15 minute running miles, (anaerobic and aerobic thresholds)

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Welshdude66
Welshdude66 Posts: 3
in Fitness and Exercise
Hi guys I'm basically looking for some help off runners who run a lot and have good knowledge and information for something I'm currently at a loss to.

Basically I've just recently started running(long distance running) as I had been reading up on something called the aerobic threshold, from reading about this it got my thinking of where my aerobic capacity levels were at.

Although I have been active for a good 8 years, I'm now 27, my training has mainly consisted of big heavy weight lifting and next to no cardio work save for my weekly 60 minute 5 a side football games. So I've pretty much been training anaerobically for a very long time, hence my curiosity at what my aerobic state is like.

I've just started running long miles using a heart rate monitor as to stay in my aerobic threshold(153 BPM) to train my base aerobic capacity.
What I am noticing though is that to stay in my target area and not go over into the anaerobic heart rate levels I'm currently running 15 minute miles, this is pretty much walking speed.
I'm far from out of breath and in my first week I was doing 50+ miles (currently in my 5th week) of similar mileage. I think that years of heavy squats has given me increased muscle strength and tendon and ligament strength, which is why I've been able to throw myself heavily with the mileage with no strain/injury (thus far).

BUT, and here is my problem.
I know that I could run A LOT faster miles, possibly 9 minute miles for at least a few miles.
So I'm feeling really low at the moment with having to run at such a slow pace when I know that if I were to push into my anaerobic threshold i could be doing 10 minute miles for the same amount of miles I'm doing in 15 minutes.

The question I'd like answered if at all possible is this, has years of weight training and my only cardio being fast sprinting in 5 a side football hindered my aerobic ability to the extent where I'm running as slow as people who are sedentary and not active at all?

As you can imagine that having trained for 8 years, I thought I was in good shape, but this has really put a downer on me in terms of self realisation and the reality of things.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Ant

Replies

  • timboom1
    timboom1 Posts: 762 Member
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    No, lifting and football have not hindered your aerobic capacity, they have probably helped it in general, but not very specifically for endurance activities like running. I don't think you are close to your aerobic threshold, you will know when you cross that line very quickly.

    Specific to your running others can probably give more detailed info, but a couple of thoughts:

    1) Rather than let a HR monitor tell you what to do, run by feel. Your base building aerobic runs should be at an easy conversational (read, not say a word or two, but actual be able to converse) pace. If that is faster than 15 minute miles than you can safely go faster. Running a this easy pace is going to be well under your aerobic threshold.

    2) Lifting and sprinting are not the same as the repetition stresses that running will put on your body. I think you are lucky that you are not yet injured from going from 0 to 50 miles per week (only a few of us runners do that many miles per week. and most have been at it for a while.) however, going so slow may have helped you avoid injury so far, hard to say since overuse injuries tend to creep up on you. Speeding up will greatly increase the likelihood injury as you get more fatigued during a run.

    3) Still on the injury thing. Running endurance is both aerobic and muscle and connective tissues...this second part is where too much too soon will catch up with you. The only way to effectively build the adaptations needed is to similar to lifting, you need to start with less and build up to more, slowly over time, allowing for recovery and building to occur. It is not unusual that aerobic endurance exceeds the structural endurance for a beginning runner, it is also where a lot of overuse injuries come from.

    Back off the miles, run at a conversational pace, allow for some running recovery days (good days to lift) and build your endurance by increasing time on your feet a little each week.
  • ixap
    ixap Posts: 675 Member
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    1) Rather than let a HR monitor tell you what to do, run by feel. Your base building aerobic runs should be at an easy conversational (read, not say a word or two, but actual be able to converse) pace. If that is faster than 15 minute miles than you can safely go faster. Running a this easy pace is going to be well under your aerobic threshold.
    YES!
    When you are running mostly anearobically you will know it. You will most certainly be out of breath, and you won't be able to maintain it for long.
    Likely your HRM is not doing a good job of estimating your aerobic zone -- some people run high or low for their HR; nothing to worry about.
  • scottb81
    scottb81 Posts: 2,538 Member
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    I would differ from the previous posters and guess that you are right around your aerobic threshold at 153. Google Maffetone training. His method puts your aerobic threshold exactly at 153. If you have always trained well above this then your aerobic system is likely simply underdeveloped. It can be fixed though by doing exactly what you are doing. What you have done in the past hasn't damaged it in any way, it just hasn't developed it.

