Hypothyroid... Are you SURE I'm not a snowflake?

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  • WBB55
    WBB55 Posts: 4,131 Member
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    OMG. If you are truly low on thyroid hormone, see your doctor and don't ever stop taking your hormone replacement. Thyroid hormone is essential for all kinds of cellular and hormone production and vitamin utilization... I... I can only say please dear people... PLEASE see your doctor and don't stop taking prescribed synthetic thyroids.

    I'm lucky that when I had a partial thyroidectomy that my remaining thyroid is making enough of the hormone to keep me healthy. That might not always be the case as time goes on. PLEASE see your doctor if you have symptoms of low thyroid hormone.
  • misslibbyh
    misslibbyh Posts: 90 Member
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    I understand the concerns people have about discontinuing medications. I also understand that hypothyroidism is not the same as diabetes in the way diet and exercise effects thyroid function. However... As some people have experienced... The thyroid is supposed to self regulate which is why it adjusts it's production of hormone even when parts of it are removed. Brain chemistry and other factors effect thyroid function and these things self regulate and react to each-other... by replacing the hormone I am giving my thyroid the ok to keep doing what it's doing. Replacing the hormone actually cues the body to stop making it. That is not what I want my body to do. My condition was caused by improper diet and long periods of starving myself in my past along with the toxins I ingested and who knows how many factors. Low fat diets have made things worse and i have read that fat plays a huge role in thyroid function so low fat was the worst thing I could do. So... low carb DOES make sense... because if i have to stay within a calorie range and I need the fats to maintain thyroid function, i would rather not use up my calories on carbs. I am not suffering very aggressive symptoms... I do experience some tiredness, headaches, dry skin, low body temp... but they are not generally intolerable and I have noticed some improvement in the last couple of years in spite of discontinuing the meds. The headaches are much more rare than they were. I appreciate the responses and concerns about stopping the meds... But it is my choice after reading up on how the meds work and natural alternatives. If after giving it my best shot to achieve health naturally i can not realize my goals... I will go the pharmaceutical rout... but I have a feeling that I will not need to be on medication for the rest of my life because i chose not to.
  • assilembob
    assilembob Posts: 18 Member
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    I was on the medication for two years and did not see or feel any results. The dr. said my levels were normal though. I quit taking them because they were not helping. I also believe that taking drugs may reduce the chance of the body correcting itself. Since my symptoms (aside from the weight gain) are not extreme, I would rather approach the issue naturally though proper nutrition and exercise. I'm just having a hard time figuring out what that means for me. I have heard lower carb diets work better for hypo people and that's what I'm doing now. I'm just questioning the target calorie rang I should be shooting for. I am fairly certain that I will gain weight if I eat 1800 calories per day. Maybe i could bump it up a couple hundred at a time until I find my zone. problem is... if it takes two months to see results from changes... searching for it in increments could take years. =/

    Please, PLEASE take the medication. I was on it for 9 years. I gained weight, was still tired, didn't think it was helping and decided when I lost insurance to just stop. Biggest mistake ever. I set myself into a horrific spiral that took 5 years to culminate. I have severe dizzy spells, neurological problems, and my immune system is now all but non-existent. Thyroid disease is not something the body heals from. I have had to raise my medication levels 6 times in the last two years since being back on the medication and I think I need another blood work because I'm totally stalled on weight loss again.
    As I said, it took a few years before my thyroid stopped working again, but it eventually did and once I didn't have the hormone in my body, my body went haywire. Please be careful, get blood tests, and watch your TSH, T3 and T4 levels. When I was hospitalized finally and they did blood work, my TSH was 11.3 and I had zero T3 measurable in my system. This did neurological damage that can not be repaired.
  • WBB55
    WBB55 Posts: 4,131 Member
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    If your T3 and T4 are the only hormones low and your TSH is high, but everything else is normal, if I recall my endocrinology, this means the pituitary is probably functioning fine and the thyroid is the only one sleeping on the job. If it's not responding to the increase in TSH, then there's just not much else to do except take a supplement. Please make sure that you're taking extra special good double plus care of yourself and making sure you get tons of vitamins and proteins because with low thyroid, it's really hard to process vitamins and stuff.

