Building Muscle & Losing Fat...

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aalpass
aalpass Posts: 124 Member
in Food and Nutrition
I've been thinking about this process of building muscle and losing fat but I'm still not all that knowledgable and would love to hear peoples thoughts. I've seen a lot of success stories here people eat at a small deficit and lift heavy weights and create amazing bodies. I've also read a lot of people saying you won't build muscle on a deficit, you need to be in surplus and you won't lose fat on a surplus, you need a deficit. Confusing much!

I LOVE my food and struggle to stay at a deficit each day. How do you reckon it would go if on your weight training days you ate a surplus, and on the cardio days ate a deficit. Would this work? Then I could enjoy some very yummy days :P Even eating back workout calories I often seem to go over. All constructive thoughts and ideas welcome!

Replies

  • autopilot_on
    autopilot_on Posts: 388
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    From what I understand, to build muscle and lose fat you need to increase your metabolism. To do that you need to workout consistently and eat a normal amount of calories. When your body is convinced that you are going to burn X amount of calories on a regular basis by using muscle then you will start to lose fat because your body will realize that you are feeding it what it needs every day so it doesn't need to "store extra energy" in the form of fat. Sorry for the run on sentence.

    And again, this is just what I think and from what I can remember from Health class way back in high school. So fact check anyone? Don't hold anything back, tell it like it is.
  • bethanytowell
    bethanytowell Posts: 256 Member
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    This is one of those topics many people have very strong opinions about. From my measly knowledge, you cannot build muscle on a calorie deficit BUT you can retain the muscle that you do have already and basically lose mostly "fat" from having a calorie deficit. If you only do cardio, you will lose both fat and muscle equally therefore when you reach your desired weight, you still look soft however if you had reached your desired weight through calorie deficit only while lifting heavy to maintain your current muscle mass you will have a "toned" looking body. sorry if that was confusing, but there is my 2 cents.
  • autopilot_on
    autopilot_on Posts: 388
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    This is one of those topics many people have very strong opinions about. From my measly knowledge, you cannot build muscle on a calorie deficit BUT you can retain the muscle that you do have already and basically lose mostly "fat" from having a calorie deficit. If you only do cardio, you will lose both fat and muscle equally therefore when you reach your desired weight, you still look soft however if you had reached your desired weight through calorie deficit only while lifting heavy to maintain your current muscle mass you will have a "toned" looking body. sorry if that was confusing, but there is my 2 cents.

    I hear you Bethany but I also wonder if this is an individual thing. I've been at a calorie deficit and working out 3-5 times a week since October and have only seen a loss of 9 pounds. I agree that it's important to do both strength training and cardio but I wonder if a person's individual body composition may have some play in the whole thing. What do you think?
  • DanaDark
    DanaDark Posts: 2,187 Member
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    Your body has two main states: Catabolic and Anabolic.

    In the catabolic state, you break down (fats and muscle).
    In the anabolic state, you build up (fat and muscle).

    The state you are in is determined by your current caloric deficit/surplus. Surplus leans towards anabolic while deficit leans towards catabolic.

    These two states are not mutually exclusive. Think of it as A + C = 1.0 where A > C when calories are in surplus and A < C when calories are in deficit and A = C at maintenance.

    Anabolism is responsible for all your bodily repairs and temporary fat storage such as right after a meal.

    If your body's anabolism has enough to do all your bodily needs and still has extra room left over, you can gain muscle. If it does not, then you cannot.

    People that begin to work out and people returning to working out after not for a long time can gain muscle on a deficit because of this.

    So, starting out, if you have a 500 cal deficit and little muscle mass, you could gain some muscle mass until the maintenance of the new muscle takes up the remainder of your body's anabolic rate. From here, switching to a 250 cal deficit will up your anabolic rate, and thus allow the body to start gaining muscle again.

    If you have more muscle than your rate of anabolism can support, then it will be broken down via catabolism.

    For people very serious about maximizing their gains, a maximized anabolic rate is best. For those that just want a couple extra pounds of muscle eventually to help firm, tone, and have a little extra muscle mass, it is reasonable to continue at a deficit and eventually maintenance.
  • lucasriggs
    lucasriggs Posts: 131
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  • aalpass
    aalpass Posts: 124 Member
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    Ok this all makes sense. And I'm guessing the body isn't going to switch between anabolic and catabolic states within a matter of hours. So I could go ahead and do my calorie thing, but it would be the average overall in the week that would probably determine what the body would do?
  • DanaDark
    DanaDark Posts: 2,187 Member
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    Ok this all makes sense. And I'm guessing the body isn't going to switch between anabolic and catabolic states within a matter of hours. So I could go ahead and do my calorie thing, but it would be the average overall in the week that would probably determine what the body would do?

    Some people practice things like IF (Intermittent Fasting) that is supposed to achieve that goal.

