Squatting and Dancers

ShaniWulffe
ShaniWulffe Posts: 458 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
So I am a dancer. I've been trying to get into cross-training to stay in shape, even when I'm "off-season" (so to say). I've started trying squats, but they are terribly awkward for my body. After a few, I end up just doing grande plies in second position (here's the best video I could find as an example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1To1WWo1Oo0 ). Is this wrong? I know it's not proper squat form, but if I'm doing it to help my ballet training, then it can't be hurting, can it?

Thanks in advance for the help

Replies

  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    So, let me see if I have this straight...you are doing plies, with weights on your shoulders? Most...hardcore...ballet dancer...ever!
  • ShaniWulffe
    ShaniWulffe Posts: 458 Member
    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing XD Thanks! So that's not a bad thing, then?
  • toddis
    toddis Posts: 941 Member
    Mildly confused, aren't dancers flexible?

    Watch rippetoe videos on youtube to learn how to squat proper-like.

    Doing a plie with weight seems like it would put stress on your body in
    improper places and lead to injury.
  • fit4lifeUcan2
    fit4lifeUcan2 Posts: 1,458 Member
    You might want to run this past your dance instructor and not this forum. My friends daughter dances professionally and she isn't allowed to do weights or play most sports because of what it would do to her muscles for one thing plus her flexibility and possible injuries. She's been dancing since she was 4 and is 19 now. I would think it depends on the type of dancing you do, how often and if your a professional dancer or not. But check with your dance coach/instructor.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Yeah, that's exactly what I'm doing XD Thanks! So that's not a bad thing, then?

    I honestly couldn't say, as you didn't indicate how much weight you are using, nor did you give us a video of exactly what you are doing. The instructional video you posted helped to give a vague idea, but we can't really see what you are doing with your various body parts from that video.

    For example, if you are contorting your legs in the exact manner as shown in that video with 225+ on your shoulders, you may be causing minor injuries to your ankles and knees that won't really manifest themselves until they have compounded into a giant ball of owies. However, if you are doing this with relatively light weight, I can't see where it would be any more harmful than an overweight person performing the same movements.

    I've always been a fan of "train for the sport you are participating in", but this is one of those things that could go either way, depending upon a few factors.
  • Jamcnair
    Jamcnair Posts: 586 Member
    Plies target inner thighs more and squats target quads and butt more, I do believe
  • sleepytexan
    sleepytexan Posts: 3,138 Member
    I've been a dancer my entire life. I squat 155 lbs. low, *kitten* to grass, with knees facing forward. you can do it.
  • ShaniWulffe
    ShaniWulffe Posts: 458 Member
    Thanks for the advice, guys. In response to fit4lifeucan2, my instructors are all huge fans of cross-training and weight lifting. They all work as professional dancers when they're not teaching, as well, so there's that

    And to Gallowmere198, I definitely don't squat/plie with that much weight. So thank you for that :)
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Plies target inner thighs more and squats target quads and butt more, I do believe

    Squats make use of all of the musculature in the legs, including adductors.
  • mfpcopine
    mfpcopine Posts: 3,093 Member
    I've never heard of a professional ballet dancer who did squats with weights, especially a woman. I have a friend who knew a principal dancer in the New York City Ballet. They discussed her routine.
  • sleepytexan
    sleepytexan Posts: 3,138 Member
    I've never heard of a professional ballet dancer who did squats with weights, especially a woman.

    there might be many things of which you have not heard.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    I've never heard of a professional ballet dancer who did squats with weights, especially a woman.

    Inb4 "ballet dancers don't want bulky legs".
  • mfpcopine
    mfpcopine Posts: 3,093 Member
    I've never heard of a professional ballet dancer who did squats with weights, especially a woman.

    Inb4 "ballet dancers don't want bulky legs".
    Yeah, lifting destroys their line. I'm not a balletomane anymore, but in the past the schools that train professional dancers did not allow students to to do weight work on their legs, especially women. Weight work can over develop one's legs for ballet.
  • EmpressOrange
    EmpressOrange Posts: 40
    You might want to run this past your dance instructor and not this forum. My friends daughter dances professionally and she isn't allowed to do weights or play most sports because of what it would do to her muscles for one thing plus her flexibility and possible injuries. She's been dancing since she was 4 and is 19 now. I would think it depends on the type of dancing you do, how often and if your a professional dancer or not. But check with your dance coach/instructor.

    Back when I was skinny and a dancer, my instructor and my mother ( also an old school hardcore ballerina) also banned me from a lot of sports. I wasn't allowed to roller blade or ride my bicycle too much because it would screw up my form. When I got interested in boxing I was yelled at lol.
    I felt like such a rebel borrowing my friend's roller blades =)
  • acpgee
    acpgee Posts: 7,943 Member
    I've never heard of a professional ballet dancer who did squats with weights, especially a woman.

    there might be many things of which you have not heard.