    And I know you know this, but for anyone else considering discontinuing their synthetic thyroid, I'm totally an advocate for adjusting your diet to treat things like type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure and high cholesterol and stuff. But dangerously low thyroid hormone isn't the same thing. People used to get goiters, rickets and scurvy and things like that before we started adding vitamin D and citric acid to stuff. NO ONE needs to suffer from the symptoms of malnutrition and depression due to low thyroid hormone. See your doctor.
  • Swedgen
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    I'm Hypo as well, but my doctor has the dosage of my meds just about right on where I need to be. I go for bloodwork at least twice a year and she keeps an eye on the levels of my TSH and one other thing that I can't recall the name of right now. All I know is, once you get the meds right you feel SO much better! I'm not sure how any of this effects that TDEE thing, but I have to figure I'm functioning like a "normal" person right now.
  • WBB55
    WBB55 Posts: 4,131 Member
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    I'm not sure how any of this effects that TDEE thing

    My recollection is that normal BMR/TDEE simply doesn't apply as predicted to people with untreated hypothyroidism. Patients with uncontrolled low thyroid should probably eat whatever their doctor tells them to.
  • viajera99
    viajera99 Posts: 252 Member
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    Oh, ABSOLUTELY! I am going to do whatever I need to do to achieve optimal health.

    Then go see your physician and get on thyroid medication. Fact: Your hypothyroidism won't cure itself. Frankly, it sounds like you're looking for excuses rather than taking charge.
  • Doctorpurple
    Doctorpurple Posts: 507 Member
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    I understand the concerns people have about discontinuing medications. I also understand that hypothyroidism is not the same as diabetes in the way diet and exercise effects thyroid function. However... As some people have experienced... The thyroid is supposed to self regulate which is why it adjusts it's production of hormone even when parts of it are removed. Brain chemistry and other factors effect thyroid function and these things self regulate and react to each-other... by replacing the hormone I am giving my thyroid the ok to keep doing what it's doing. Replacing the hormone actually cues the body to stop making it. That is not what I want my body to do. My condition was caused by improper diet and long periods of starving myself in my past along with the toxins I ingested and who knows how many factors. Low fat diets have made things worse and i have read that fat plays a huge role in thyroid function so low fat was the worst thing I could do. So... low carb DOES make sense... because if i have to stay within a calorie range and I need the fats to maintain thyroid function, i would rather not use up my calories on carbs. I am not suffering very aggressive symptoms... I do experience some tiredness, headaches, dry skin, low body temp... but they are not generally intolerable and I have noticed some improvement in the last couple of years in spite of discontinuing the meds. The headaches are much more rare than they were. I appreciate the responses and concerns about stopping the meds... But it is my choice after reading up on how the meds work and natural alternatives. If after giving it my best shot to achieve health naturally i can not realize my goals... I will go the pharmaceutical rout... but I have a feeling that I will not need to be on medication for the rest of my life because i chose not to.

    Just because your symptoms are not aggressive doesn't mean your hypothyroidism is mild. And no it doesn't make sense to lower your carbohydrate intake. What you need is a balanced diet. You need to eat the recommended daily amounts of each food group and don't do low on anything. You need all the macronutrients. What makes you think that carbohydrates are not needed to maintain proper thyroid function as well as fats and proteins?

    Whatever you decided to do I think you need the supervision of your doctor. Your knowledge about thyroid hormones from reading articles and self research will not replace the knowledge of an endocrinologist. You said that your hypothyroidism was caused by disordered eating. From your comments above, I don't think you are completely good with choosing the right kind of diet appropriate for you as well as the number of calories you need in order to lose weight. Again, another reason to see a medical professional about this condition.
  • Doctorpurple
    Doctorpurple Posts: 507 Member
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    If your T3 and T4 are the only hormones low and your TSH is high, but everything else is normal, if I recall my endocrinology, this means the pituitary is probably functioning fine and the thyroid is the only one sleeping on the job. If it's not responding to the increase in TSH, then there's just not much else to do except take a supplement. Please make sure that you're taking extra special good double plus care of yourself and making sure you get tons of vitamins and proteins because with low thyroid, it's really hard to process vitamins and stuff.

