what is a plateau, and does it really exist?

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  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    What do you define as a plateau?

    That's part of my question. Seems like most people talk about them as a fairly sudden but somewhat prolonged lack of results/progress.

    Let me rephrase: What metric are you using? Losing weight? Gaining LBM? Gaining Weight? Lifts going up?

    Seems like most people use the term with respect to weight loss, which is what spurred the post. IMO, strength related plateaus are more plausible as strength and mass are linked, and at some point you'll hit a ceiling with one if you're not also progressing in the other. At least in theory... not sure how that works out in the real world though.

    Well in the general context of obese or overweight I would say that yes plateaus exist if we define plateau as "not making any progress".

    I think they exist mostly out of user error and I think they happen due to failure to maintain an energy deficit. My belief is that this failure comes from intake errors and adaptive thermogenesis. Hormones obviously play a role here but you can always create an energy deficit even if metabolic downregulation occurs. Impatience, lack of adherence, failure to take diet breaks at reasonable intervals, downregulation of NEAT, all kinds of things working against prolonged weightloss.

    So I'd say yes they exist, but not in the context that people usually think. They usually think "I just can't lose weight and I'm doing everything right".

    Good stuff, thanks.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    my take on plateaus:

    1) If you are really eating at a deficit, they don't STOP weight loss, they slow it. It is your body's way of conserving energy to make the most of your intake, but your body can't overcome thermodynamics and magically produce energy.

    2) Most people on here think they are plateaued because they aren't taking good enough measurements over a long enough period of time to tell the difference.

    3) If you are eating at a small deficit and manage to slow your metabolism enough, you CAN stop weight loss, but only because you aren't eating at a deficit anymore. IE - typical TDEE = 2000 cal; losing weight at a 125 calorie deficit; manage to slow metabolism by 125 calories; new deficit = 0 = maintaining weight.

    4) People tend to no recalculate their BMR often enough, which can cause a perceived plateau because you don't need as many calories now.

    5) No plateau can't be broken by reducing calories again.

    6) eating more to lose weight works in some cases, but is abused considerably on this site.

    Exactly my thoughts... though way better said than I could ever do.
  • OddChoices
    OddChoices Posts: 244 Member
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    I'm too conditioned to the workouts I do now

    Does this really happen though? As I get "better" at something (either stronger with my lifting, faster with my running, etc) I push myself harder (I lift heavier, I run faster/longer, etc) and have never noticed my body get too conditioned.

    Do they get conditioned to the workout, or conditioned to the intensity of the workout?

    I think you get conditioned yo the workout. My weight loss has currently stalled. I increased my sprint speed from 7mph to 9mph and reduced the rest intervals for HIIT. There is a HUGE gain in body's ability to run faster but the faster sprint's aren't helping with weight loss.

    Weight loss is dependent on so many factors in addition to calories in and calories out. For women especially hormonal changes are also added to the mix of factors. I notice that for me a regular sleep cycle is necessary to boost my weight loss.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
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    I see a plateau in two ways:

    - in terms of weight loss, when despite significant efforts, and above target weight, no more weight loss is achieved.
    This occurs sometimes due to changes in metabolism as weight is lost - due to the effects of metabolic adaptation due to lost weight but also long-term hormonal repsonse to calorie restriction. These plateaus can be also caused by underlying medical conditions hypothyroidism, T3-T4 feedback changes without thyroid disfunction, calcitonin activity, PCOS, etc... in some individuals, even high levels of cardio (4000+ weeks) do not "break through" and more severe calorie restriction can even lead to psychological response of binging, depression, etc.. Given that BMR variances for a persons with the same LBM are reported to be as high as 30% and even can significantly vary for the same individual - this isn't putting to question the old "calories in - calories out" paradigm just that a variety of factors affect true BMR level and the tools to estimate these are crude.

    In terms of time, if you aren't changing at all after 3-4 weeks (and your plan is loss), I think it's fair to consider that what you are doing is not working.

    tl;dr - it's a plateau after a month.

