Why can't you gain muscle at a deficit again?
angiechimpanzee
Posts: 536 Member
I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth? Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue? I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth? Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue? I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
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Replies
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1.They may look more muscular since they have lost body fat and retained lean body mass revealing their muscles.
2. I don't think there's any metabolic pathway to convert fat into muscle, therefore protein and an abundance of calories are needed.0 -
You can see the muscles more clearly, making them look more muscular. Heavy people generally have a decent amount of muscle just from moving around their bulk all the time and eating a calorie surplus, so when they cut away the fat they end up looking pretty muscular.
Extremely overweight/obese people CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit for exactly the reasons you listed. However, for people who have lower body fat percentages, they simply can't mobilize enough energy from fat stores to compensate for a calorie deficit and muscle growth simultaneously.0 -
Here is a great article on that: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html0
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But that's not true at all for me. I used to lose weight the unhealthy way & wittled down to a mere 102 pounds. But I was still skinny fat and had NO muscle tone, I was soft all over. I gained all the weight back and some. I got back into weight loss again, but this time I started doing resistance exercises along with my calorie deficit & cardio & I started seeing muscle definition that never existed before, even at my lowest weight. & I know its not just my eyes playing tricks on me because my friends noticed too. My stomach is noticeably firmer and thighs are stronger and harder, before they were just mush. The only weight training I ever did was while I was on about a 500 calorie/day deficit for about 8 weeks. My whole body got firmer.You can see the muscles more clearly, making them look more muscular. Heavy people generally have a decent amount of muscle just from moving around their bulk all the time and eating a calorie surplus, so when they cut away the fat they end up looking pretty muscular.
Extremely overweight/obese people CAN gain muscle on a calorie deficit for exactly the reasons you listed. However, for people who have lower body fat percentages, they simply can't mobilize enough energy from fat stores to compensate for a calorie deficit and muscle growth simultaneously.0 -
You were maintaining the LBM you already had and because you were training the muscles were retaining water making it look and feel like you were gaining muscle0
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Ill give the unscientific explanation...
If your feeding is 3 times a day, and the final meal is 1200 calories just after you work out, the muscle growth will result and the negative calories later in the day will feed off fat, all bodies are different.
But just cause you should have had 3000 calories in a day and you only had 2000, lets just say you wake up in the morning and feed.... evenly over the course of the day, it could be very different cause at no stage are you really feeding your body ENOUGH.0 -
Here is a great article on that: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
Cliffs: overfat beginners can gain some muscle without a surplus. muscle gain without surplus can not be maintained long term.0 -
Strip away body fat and a body will look more muscular. Many adolescent males look muscular from low body fat without working out.I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
Fat calories can't be converted to protein which are the building blocks of muscle.AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth?
Again you're speaking about stored lipid energy vs taking in amino acids.Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue?
It's possible to an extent if one is obese/very overweight and/or has NEVER trained before, but even then the gain is minimal. To add muscle is to add mass. You don't add mass without calorie surplus (with the exception of the mentioned).I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
It's like driving to Mexico and Canada at the same time....unless you're shooting roids!
Seriously, there is no such thing as 100% fat loss or muscle gain, and while losing weight, the key is retention of lean body mass.
That's why we take it slow; those in a race with nature finish last.
Good luck... :flowerforyou:0 -
1) You can gain in a deficit in certain circumstances (you are obese, just starting out a lifting program, or returning after not lifting for ages....) It's called newbie gains
These won't last forever.
2) They have removed the fat to reveal the muscle underneath. If you crash diet and lose lots of weight the unhealthy way, then you've likely lost lots of muscle too. If you lose weight healthily, while lifting, then you'll maintain more muscle to show off, even if you haven't added any extra.
Insanity probably involves a mix of the 2. 1) They are new to the program, gains would be less if they'd done several rounds. 2) The programme also involves mainly bodyweight stuff, not really the best for adding muscle. They're likely showing off the muscle they had already, and maintaining it more than they would if they didn't exercise at all.0 -
But that's not true at all for me. I used to lose weight the unhealthy way & wittled down to a mere 102 pounds. But I was still skinny fat and had NO muscle tone, I was soft all over. I gained all the weight back and some. I got back into weight loss again, but this time I started doing resistance exercises along with my calorie deficit & cardio & I started seeing muscle definition that never existed before, even at my lowest weight. & I know its not just my eyes playing tricks on me because my friends noticed too. My stomach is noticeably firmer and thighs are stronger and harder, before they were just mush. The only weight training I ever did was while I was on about a 500 calorie/day deficit for about 8 weeks. My whole body got firmer.
That's because, when you lost weight "the unhealthy way," you lost lean body mass, too. When you started the resistance exercises, you maintained much of your lean body mass, while losing the fat. You didn't gain (at least not significantly) any lean body mass.0 -
Because there actorsI hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?0 -
Here is a great article on that: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
and another...
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/general-philosophies-of-muscle-mass-gain.html
...though I've found it is much easier to read about it than to make it actually happen. Tough stuff.
Good luck!0 -
Here's an idea: Don't worry about it.