    And I know you know this, but for anyone else considering discontinuing their synthetic thyroid, I'm totally an advocate for adjusting your diet to treat things like type 2 diabetes and high blood pressure and high cholesterol and stuff. But dangerously low thyroid hormone isn't the same thing. People used to get goiters, rickets and scurvy and things like that before we started adding vitamin D and citric acid to stuff. NO ONE needs to suffer from the symptoms of malnutrition and depression due to low thyroid hormone. See your doctor.

    I agree with all the comments above. There are many causes of hypothyroidism. Primary vs secondary hypothyroidism are very different in terms of treatment even with similar symptoms. If you have low T3 and T4 levels with high TSH levels, you thyroid is the one that is not functioning, therefore you need levo thyroxine.
  • misslibbyh
    misslibbyh Posts: 90 Member
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    I've been meaning to make an appointment to get my levels checked, but I am not ready to hand over my body to the pharmacy just yet.

    To those who think that the condition can not be treated any other way and is utterly irriversible, here is just one blip I've read. The sources of info are endless that suggest self care can be effective.



    "We often see hypothyroid symptoms totally reversed when a woman commits to an alternative hypothyroidism treatment program that supports balance through nutrition and daily self-care, including but not limited to the following guidelines:

    Consume foods naturally high in B vitamins, such as whole grains, nuts, and seeds, and iodine (fish, seaweed, vegetables and root vegetables).

    Exercise daily, at least 30–60 minutes per day, 4–5 times a week.

    Practice deep breathing and other techniques that trigger the “relaxation response,” such as meditation and guided visualization.

    Get adequate sun exposure if you live in a northern clime (15–20 minutes twice a day of unprotected sun in early morning and late afternoon between April and October) to maintain vitamin D levels, which support healthy immune function and calcium metabolism. Discuss supplementation during the winter months with your practitioner.

    Zero in on unresolved emotional issues as a source of stress. In naturopathic medicine, the thyroid reflects a woman’s voice in her life. Many women have experienced a “trapped voice,” and by the time perimenopause arrives the accumulated effect gives rise to symptoms, including poor thyroid function. Over and over we have seen that when women make progress in using their voices, their thyroid symptoms subside.

    Consider other alternative techniques that have been useful in correcting an underactive or low thyroid, such as acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine, naturopathic medicine, homeopathic medicine, biofeedback, and osteopathy.
    In our experience a multi-tiered hypothyroid treatment approach that deals directly with the nutritional, stress-related and emotional factors of hypothyroidism — in combination with alternative therapies — often restores a woman’s thyroid function completely."

    http://www.womentowomen.com/hypothyroidism/alternativetreatments.aspx
  • sunnydude
    sunnydude Posts: 3 Member
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    I have the same issue, however my thyroid tests are ALWAYS withing the normal range eventhough I have all the symptoms of hypothyroidism. I do things on the assumption that I have a thyroid issue under a doctors supervision as I have blood work done every 3 months to make sure that it stays within the normal range. Myself and my doctor believe that I do have thyroid issues and if my test results change the next time she will be sending me to a endocrinologist since I do indeed have all the symptoms of hypothyroidism but my test result show within the normal range....
  • Doctorpurple
    Doctorpurple Posts: 507 Member
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    I've been meaning to make an appointment to get my levels checked, but I am not ready to hand over my body to the pharmacy just yet.

    To those who think that the condition can not be treated any other way and is utterly irriversible, here is just one blip I've read. The sources of info are endless that suggest self care can be effective.



    "We often see hypothyroid symptoms totally reversed when a woman commits to an alternative hypothyroidism treatment program that supports balance through nutrition and daily self-care, including but not limited to the following guidelines:

    Consume foods naturally high in B vitamins, such as whole grains, nuts, and seeds, and iodine (fish, seaweed, vegetables and root vegetables).

    Exercise daily, at least 30–60 minutes per day, 4–5 times a week.

    Practice deep breathing and other techniques that trigger the “relaxation response,” such as meditation and guided visualization.

    Get adequate sun exposure if you live in a northern clime (15–20 minutes twice a day of unprotected sun in early morning and late afternoon between April and October) to maintain vitamin D levels, which support healthy immune function and calcium metabolism. Discuss supplementation during the winter months with your practitioner.

    Zero in on unresolved emotional issues as a source of stress. In naturopathic medicine, the thyroid reflects a woman’s voice in her life. Many women have experienced a “trapped voice,” and by the time perimenopause arrives the accumulated effect gives rise to symptoms, including poor thyroid function. Over and over we have seen that when women make progress in using their voices, their thyroid symptoms subside.