    - exercise plateaus, in terms of specific training, no advancement is made in strength, performance, etc until an undetermined element is adjusted. Performance plateaus and breakthrough training or adjustments exist. But I guess we are not talking about that.
  • lambch0ps
    lambch0ps Posts: 79 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured. It just seems like a plateau when weight loss gradually slows from on average 1, 0.5, 0.25 llbs/week oand then 0 lbs/week over an 10 month period, when I see some of my pals flying right past me, at similar age and similar amount to lose. I will stick it out, because I know the there is no alternative, but it would be nice to break this not-actually-a-plateau. I have taken breaks and I have changed things up. I continue to be able to lift more weight, do more push-ups, etc. and measurements go down every so slightly. But what is NEAT and how do I prevent down regulation? I'm willing to become a test case...maybe others will join me?
  • GauchoMark
    GauchoMark Posts: 1,804 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured. It just seems like a plateau when weight loss gradually slows from on average 1, 0.5, 0.25 llbs/week oand then 0 lbs/week over an 10 month period, when I see some of my pals flying right past me, at similar age and similar amount to lose. I will stick it out, because I know the there is no alternative, but it would be nice to break this not-actually-a-plateau. I have taken breaks and I have changed things up. I continue to be able to lift more weight, do more push-ups, etc. and measurements go down every so slightly. But what is NEAT and how do I prevent down regulation? I'm willing to become a test case...maybe others will join me?

    have you reduced calories further or recalculated your goals to reflect your new weight?
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured. It just seems like a plateau when weight loss gradually slows from on average 1, 0.5, 0.25 llbs/week oand then 0 lbs/week over an 10 month period, when I see some of my pals flying right past me, at similar age and similar amount to lose. I will stick it out, because I know the there is no alternative, but it would be nice to break this not-actually-a-plateau. I have taken breaks and I have changed things up. I continue to be able to lift more weight, do more push-ups, etc. and measurements go down every so slightly. But what is NEAT and how do I prevent down regulation? I'm willing to become a test case...maybe others will join me?

    I'm not saying that weight loss doesn't slow/stop, sometimes for months and years. I'm saying that it's not because your body has somehow become conditioned to your current approach, and that a changing in your approach will magically fix things.
  • KristenE83
    KristenE83 Posts: 187 Member
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    I'm too conditioned to the workouts I do now

    Does this really happen though? As I get "better" at something (either stronger with my lifting, faster with my running, etc) I push myself harder (I lift heavier, I run faster/longer, etc) and have never noticed my body get too conditioned.

    Do they get conditioned to the workout, or conditioned to the intensity of the workout?

    This is a great point!!! I think I'm conditioned to the intensity.... which is controlled by me. In all fairness, I didn't give you facts. I take an instructor led kickboxing (not cardio-dancy kb) class. I can only do so much w/ an instructor led class. Which is why I joined a gym so I can fully control what I do and fully push myself. The kickboxing is still an awesome workout, but I need more.
  • lambch0ps
    lambch0ps Posts: 79 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured. It just seems like a plateau when weight loss gradually slows from on average 1, 0.5, 0.25 llbs/week oand then 0 lbs/week over an 10 month period, when I see some of my pals flying right past me, at similar age and similar amount to lose. I will stick it out, because I know the there is no alternative, but it would be nice to break this not-actually-a-plateau. I have taken breaks and I have changed things up. I continue to be able to lift more weight, do more push-ups, etc. and measurements go down every so slightly. But what is NEAT and how do I prevent down regulation? I'm willing to become a test case...maybe others will join me?

    have you reduced calories further or recalculated your goals to reflect your new weight?

    I started at 1200. I went up closer to 1500 (I have a very slow metabolism - I don't think BMR calculations are accurate for me) for much of the time along the way. Been back down at 1200 for the most part since beginning of January. I don't think its wise to go below that.
  • GauchoMark
    GauchoMark Posts: 1,804 Member
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    are you weighing your food? like... all of it?
  • lambch0ps
    lambch0ps Posts: 79 Member
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    are you weighing your food? like... all of it?

    yup. got myself a new food scale for x-mas, but was weighing before that too.
  • lambch0ps
    lambch0ps Posts: 79 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured. It just seems like a plateau when weight loss gradually slows from on average 1, 0.5, 0.25 llbs/week oand then 0 lbs/week over an 10 month period, when I see some of my pals flying right past me, at similar age and similar amount to lose. I will stick it out, because I know the there is no alternative, but it would be nice to break this not-actually-a-plateau. I have taken breaks and I have changed things up. I continue to be able to lift more weight, do more push-ups, etc. and measurements go down every so slightly. But what is NEAT and how do I prevent down regulation? I'm willing to become a test case...maybe others will join me?

    I'm not saying that weight loss doesn't slow/stop, sometimes for months and years. I'm saying that it's not because your body has somehow become conditioned to your current approach, and that a changing in your approach will magically fix things.