    Results do not come after only a week though. Your body has to build new capillaries and new mitochondria in the running muscles. That process takes about six weeks. So you should see progress every three to six weeks. Eventually, you should be back to 10 minute miles or faster at your aerobic heart rate. If you have never properly trained your aerobic system that might take a while. While you may want to run faster right now you should try to stay with the aerobic heart rate for at least six to 12 weeks and see what progress you are making after that time.

    I am copying below a post I recently made to another runner on low heartrate training.
    Basically what everyone should do is 12+ week of basebuilding every year at easy pace. The problem is that most people, me included, tend to run easy pace too hard for optimum development of the aerobic system. The result is that it never really gets fully developed and if too much hard running is included can get eroded over time.

    The method I am using is from Dr. Phil Maffetone’s "Big Book of Endurance Training and Racing". He has an internet site and this article by him summarizes his method and why it works. http://content.bandzoogle.com/users/cippianhotmail/files/Want_Speed_Slow_Down_2007.pdf

    Essentially, you subtract your age from 180, add a plus or minus 5 modifier and run at that target heartrate to target minus 10 for 12 or more weeks or until you stop getting results. Then you add back in some speedwork and race. During the basebuilding period walk breaks are ok, especially going up hills, but slowing down the pace will probably also be necessary. According to a lot of people who have been through this the slowdown is temporary and within a few months the pace will be back up, except at a lower intensity.

    This next article by a top level athlete speaks of the results he got from training with the Maffetone method. http://www.markallenonline.com/maoArticles.aspx?AID=2

    This method is by an entirely different coach but ends up being very similar to Maffetone. The article at the link is from a very long post by that coach on the Let’s Run Forum a few years ago. The explanations in here are great. http://www.angio.net/personal/run/hadd.pdf

    This link is to the runningahead Low HR Training subforum. It contains a lot of good information and ongoing discussion. It would also be a good place to ask questions of people who have been doing this a lot longer than I have. http://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/forum

    This Low HR Training FAQ at that site also contains a lot of good information. http://www.runningahead.com/groups/LOWHRTR/forum/60275b29d3324bd384739e880f6a7495
  • Welshdude66
    Welshdude66 Posts: 3
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    Cheers for the quick response guys.

    I used some kind of formula after researching aerobic thresholds on in the internet, it did work out at around 153 for me( I know it will never be accurate unless tested in a lab) and I tend to run in the 148-150 range just to be sure.

    I'm finding it hard to go by feel as I'm new to this, but because I believe my anaerobic system is so developed I believe if I were to go by feel and go faster and not go by my heart rate monitor I could hold this pace for a while and not see much gains in the aerobic sense, almost would be a no mans land so to speak or on the middle of the fence where I'm not getting the best of either solely anaerobic or the aerobic which is what I'm aiming for. So going faster is most definitely not on my to do list if it means going over my target heart rate.

    I'm unsure as to how I've been able to go into what is the end of my 5th week with this kind of mileage(wasn't even getting soreness etc at all in the first week), but I can.
    Years of training and being in tune with my body when it comes to intense exercise has kept my senses of overtraining keen, I could just be being naive of course of later ramifications and of the fact that running may have different overtraining symptoms( to which I'm not sure it will), but this seems pretty comfortable to me, my day to day life has not been hit with any fatigue etc I do a lot of stretching and use my rumbleroller which was a god send during my weight training years.
    In fact quite the opposite has occurred, whereas weight training would leave me constantly feeling drained with aches and pains from muscle breakdown, I actually feel loose and full of high levels of energy at the moment.