    Consider other alternative techniques that have been useful in correcting an underactive or low thyroid, such as acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine, naturopathic medicine, homeopathic medicine, biofeedback, and osteopathy.
    In our experience a multi-tiered hypothyroid treatment approach that deals directly with the nutritional, stress-related and emotional factors of hypothyroidism — in combination with alternative therapies — often restores a woman’s thyroid function completely."

    http://www.womentowomen.com/hypothyroidism/alternativetreatments.aspx

    I'm sorry but this is just an unreliable resource. This article solely based on an opinion of a Nurse practitioner. No clinical trials or non biased studies were done to confirm any of the above statements. I know you know this but the internet contains a bunch of bull information. You need to find a resource that is peer-reviewed non-biased and based on some solid clinical indisputable knowledge about thyroid disorders before you make medical decisions about your health. In addition, the above statements are for hypothyroid symptoms not really for clinical hypothyroidism.
  • misslibbyh
    misslibbyh Posts: 90 Member
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    I've been meaning to make an appointment to get my levels checked, but I am not ready to hand over my body to the pharmacy just yet.

    To those who think that the condition can not be treated any other way and is utterly irriversible, here is just one blip I've read. The sources of info are endless that suggest self care can be effective.



    "We often see hypothyroid symptoms totally reversed when a woman commits to an alternative hypothyroidism treatment program that supports balance through nutrition and daily self-care, including but not limited to the following guidelines:

    Consume foods naturally high in B vitamins, such as whole grains, nuts, and seeds, and iodine (fish, seaweed, vegetables and root vegetables).

    Exercise daily, at least 30–60 minutes per day, 4–5 times a week.

    Practice deep breathing and other techniques that trigger the “relaxation response,” such as meditation and guided visualization.

    Get adequate sun exposure if you live in a northern clime (15–20 minutes twice a day of unprotected sun in early morning and late afternoon between April and October) to maintain vitamin D levels, which support healthy immune function and calcium metabolism. Discuss supplementation during the winter months with your practitioner.

    Zero in on unresolved emotional issues as a source of stress. In naturopathic medicine, the thyroid reflects a woman’s voice in her life. Many women have experienced a “trapped voice,” and by the time perimenopause arrives the accumulated effect gives rise to symptoms, including poor thyroid function. Over and over we have seen that when women make progress in using their voices, their thyroid symptoms subside.

    Consider other alternative techniques that have been useful in correcting an underactive or low thyroid, such as acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine, naturopathic medicine, homeopathic medicine, biofeedback, and osteopathy.
    In our experience a multi-tiered hypothyroid treatment approach that deals directly with the nutritional, stress-related and emotional factors of hypothyroidism — in combination with alternative therapies — often restores a woman’s thyroid function completely."

    http://www.womentowomen.com/hypothyroidism/alternativetreatments.aspx

    I'm sorry but this is just an unreliable resource. This article solely based on an opinion of a Nurse practitioner. No clinical trials or non biased studies were done to confirm any of the above statements. I know you know this but the internet contains a bunch of bull information. You need to find a resource that is peer-reviewed non-biased and based on some solid clinical indisputable knowledge about thyroid disorders before you make medical decisions about your health. In addition, the above statements are for hypothyroid symptoms not really for clinical hypothyroidism.

    Ha ha! EVERYTHING is disputable. The decisions about my health are mine to make. I've read seen, heard and talked to doctors enough to make my own decision about taking the medication. I am an adult and we as adults make decisions about our health every single day without ANY "indisputable knowledge"... there is no such thing. This thread was about calculating calories for hypothyroid condition. I suspected that the numbers I got back would not be accurate for me because I am indeed... a special snowflake. =) Thank you for your input.
  • WBB55
    WBB55 Posts: 4,131 Member
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    I mean this in absolutely the most supportive way possible: Unfortunately, you probably aren't fixing/treating your hypothyroid by following the advice in the article. If you follow the advice of the article, you are minimizing some of the side effects/symptoms of low thyroid. You're most likely are not fixing the malfunction it in any way. If you find relief from the symptoms thru meditation and deep breathing, I think that's great. But you're fixing nothing and needlessly suffering.