Whether you're gaining muscle mass as it may appear or (and this is what's actually happening) you're losing body fat and revealing muscle mass that was already there, the process to get there is the same. Eat enough protein, lift, and stay at a healthy calorie deficit. The specifics at the end of the day aren't that important.0 -
I dunno, Loveys. I am consistently getting stronger and stronger because I have been challenging myself since my early twenties. My ability to deal with increasingly heavy weights - which, I THINK means my muscles are "growing" happens whether I am eating more or eating less calories, so all I can say is..... Get to know your OWN body.... :flowerforyou:0
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Strip away body fat and a body will look more muscular. Many adolescent males look muscular from low body fat without working out.I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
Fat calories can't be converted to protein which are the building blocks of muscle.AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth?
Again you're speaking about stored lipid energy vs taking in amino acids.Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue?
It's possible to an extent if one is obese/very overweight and/or has NEVER trained before, but even then the gain is minimal. To add muscle is to add mass. You don't add mass without calorie surplus (with the exception of the mentioned).I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
:flowerforyou:0 -
Strip away body fat and a body will look more muscular. Many adolescent males look muscular from low body fat without working out.I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
Fat calories can't be converted to protein which are the building blocks of muscle.AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth?
Again you're speaking about stored lipid energy vs taking in amino acids.Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue?
It's possible to an extent if one is obese/very overweight and/or has NEVER trained before, but even then the gain is minimal. To add muscle is to add mass. You don't add mass without calorie surplus (with the exception of the mentioned).I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
:flowerforyou:
Yup.
Also, scientific laws dictate that you cannot create something out of nothing and the nothing would be a deficiency in calories consumed.0 -
bump0
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Yup.
Also, scientific laws dictate that you cannot create something out of nothing and the nothing would be a deficiency in calories consumed.
GTFO with your obvious science0 -
bump. I have been asking this question for quite some time now. Can't wait to read the responses.0
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correct, fat lacks nitrogen. Protein is made of amino acids which contain, you guessed it, nitrogen.1.They may look more muscular since they have lost body fat and retained lean body mass revealing their muscles.
2. I don't think there's any metabolic pathway to convert fat into muscle, therefore protein and an abundance of calories are needed.
Basically, all the macro nutirents are different forms of carbon and hydrogen (where the name carbohydrates comes from), but protein includes nitrogen.0 -
Angie, if you were "skinny fat," then you probably couldn't see the muscle definition. Isn't that pretty much what "skinny fat" is? A low(ish) BMI but high(ish) BF%?0
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Strip away body fat and a body will look more muscular. Many adolescent males look muscular from low body fat without working out.I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
Fat calories can't be converted to protein which are the building blocks of muscle.AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth?
Again you're speaking about stored lipid energy vs taking in amino acids.Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue?
It's possible to an extent if one is obese/very overweight and/or has NEVER trained before, but even then the gain is minimal. To add muscle is to add mass. You don't add mass without calorie surplus (with the exception of the mentioned).I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
:flowerforyou:
Yup.
Also, scientific laws dictate that you cannot create something out of nothing and the nothing would be a deficiency in calories consumed.
What is this...science?!?! LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS?!?!
You have no place here, dream-killer!
You can synthesize most amino acids via transamination with ketones which can be derived from fatty acid or glucose oxidation but that is not to say you're converting the FA/carb to protein. Plus you need another amino acid with which to perform the transamination. So you're not making anything *new*, you're just making an amino acid that's more important than the one you traded in. Like ModoVincere said, AA's have nitrogen and neither carbs nor fat have that.0 -
is transamination like the process of changing some beater car into a Trans Am?0
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Strip away body fat and a body will look more muscular. Many adolescent males look muscular from low body fat without working out.I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
Fat calories can't be converted to protein which are the building blocks of muscle.AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth?
Again you're speaking about stored lipid energy vs taking in amino acids.Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue?
It's possible to an extent if one is obese/very overweight and/or has NEVER trained before, but even then the gain is minimal. To add muscle is to add mass. You don't add mass without calorie surplus (with the exception of the mentioned).I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
:flowerforyou:
Yup.
Also, scientific laws dictate that you cannot create something out of nothing and the nothing would be a deficiency in calories consumed.
What is this...science?!?! LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS?!?!
You have no place here, dream-killer!
You can synthesize most amino acids via transamination with ketones which can be derived from fatty acid or glucose oxidation but that is not to say you're converting the FA/carb to protein. Plus you need another amino acid with which to perform the transamination. So you're not making anything *new*, you're just making an amino acid that's more important than the one you traded in. Like ModoVincere said, AA's have nitrogen and neither carbs nor fat have that.
Are you saying that if I use nitrous oxide I can transanimate my fat into muscle? I'm down with that.0 -
Strip away body fat and a body will look more muscular. Many adolescent males look muscular from low body fat without working out.I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
Fat calories can't be converted to protein which are the building blocks of muscle.AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth?
Again you're speaking about stored lipid energy vs taking in amino acids.Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue?
It's possible to an extent if one is obese/very overweight and/or has NEVER trained before, but even then the gain is minimal. To add muscle is to add mass. You don't add mass without calorie surplus (with the exception of the mentioned).I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
:flowerforyou:
Yup.