    I see it a bit clearer now, that in having a good anaerobic level will not always equate to a good aerobic level, well not in my case anyway.
    Even as a kid I was always the 100M and not the cross country. I was fast, quick and explosive and I think that over the years I've stuck to what I was good at, and as Scott says it's not that i've damaged my aerobic system, it's just never had the chance to fully develop.

    So I just need to keep at what I'm doing, adjust/reduce mileage according to how I'm feeling( which at the moment is great), and mainly be patient.

    Thanks guys. I was just slightly worried when I knew I could hold a game of 5 a side football for 60 minutes with lots of running and couldn't run a 10 minute mile in my aerobic threshold.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    Certainly the genetic distribution of fast twitch/slow twitch muscle fibers can play a role. Most people cluster around the mean in this regard, but there are always exceptions.

    For someone in their 20s at a reasonable fitness level, "running" at a 15 min/mile pace seems odd. Quite frankly, my first impulse would be to look more at a max heart rate anomaly--that is by far the more likely explanation, esp after 5 weeks of training.

    In my experience, you have to include breathing/perceived exertion in your evaluation of intensity, not just heart rate. In many cases, breathing can actually more reliable than heart rate. A breathing rate that allows you to mentally count to 7 or 8 (counting as fast as you can) means you are at the lower end of aerobic steady-state, no matter the heart rate.

    Also keep in mind that the terms "aerobic" and "anaerobic" are not fixed states. There is no "on/off" switch, but a continuum of a mixed use of energy systems.

    If indeed one had an overdeveloped "anaerobic' system and underdeveloped aerobic system, than can be addressed with some targeted training, similar to what you are doing. However, doing nothing but lower-level aerobic steady-state training ultimately will result in diminishing returns.

    Especially after 5 weeks, I would gradually start to introduce some higher-intensity intervals (highER, meaning near threshold intensity) and a small percentage of high-intensity intervals as well (e.g. 5%). The higher-intensity work will actually enhance your aerobic training, allowing you to remain in an "aerobic" zone, but at higher running speeds.
  • scottb81
    scottb81 Posts: 2,538 Member
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    I have read on other sites the experiences of normal (not elite) people who have tried this type of low HR training for extended periods. One guy was running consistent 4:10 marathons (9:33 pace). He started doing low HR training at around 15:00/mi and kept at it for a long time (six months to a year). His aerobic speed eventually got down to 8:??/mi outside and he was running consistent 3:20 marathons (7:38/mi). Additionallly, all his other race times improved including his 1 mile time from 6:10 down to 5:40. All of this on exactly zero speedwork.

    So, there is enough anecdotal evidence out there to support the notion that this type of training does work, at least for some people. It just takes time to work.

    Note: Aerobic and anaerobic both play a part of energy production at any running speed. We are defining the aerobic threshold (AeT) as that point where they each provide approximately 50%. This point can be nailed exactly on a treadmill in a lab or can be estimated by any one of several formulas.
  • Welshdude66
    Welshdude66 Posts: 3
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    Yes I have thought that maybe the maximum heart rate rule could be a factor in this, also another thing I had thought about was my running economy as in my style an so forth, could people who run faster aerobic miles juts have better form than myself?
    I don't feel like my form is too bad, I'm at the recommended 90 strides per foot a minute rule. I run mid strike and my posture seems relatively in line(as best to my knowledge) Is there anyway anything to do with these things could be effecting it?

    I have to admit I agree with Scott that this way is my best method from all the evidence,articles etc that I've been studying.
    But also I take into consideration what you are saying too Azdak, I do need to keep a variety of the intensities I'm running etc, but I believe that that needs to come a lot later on into the training.

    Also what is this breathing count you're talking about? are you referring to the amount of seconds between each breath? so if I was counting to 8 quickly between breaths this would mean I'm possibly running at a rate that is too slow?

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