    I met a dancer at a major Canadian company who told me all the dancers there were encouraged to do weights. Artistic director liked a muscular look.
  • sleepytexan
    sleepytexan Posts: 3,138 Member
    Women used to not be allowed to vote or own property either.
  • Gallowmere1984
    Gallowmere1984 Posts: 6,626 Member
    Women used to not be allowed to vote or own property either.

    Comparing suffrage to weight lifting might be a little bit...out there, unless we are talking certain middle eastern countries where women have been recently threatened with all kinds of nasty stuff due to competing in weight lifting.
  • mfpcopine
    mfpcopine Posts: 3,093 Member
    Women used to not be allowed to vote or own property either.

    Comparing suffrage to weight lifting might be a little bit...out there, unless we are talking certain middle eastern countries where women have been recently threatened with all kinds of nasty stuff due to competing in weight lifting.

    Thanks. And the New York City Ballet is one of the greatest ballet companies in the the world. Its feeder school, the School of the American Ballet, produces graduates who go to the best companies all over the world. I know two women who went there as kids and they didn't do leg weight work.
  • mfpcopine
    mfpcopine Posts: 3,093 Member
    You might want to run this past your dance instructor and not this forum. My friends daughter dances professionally and she isn't allowed to do weights or play most sports because of what it would do to her muscles for one thing plus her flexibility and possible injuries. She's been dancing since she was 4 and is 19 now. I would think it depends on the type of dancing you do, how often and if your a professional dancer or not. But check with your dance coach/instructor.

    Back when I was skinny and a dancer, my instructor and my mother ( also an old school hardcore ballerina) also banned me from a lot of sports. I wasn't allowed to roller blade or ride my bicycle too much because it would screw up my form. When I got interested in boxing I was yelled at lol.
    I felt like such a rebel borrowing my friend's roller blades =)

    Those restrictions are universal for dance students with professional potential. Certain exercises develop the body in a way that is considered unappealing for dance. The goal is to create a long line.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    I think the reason you find it difficult is a mental thing because as a ballet dancer you have trained to always hold your body in alignment, with your bum pulled in and never ever EVER to stick your butt out. So, it is awkward to shift gears and do squats in which you stick your butt way out, and hold your body in a position that goes against everything you have been taught in ballet. But, as others said, there is no reason that you can not learn how to do that and not have it negatively impact your dancing. You should, of course, be careful to prevent injury since as a dancer, your body is your livelihood. But, lifting weights does help to actually prevent injury, and actually improves flexibility. Stronger muscles are more flexible and resilient. Lifting weights does not build "bulky" muscles (especially if you do not have that body type), and if it did then you could just stop or take a step back on the things that are creating an issue for you. It's really very easy to do that. I used to do ballet, but I do not do ballet anymore. I am a professional contemporary dancer. I also lift weights in the ways that are supportive to my fitness and dancing.
  • Lupercalia
    Lupercalia Posts: 1,857 Member
    I think the reason you find it difficult is a mental thing because as a ballet dancer you have trained to always hold your body in alignment, with your bum pulled in and never ever EVER to stick your butt out. So, it is awkward to shift gears and do squats in which you stick your butt way out, and hold your body in a position that goes against everything you have been taught in ballet. But, as others said, there is no reason that you can not learn how to do that and not have it negatively impact your dancing. You should, of course, be careful to prevent injury since as a dancer, your body is your livelihood. But, lifting weights does help to actually prevent injury, and actually improves flexibility. Stronger muscles are more flexible and resilient. Lifting weights does not build "bulky" muscles (especially if you do not have that body type), and if it did then you could just stop or take a step back on the things that are creating an issue for you. It's really very easy to do that. I used to do ballet, but I do not do ballet anymore. I am a professional contemporary dancer.
    \

    ^^^That was a great response. Here's what my son said when I asked:

    Squatting is kind of awkward for him. He doesn't have any trouble with plies, but squats are a different story. I'm guessing this is because of what BinaryPulsar said about the nature of ballet training.

    He says he has trouble with the squat movement pattern because his quads and hips are tight. He thinks the front of dancer's legs can get overworked and out of balance with the back of their legs--hamstrings/glutes.

    He says in his experience, it's not typical for female ballet dancers to do squats unless they're off for some time, or have been specifically told to do so by their physio or teacher for some reason. Apparently some of the women he dances with are assigned exercises to strengthen hamstrings and glutes, but not quads, because the quads already get so much work in every day classes.