    It sounds like you saying that there is no hope then, but I do plan on changing things up again...and maybe start a test group because it would nice to be able to answer these burning questions!
  • GauchoMark
    GauchoMark Posts: 1,804 Member
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    are you weighing your food? like... all of it?

    yup. got myself a new food scale for x-mas, but was weighing before that too.

    not to be difficult, but after looking at your diary, I HIGHLY doubt this. For one, you eat out a lot, so unless you are taking your scale in with you, that is estimated. Secondly, everything in your diary is listed as a whole number (1 oz, 1 tbsp, etc.) that just doesn't happen when you are weighing things.

    My diary isn't uncommon to have 183 grams of an apple... In the week I looked at, I never saw anything that wasn't a whole number or just a restaurant quantity.

    You probably don't want to hear this, but if you cut back some more, you will lose weight because you aren't REALLY eating 1200 calories a day right now (even though your log says you are)
  • Greenrun99
    Greenrun99 Posts: 2,065 Member
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    I'm not saying that weight loss doesn't slow/stop, sometimes for months and years. I'm saying that it's not because your body has somehow become conditioned to your current approach, and that a changing in your approach will magically fix things.

    I think your body does adapt to your routine.. if your eating 1200 calories and you weigh 200+lbs, doing 6 days of cardio/strength training, burning 400-500 calories a day.. if your body doesn't adapt to your intake amount you should be able to lose weight quickly and steadily until your at goal, cause that persons TDEE should probably never reach 1200, but that person will see a scale decrease, followed by a nice stall.
  • myofibril
    myofibril Posts: 4,500 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured.

    I think that's exactly right and that it is very, very common. This is especially true for women where water retention and the menstrual cycle can easily mask fat loss on the scale. If you are truly at a deficit some fat loss is inevitable although the rate may be painfully slow.

    Now, it is likely that your metabolic rate has slowed significantly if you are seeing little improvement at 1,200 calories.

    Personally, I think a very deliberate and slow approach is needed to get it back up to where it should be and from which you can cut calories again. Cutting from 1,200 is not going to lead you very far.

    I would suggest adding 50 - 75 calories per week systematically every week until you get to a calorie level where your weight stays the same for 4 weeks (do not worry about a temporary spike or less here or there - it is the consistent trend which is important.)

    You might be surprised how far you get. I tried reverse dieting from the beginning of this year and I got up to 3000 calories with only two short weights workouts per week to maintain which almost made me fall off my chair. Unfortunately, life stuck its oar in recently so I haven't managed to follow it right through.

    Anyway, once you get to a high level of calories to maintain then re establish a 500 calorie deficit from there. What do you think will be better in the long term? Having to cut from 1,200 or say 1,800 to lose weight?

    I know this sounds a bit counter intuitive but sometimes gaining is the very best thing you can do to lose weight in the long term.

    However, it should be done methodically, slowly and deliberately.

    ETA: this all presumes you have been accurately calculating intake as has been mentioned above ;) If not, then you really need to get that under control first....
  • lambch0ps
    lambch0ps Posts: 79 Member
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    are you weighing your food? like... all of it?

    yup. got myself a new food scale for x-mas, but was weighing before that too.

    not to be difficult, but after looking at your diary, I HIGHLY doubt this. For one, you eat out a lot, so unless you are taking your scale in with you, that is estimated. Secondly, everything in your diary is listed as a whole number (1 oz, 1 tbsp, etc.) that just doesn't happen when you are weighing things.

    My diary isn't uncommon to have 183 grams of an apple... In the week I looked at, I never saw anything that wasn't a whole number or just a restaurant quantity.

    You probably don't want to hear this, but if you cut back some more, you will lose weight because you aren't REALLY eating 1200 calories a day right now (even though your log says you are)

    You really weigh apples? How much calorie difference is there between the MFP default for apple and precise measurement of one? 25 calories? Correction - I weigh meat and complex carbs. Never weighed vegetables and fruit. And when I eat out, I use the old deck of cards = 4 ounces. But in your response there is a glimmer of hope - I will measure everything single thing I eat (I can't weigh a subway sandwich - Jared didn't either - but I will try to eat out less) and see if it makes a difference.
  • lambch0ps
    lambch0ps Posts: 79 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured.

    I think that's exactly right and that it is very, very common. This is especially true for women where water retention and the menstrual cycle can easily mask fat loss on the scale. If you are truly at a deficit some fat loss is inevitable although the rate may be painfully slow.