    But for anyone else with symptoms of low thyroid, talk to your doctor. By working with your doctor you can eliminate all the symptoms of low thyroid hormone. You don't have to suffer the way the OP is. To everyone else, please, take charge of your own health by treating this potentially debilitating lifelong condition with proven, effective therapies. Lots of women you already know successfully treat this condition every day thru targeted replacement therapy.

    Good luck to you OP with you health journey. Please keep talking to others with this condition to learn about their experiences, since lots of people share this condition, and keep checking in with your doctor to get your levels checked.
  • wilson1134
    wilson1134 Posts: 32 Member
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    Back to the original topic for a moment, does anyone have any research/knowledge on an adjusted TDEE for someone with no thyroid and/or hypo that is in 'normal' range?
  • Craigamears
    Craigamears Posts: 65 Member
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    I'm sorry to say this but discontinuing your medications was a wrong move. I'm a medical student (not a doctor yet) and I really think that your hypothyroidism cannot be cured by diet and exercise alone. Its not the same as with Type II diabetes or hypertension that you skip the meds and replace with healthy lifestyle. Do you know what caused your hypothyroidism? Is it an autoimmune disease? If you are not feeling any improvement with medications, the solution is not stop taking them altogether. The solution is to explore other types of medications that can possibly make it better. I wonder if you consulted with your doctor before deciding to just stop taking drugs altogether. Low carb diets would not work for hypothyroid people. That doesn't even make sense. You are already low on energy and low carb diets has the potential to slow metabolism even more. You are just doing yourself more harm than good.

    As for your daily caloric intake to lose weight. Yes you would need less calories to lose weight than MFP is saying because those numbers are for synthyroid people. Again, I would really like to know how you become hypothyroid (the cause). I think I will give a more specific advice with that info

    I have to disagree a bit with Dr. Purple that low carb diets have the potential to slow metabolism. Not sure why that would be so. Lower carbs reduce insulin spiking but I don't see that slowing metabolism. There have been studies where ketogenic diets have been used for treating thyroid diseases like Hashimoto's disease. Not prescribing a diet here but shifting some of your existing calories from carbs to good fat sources and keeping within your calories may be something to try. But I am not a doc and don't play one on TV.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Back to the original topic for a moment, does anyone have any research/knowledge on an adjusted TDEE for someone with no thyroid and/or hypo that is in 'normal' range?

    I have never heard of one...possibly as the impact is different on different people...or possible I have just not stumbled across one. The TDEE calculators use populations as a basis for the inputs (so they can be off for anyone not within that populations's parameters anyway).
  • cmriverside
    cmriverside Posts: 34,080 Member
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    I've been meaning to make an appointment to get my levels checked, but I am not ready to hand over my body to the pharmacy just yet.

    To those who think that the condition can not be treated any other way and is utterly irriversible, here is just one blip I've read. The sources of info are endless that suggest self care can be effective.



    "We often see hypothyroid symptoms totally reversed when a woman commits to an alternative hypothyroidism treatment program that supports balance through nutrition and daily self-care, including but not limited to the following guidelines:

    Consume foods naturally high in B vitamins, such as whole grains, nuts, and seeds, and iodine (fish, seaweed, vegetables and root vegetables).

    Exercise daily, at least 30–60 minutes per day, 4–5 times a week.

    Practice deep breathing and other techniques that trigger the “relaxation response,” such as meditation and guided visualization.

    Get adequate sun exposure if you live in a northern clime (15–20 minutes twice a day of unprotected sun in early morning and late afternoon between April and October) to maintain vitamin D levels, which support healthy immune function and calcium metabolism. Discuss supplementation during the winter months with your practitioner.

    Zero in on unresolved emotional issues as a source of stress. In naturopathic medicine, the thyroid reflects a woman’s voice in her life. Many women have experienced a “trapped voice,” and by the time perimenopause arrives the accumulated effect gives rise to symptoms, including poor thyroid function. Over and over we have seen that when women make progress in using their voices, their thyroid symptoms subside.