    He's currently finishing his training and has danced at some of the top professional ballet schools in the US, Canada, and Europe.

    My thoughts are that strength training in a safe and reasonable way benefits EVERYONE, period.
  • Lupercalia
    Lupercalia Posts: 1,857 Member
    You might want to run this past your dance instructor and not this forum. My friends daughter dances professionally and she isn't allowed to do weights or play most sports because of what it would do to her muscles for one thing plus her flexibility and possible injuries. She's been dancing since she was 4 and is 19 now. I would think it depends on the type of dancing you do, how often and if your a professional dancer or not. But check with your dance coach/instructor.

    Back when I was skinny and a dancer, my instructor and my mother ( also an old school hardcore ballerina) also banned me from a lot of sports. I wasn't allowed to roller blade or ride my bicycle too much because it would screw up my form. When I got interested in boxing I was yelled at lol.
    I felt like such a rebel borrowing my friend's roller blades =)

    Those restrictions are universal for dance students with professional potential. Certain exercises develop the body in a way that is considered unappealing for dance. The goal is to create a long line.

    That is true--when my son came home on extended breaks from his professional schools, they would call home to speak to me and inquire about what it was he'd be doing over the break. Not just formal exercise, but also to see if we had any adventurous holidays planned that included sports or activities they didn't want him participating in. I'm talking stuff like skiing, waterskiing, surfing, etc. as well as contact sports. The kids were even prohibited from playing soccer for fun at weekends.

    They liked them to swim and walk, NO RUNNING. Running was a big no-no.
  • ShaniWulffe
    ShaniWulffe Posts: 458 Member
    Thank you for the advice and discussion, all... The sticking the butt out thing is a big point that I hadn't even considered
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    I don't know what the rules are for ballet dancers, as it has been a while since I was doing ballet (and I was considered as professional potential then), but it is not universal for all dancers not to lift weights (I am a contemporary dancer). Lifting weights has not made me bulky at all. I am slim, slender and tiny.

    However, I was told very clearly when I was in college for dance not to ski unless it was something I really loved and could not live without because the risks of injury where just too high and then my career would be ruined from a recreational ski trip. I did not love skiing, I did not even really like it.

    I also did not and do not run because it was not good for my knees (but that is just for me specifically).

    Some dancers were given specific advice for managing their physique. My physique was very dancerly and not overly athletic in any area, so I was not given restrictions like that. But, I'd just like to note, that most dancers have very strong (and visibly so) leg muscles. I've never been told that I needed to change anything about my body as a dancer. There was actually only one time, when I had gotten too thin and I was told to gain weight (I did need to gain 10 pounds), and that was by my ballet teacher (who had trained with the New York City Ballet).

    There are many types of professional dancers. I understand that some people only like ballet (and that's fine if people have that preference), but I don't like seeing people say that something is universally true for all professional dancers when it is not universally true at all. The New York City Ballet is an excellent Ballet Company and they may have their own rules and preferences. But, there are many other ballet and other types of dance companies that have very different preferences for their dancers. Anyone that knows anything about the dance world knows that different companies have different aesthetic goals applying to many aspects of body types. And some companies are specifically innovative. Not everyone can or wants to train with the same company.

    There is also always the possibility that in the past (like in the 80's) people had misconceptions about weight training and do not have those misconceptions anymore.

    But, I do agree that some dancers may need to watch that they do not overdevelop the quadriceps.
  • BinaryPulsar
    BinaryPulsar Posts: 8,927 Member
    I just want to say one thing about this quadriceps issue. It is poor technique when a dancer overdevelops the quadriceps by attempting to use those smaller muscles for the lifting and holding the legs up so high. The dancer needs to use the larger Glutes and Hamstrings. Or else they will end up injured and not be able to progress. and that is the reason dancers should focus on hamstring and and glute strength. If they develop an imbalance and the quadriceps become weak, they will also develop knee problems. So, the muscle strength needs to be balanced. Compound lifts are helpful for that. I personally love doing deadlifts. Those are my favorite.
  • sleepytexan
    sleepytexan Posts: 3,138 Member
    proper squats do not overdevelop the quads. A proper squat is with the hips parallel to, or below the knees. Partial squats overdevelop the quads. BTW, every forward moving activity overdevelops the quads, in that it works the front part of the leg more than the back part of the leg.

    People (and women in particular, who are less likely than men to work their hams and glutes) who do not squat are likely to have quads up to 125% more developed than glutes and hamstrings.

    I no longer do ballet, but I do still teach ballroom and Latin dancing. I've been squatting for a year, and now up to 155#. I'm not bulky, and in fact my 45-year-old ar$e looks a hella-lot better now than it did when I was a skinny ballet dancer ;p

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