    Now, it is likely that your metabolic rate has slowed significantly if you are seeing little improvement at 1,200 calories.

    Personally, I think a very deliberate and slow approach is needed to get it back up to where it should be and from which you can cut calories again. Cutting from 1,200 is not going to lead you very far.

    I would suggest adding 50 - 75 calories per week systematically every week until you get to a calorie level where your weight stays the same for 4 weeks (do not worry about a temporary spike or less here or there - it is the consistent trend which is important.)

    You might be surprised how far you get. I tried reverse dieting from the beginning of this year and I got up to 3000 calories with only two short weights workouts per week to maintain which almost made me fall off my chair. Unfortunately, life stuck its oar in recently so I haven't managed to follow it right through.

    Anyway, once you get to a high level of calories to maintain then re establish a 500 calorie deficit from there. What do you think will be better in the long term? Having to cut from 1,200 or say 1,800 to lose weight?

    I know this sounds a bit counter intuitive but sometimes gaining is the very best thing you can do to lose weight in the long term.

    However, it should be done methodically, slowly and deliberately.

    ETA: this all presumes you have been accurately calculating intake as has been mentioned above ;) If not, then you really need to get that under control first....

    Ok thanks - gonna check my calories first, and then try this after.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    Maybe your right that its not really a plateau that I've been on for the past 4 months, maybe weight loss has just slowed to the point that it can't be measured. It just seems like a plateau when weight loss gradually slows from on average 1, 0.5, 0.25 llbs/week oand then 0 lbs/week over an 10 month period, when I see some of my pals flying right past me, at similar age and similar amount to lose. I will stick it out, because I know the there is no alternative, but it would be nice to break this not-actually-a-plateau. I have taken breaks and I have changed things up. I continue to be able to lift more weight, do more push-ups, etc. and measurements go down every so slightly. But what is NEAT and how do I prevent down regulation? I'm willing to become a test case...maybe others will join me?

    I'm not saying that weight loss doesn't slow/stop, sometimes for months and years. I'm saying that it's not because your body has somehow become conditioned to your current approach, and that a changing in your approach will magically fix things.

    It sounds like you saying that there is no hope then, but I do plan on changing things up again...and maybe start a test group because it would nice to be able to answer these burning questions!

    I'm not saying anything about you or your situation, I'm talking more globally about people's tendancy to scream about how their body has adapted to a workout and how the plateau is killing their motivation.

    I don't know anything about you or what you have or haven't been doing.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    I'm not saying that weight loss doesn't slow/stop, sometimes for months and years. I'm saying that it's not because your body has somehow become conditioned to your current approach, and that a changing in your approach will magically fix things.

    I think your body does adapt to your routine.. if your eating 1200 calories and you weigh 200+lbs, doing 6 days of cardio/strength training, burning 400-500 calories a day.. if your body doesn't adapt to your intake amount you should be able to lose weight quickly and steadily until your at goal, cause that persons TDEE should probably never reach 1200, but that person will see a scale decrease, followed by a nice stall.

    What are you basing this on?
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
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    are you weighing your food? like... all of it?

    yup. got myself a new food scale for x-mas, but was weighing before that too.

    not to be difficult, but after looking at your diary, I HIGHLY doubt this. For one, you eat out a lot, so unless you are taking your scale in with you, that is estimated. Secondly, everything in your diary is listed as a whole number (1 oz, 1 tbsp, etc.) that just doesn't happen when you are weighing things.

    My diary isn't uncommon to have 183 grams of an apple... In the week I looked at, I never saw anything that wasn't a whole number or just a restaurant quantity.

    You probably don't want to hear this, but if you cut back some more, you will lose weight because you aren't REALLY eating 1200 calories a day right now (even though your log says you are)

    You really weigh apples? How much calorie difference is there between the MFP default for apple and precise measurement of one? 25 calories? Correction - I weigh meat and complex carbs. Never weighed vegetables and fruit. And when I eat out, I use the old deck of cards = 4 ounces. But in your response there is a glimmer of hope - I will measure everything single thing I eat (I can't weigh a subway sandwich - Jared didn't either - but I will try to eat out less) and see if it makes a difference.

    I'd bet that your restaurant calorie intakes are much higher than you think. Not sure where you're eating, but EVERYTHING I've ever eaten out was more cals (and sometimes double or triple) than the equivalent I made at home.

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