Also, scientific laws dictate that you cannot create something out of nothing and the nothing would be a deficiency in calories consumed.
What is this...science?!?! LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS?!?!
You have no place here, dream-killer!
You can synthesize most amino acids via transamination with ketones which can be derived from fatty acid or glucose oxidation but that is not to say you're converting the FA/carb to protein. Plus you need another amino acid with which to perform the transamination. So you're not making anything *new*, you're just making an amino acid that's more important than the one you traded in. Like ModoVincere said, AA's have nitrogen and neither carbs nor fat have that.
Are you saying that if I use nitrous oxide I can transanimate my fat into muscle? I'm down with that.
If I could like stay baked on excessive Lortab usage 24/7 and gain muscle mass that would be sweet.0 -
It seems counter-productive to me. I have around 200 pounds to lose - I'm currently 367 lbs and would like to get down to 170-200. Currently I am trying to keep my calorie count between 2000 and 2500. I'm also doing strength and cardio training 3x a week and plan on bumping it up to cardio 5x a week. I do not eat back the calories I burned exercising, I don't even really track them other than using the default counts provided here.
Should I eat the extra calories or should I wait until I've lost some of the weight before adding them back in.
Does weight loss really have to be more complicated than eat less and move more?0 -
It seems counter-productive to me. I have around 200 pounds to lose - I'm currently 367 lbs and would like to get down to 170-200. Currently I am trying to keep my calorie count between 2000 and 2500. I'm also doing strength and cardio training 3x a week and plan on bumping it up to cardio 5x a week. I do not eat back the calories I burned exercising, I don't even really track them other than using the default counts provided here.
Should I eat the extra calories or should I wait until I've lost some of the weight before adding them back in.
Does weight loss really have to be more complicated than eat less and move more?
When you've got a lot of weight to lose, you have quite a bit more wiggle room. A guy your size (or mine) could handle pretty easily a 1500-2k calorie deficit, and assuming you ate right and lifted wouldn't have that many issues. As you get closer to your ideal body weight though, it becomes harder. Higher and higher deficits will just strip muscle mass, your TDEE will be lower anyway so those deficits will take a larger chunk out of your available calories, and closer to your ideal weight it's just plain harder to lose. You can get away with a lot more at first.
That being said, it would behoove you to work out the details of how you respond to things, what your TDEE is, etc now so that when you do get closer to the ideal you're not struggling as much.
EDIT: Also make mini goals instead of just worrying about the big one. Focus on getting to 350, then 325, and so on. It's much more manageable (in my opinion, anyway) that way.0 -
That makes sense. I know that I'll have to make adjustments as the weight comes off and it's a struggle to change my eating habits right now. Going from a "see-food" diet to actually thinking and planning what I eat is hard enough. I worry that if I start adding calories back in I'll end up sabotaging myself.
My goals right now aren't about the pounds. Goal 1 is to exercise 3x a week for the month of January. Goal 2 is to stay under 2500 calories for the same period of time.0 -
Strip away body fat and a body will look more muscular. Many adolescent males look muscular from low body fat without working out.I hear that in order for muscle to grow, you have to be eating at an excess of calories. But if that was true, why do people who do Insanity to lose weight finish looking not just thinner, but more muscular than they ever have?
Fat calories can't be converted to protein which are the building blocks of muscle.AND, scientifically speaking, if you need, lets say 500 calories of extra energy per day for your muscle to grow, & you have excess fat on your body, wouldn't your body break down that fat to get those calories in order to fuel muscle growth?
Again you're speaking about stored lipid energy vs taking in amino acids.Why would your body need a constant intake of extra calories when you already have loads of extra calories stored in your adipose tissue?
It's possible to an extent if one is obese/very overweight and/or has NEVER trained before, but even then the gain is minimal. To add muscle is to add mass. You don't add mass without calorie surplus (with the exception of the mentioned).I can understand for a guy who's only 140 pounds and wants to bulk up to a muscular 180, then sure he needs to eat more. But for someone who's overweight and wants to gain muscle WHILE losing their fat, why isn't that possible?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 28+ years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
:flowerforyou:
Yup.
Also, scientific laws dictate that you cannot create something out of nothing and the nothing would be a deficiency in calories consumed.
What is this...science?!?! LAWS OF THERMODYNAMICS?!?!
You have no place here, dream-killer!
You can synthesize most amino acids via transamination with ketones which can be derived from fatty acid or glucose oxidation but that is not to say you're converting the FA/carb to protein. Plus you need another amino acid with which to perform the transamination. So you're not making anything *new*, you're just making an amino acid that's more important than the one you traded in. Like ModoVincere said, AA's have nitrogen and neither carbs nor fat have that.
Are you saying that if I use nitrous oxide I can transanimate my fat into muscle? I'm down with that.
No, it doesn't quite work that way. We can't fix nitrogen (N) to hydrogen (H) to create the amino group (NH2). We are just moving amino groups around. The NH2 (amino group) is just being taken off the carbon backbone of an amino acid and being stuck into the carbon chain of a ketoacid to make a different amino acid. Your nitrous oxide is N2O.0
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