention making muscle bigger" only lasts for about 3 weeks - so if you are getting bigger and have been strength training for more than 3 weeks you are likely experiencing something more than just "fluid retention."

waldo56 · October 2012

I have found it difficult to gain weight even with increased calorie intake

Then you need to eat more.

If you are not gaining weight you are not eating enough, period.

ukulele2010 · October 2012

I have found it difficult to gain weight even with increased calorie intake

Then you need to eat more.

If you are not gaining weight you are not eating enough, period.

Of this, I am aware... Yes, I understand the effects caloric deficit, maintenance and surplus on weight... I am suggesting that my increased caloric intake is not enough to gain weight.

BusyRaeNOTBusty · October 2012

I have found it difficult to gain weight even with increased calorie intake

Then you need to eat more.

If you are not gaining weight you are not eating enough, period.

Of this, I am aware... Yes, I understand the effects caloric deficit, maintenance and surplus on weight... I am suggesting that my increased caloric intake is not enough to gain weight.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-mistakes.html

ZoeLifts · October 2012

I want to be in on this thread! This is new information for me and as I will eventually stop cutting and either recomp or do a light bulk. I'm pretty frustrated right now with how little strength I have right now while lifting and would like to build that up.

nphect · October 2012

i think it depends how big you want to get.

if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.

and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.

i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.

nphect · October 2012

I want to be in on this thread! This is new information for me and as I will eventually stop cutting and either recomp or do a light bulk. I'm pretty frustrated right now with how little strength I have right now while lifting and would like to build that up.

lift heavy 6-8 reps 2-3 sets!

mmapags · October 2012

i think it depends how big you want to get.

if it were me, i wouldn't bulk if i was over 18-20% body fat.

and if your going for strength and not looks, i think a lot of guys would up that to around 25%, possibly more.

i would like to add, i try to not go past 20% because it hinders my cardio, which may or may not be important to you.

You know, I get this and in the past wouldn't have disagreed. However, a couple of months ago, I got to a stall at about 23% BF. Wasn't loosing weight and wasn't progressing with strength. I looked at the options. Cut calories more or go on a conservative bulk. I chose the later. I have added some nice muscle mass in my upper body where I was lacking, broken my strength stall and add a little fat but not a lot. 5 more pounds up to go and then cut. I'm liking the results so far, both appearance and strength wise. When I cut, I will have a better base structure to start from.

ZoeLifts · October 2012

I want to be in on this thread! This is new information for me and as I will eventually stop cutting and either recomp or do a light bulk. I'm pretty frustrated right now with how little strength I have right now while lifting and would like to build that up.

lift heavy 6-8 reps 2-3 sets!

Yeah, I do RPT 3 days a week, so I pretty much fit the bill! I am starting to max out on my DL especially, and I am assuming it is because I am on a leangains -30/+10 cut.

geebusuk · October 2012

I'm aiming for 10% body fat before bulking - should be around 160lb or so for me.

The idea is around the point abs might start showing - though I need to keep doing ab exercises (have been slacking due to a dodgy back and trying to ensure it doesn't get worse) to have any hope of anything showing through.

When to bulk?

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