    However, you have to be SPOT ON every day... it is simply too much micro managing for most people to really do.

    Best idea is to lift weights to retain muscle as you diet down to the size you want. As you get closer, slowly up your calories and continue your weight lifting.
  • kristanb05
    kristanb05 Posts: 44
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    I can only say what's been working for me. I've been doing a mix of all 3 things, diet (25% off my TDEE), strength training, and cardio. I'm keeping an eye on my weight loss and will adjust my calories as I decrease my BMI. I've only been doing all of this for less than a year though, and have just recently started to make progress in my diet so take it for what it's worth.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,344 Member
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    Eating at maintenance calories while trying to cut fat and build muscle simultaneously is called a "recomp" (recomposition), and it's largely inefficient. Here's a great article discussing the topic in more detail:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html
  • BarackMeLikeAHurricane
    BarackMeLikeAHurricane Posts: 3,400 Member
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    Ok this all makes sense. And I'm guessing the body isn't going to switch between anabolic and catabolic states within a matter of hours. So I could go ahead and do my calorie thing, but it would be the average overall in the week that would probably determine what the body would do?

    Some people practice things like IF (Intermittent Fasting) that is supposed to achieve that goal.

    However, you have to be SPOT ON every day... it is simply too much micro managing for most people to really do.

    Best idea is to lift weights to retain muscle as you diet down to the size you want. As you get closer, slowly up your calories and continue your weight lifting.

    Yup, I've gained 1/2" on my arms and lost weight through IF, but then again I am obsessive about it. It's a lot of work and I have to carefully plan out my food and exercise but I love it.
  • dr3w_s
    dr3w_s Posts: 88 Member
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    I'm thinking, what if on the day that I do weight training I eat 400 calories above my maintenance and on the day I do cardio I would eat my maintenance calories and the cardio would cause deficit? Anyone tried that?
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    I'm thinking, what if on the day that I do weight training I eat 400 calories above my maintenance and on the day I do cardio I would eat my maintenance calories and the cardio would cause deficit? Anyone tried that?
    Yes, it's called calorie cycling and like recomp, it's fairly inefficient and typically best practiced by those that are close to thier body composition goals and trying to reduce those last few % of body fat while keeping lean muscle mass.

    Bottom line is if building muscle, as in hypertrophy or making muscle larger is the goal, then a traditional bulk with a calorie surplus and a weight training program is the most efficient way to do it. Typically many are really not interested in that, particularly women and when some people say "building muscle" they really mean developing thier existing muscle that has atrophied through lack of training. This can be done in a calorie deficit together with weight training. You will lose fat and have a more developed muscle structure causing one to look much better, thinner and more muscular.
  • Yeller_Sensation
    Yeller_Sensation Posts: 373 Member
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    Some people practice things like IF (Intermittent Fasting) that is supposed to achieve that goal.

    However, you have to be SPOT ON every day... it is simply too much micro managing for most people to really do.

    Indeed. I practice IF (16/8) and the daily micromanagement can get pretty daunting, even for a numbers freak like me. Meals and macros have to be plotted out in advance and logged religiously..

    When the feeding window opens, it's like a chorus of angels singing in my head. And boy, do I eat. LOL.
  • Lyadeia
    Lyadeia Posts: 4,603 Member
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    Eating at maintenance calories while trying to cut fat and build muscle simultaneously is called a "recomp" (recomposition), and it's largely inefficient. Here's a great article discussing the topic in more detail:

    http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html

    +1

    You could also look into Tom Venuto's ebook "The Holy Grail" which gives you protocol on how it's done without gaining too much fat in the process...

    But I simply prefer to lose fat to expose the muscle that already there. Make the muscle strong and prevent it from leaving in a calorie deficit by lifting heavy weights. Then when I am as lean as I want, I will increase my calories to maintenance and then a slight surplus to put on lean muscle. Of course, fat will always come with it, but you can reduce calories, keep lifting weights to keep the muscle you just built, and reduce the fat. It's just a cut/bulk cycle which is far less frustrating than trying to do 2 separate things at once. Focus on one goal at a time or the time it takes to reach either will be exaggerated.
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
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    Some people practice things like IF (Intermittent Fasting) that is supposed to achieve that goal.

    However, you have to be SPOT ON every day... it is simply too much micro managing for most people to really do.

    Indeed. I practice IF (16/8) and the daily micromanagement can get pretty daunting, even for a numbers freak like me. Meals and macros have to be plotted out in advance and logged religiously..

    When the feeding window opens, it's like a chorus of angels singing in my head. And boy, do I eat. LOL.

    Very good points. Additionally, IF seems to work more effectively at the fat loss side of the equation, I actually practice in during a cut, and can me a real exercise in frustration on the muscle building side of the equation if you are looking for any measureable growth in muscle mass.

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