    Consider other alternative techniques that have been useful in correcting an underactive or low thyroid, such as acupuncture and Traditional Chinese Medicine, naturopathic medicine, homeopathic medicine, biofeedback, and osteopathy.
    In our experience a multi-tiered hypothyroid treatment approach that deals directly with the nutritional, stress-related and emotional factors of hypothyroidism — in combination with alternative therapies — often restores a woman’s thyroid function completely."

    http://www.womentowomen.com/hypothyroidism/alternativetreatments.aspx

    This is one of the most ridiculous and dangerous things I've read on here in a while.

    I've been on thyroid replacement therapy for 25 years. Pretty sure I've read more than you have about this.

    Good luck with your ill-advised "self-treatment" program. Not wasting my time trying to convince you otherwise, I just wanted to say how wrong this article is. Listen to a doctor, not teh interwebz..although, you've gotten good sound advice in this thread. A $30 blood test and $10 a month for a pill is worth it to prevent the type of self-destruction you are going to find yourself facing.

    .
  • wilson1134
    wilson1134 Posts: 32 Member
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    Thanks! The closest I have found is that a hypo individual is potentially working with a 20-40% decrease in metabolism. That's a large range but at least confirms that it's a decrease.

    I do not believe that 'in range' people with no thyroid can function the same on a normal TDEE. Since medicine is now the means of production, we do not have the gland to adjust our levels. Therefore, we are working in a tighter scale. Just thought maybe someone in this world has done some sort of research to see where that scale lies now. :) so far this study doesn't exist!!

    example: if meds only necessitates a 20% reduction in calories for TDEE.---2,000 cal for example for one to maintain this person would need 1600 only. Thus a calorie deficit can only happen at a reduction from 1600.

    I know we are all different based on our activity levels, weight, heights, etc. I just want my formula. :)
  • Doctorpurple
    Doctorpurple Posts: 507 Member
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    I'm sorry to say this but discontinuing your medications was a wrong move. I'm a medical student (not a doctor yet) and I really think that your hypothyroidism cannot be cured by diet and exercise alone. Its not the same as with Type II diabetes or hypertension that you skip the meds and replace with healthy lifestyle. Do you know what caused your hypothyroidism? Is it an autoimmune disease? If you are not feeling any improvement with medications, the solution is not stop taking them altogether. The solution is to explore other types of medications that can possibly make it better. I wonder if you consulted with your doctor before deciding to just stop taking drugs altogether. Low carb diets would not work for hypothyroid people. That doesn't even make sense. You are already low on energy and low carb diets has the potential to slow metabolism even more. You are just doing yourself more harm than good.

    As for your daily caloric intake to lose weight. Yes you would need less calories to lose weight than MFP is saying because those numbers are for synthyroid people. Again, I would really like to know how you become hypothyroid (the cause). I think I will give a more specific advice with that info

    I have to disagree a bit with Dr. Purple that low carb diets have the potential to slow metabolism. Not sure why that would be so. Lower carbs reduce insulin spiking but I don't see that slowing metabolism. There have been studies where ketogenic diets have been used for treating thyroid diseases like Hashimoto's disease. Not prescribing a diet here but shifting some of your existing calories from carbs to good fat sources and keeping within your calories may be something to try. But I am not a doc and don't play one on TV.

    I'm not sure why this is not common knowledge but ketosis is not the ideal way that a body functions. When you eat low carbohydrate diets, your body is forced to convert glycogen to glucose (glycogenolysis) in order to have a source of energy. This is as opposed to just using glucose from the diet to perform regular aerobic metabolism (glycolysis+ TCA cycle+ electron transport chain). This process happens until someone rans out of glycogen. When you body runs of out glycogen which happens in a about 24-48 hours of no carbs. You start breaking down your muscle and fat (ketosis) in order to feed your brain. Since the brain only uses glucose or ketones (less preferred) for energy. The process of ketosis is so much slower than regular metabolism that people on low carb diet feel weak, with compromised brain function and slower metabolism. There are multiple studies done that ketogenic diet lowers down T3 levels. A simple google search can help you educate yourself on this topic.

    Lower carbs reduce insulin spiking and you're right that it has nothing do do with thyroid disease.

    The OP: I stand corrected, there are no such thing is indisputable knowledge. Although you pretty much nit-picked my advice to find something wrong. You are an adult and you do make your own decisions about your health which is why you stick with your belief even when a sound advice is given. What I meant is for you to search for source that again is peer-reviewed, reliable, based on some clinical trial and not just an opinion of some random person on a the internet.