Calories-In/Calories-Out? Hmm....

tripful · February 2013

I'm curious to see what the community thinks of the notion that the paradigm of fat is bad, "eat less and exercise more" and calories work like math may simply be a fallacy, or at least partially untrue, especially as I've noticed in these materials:

Gary Taube's Books
Dr. Peter Attia (EatingAcademy.Com)
JumpstartMD's presentation of Taubes and Attia on YouTube
Andreas Eenfelt (The Diet Doctor)
TheLivingLowCarbShow.com with Jimmy Moore
The Art & Sciene Of Low Carbohydrate Living - Volek & Phinney
WheatBellyBlog.com
Jonathan Bailor - SlimIsSimple.org

All of that mentioned, I personally use MFP mostly as an eating and exercise log, as opposed to an out-and-out guide, largely due to a paleo/keto lifestyle of healthy fats, low to medium protein and practically zero fattening carbohydrate. So I happen to break MFP's strict calorie counting model to weight loss and also violate its carb/fat ratio guide, yet I've never felt better and all of my metabolic markers have improved (I've never really had a high degree of metabolic syndrome to begin with, but still...).

One part that I found particularly interesting: MFP told me around the time that I first started logging a couple weeks ago that according to my calorie "overage", I should weight something on the scale of 20-30 pounds more by March, yet I've lost around 7 pounds so far and am burning fat like it's my job! LOL! And exercise for me (as you can see in my open diary) is really nothing more than some light weight training and occasional short runs every other week or so....a mere droplet in the overall daily caloric outlay. When looking at my caloric average, around 4,200 calories/day, something struck me as interesting.... As a WWII-era history fan, I was watching a film on the Eisenhower death camps and heard "4,000 calorie rations" a few times, and it got me looking into the history of how we went from that to a calorie-limited diet off of our so-called "food pyramid" today, which is practically the opposite of people's intakes pre-WWII... very interesting.

So perhaps it's less about simply how many calories we consume and expend, and more about calorie quality and composition that matter most...? Has anyone who has tried a similar adjustment in intake and lifestyle been noticing the same thing?

Thanks for your feedback!
~ Trip

littleblackcar · February 2013

Always be suspicious of commercial "diet information". You can find as many, or more, sites debunking them as you can sites supporting them.

People who don't want to believe that, with a few exceptions, it's calories in, calories out, are looking for a magic fix. They want to lose weight but they don't want to exercise or reform their eating habits or--Heaven forbid!--eat vegetables. You know what actual scientific studies have shown? That a lot of people who "can't lose weight" underreport their food intake and overreport their exercise. Significantly.

You know what low-carbohydrate diets are? They reduce water weight, but they're mostly a disguised way to reduce calorie intake. If you cut out most of a food group, you pretty much can't avoid reducing calories.

Why are you getting your "information" from hucksters and blogs instead of scientific material?

Acg67 · February 2013

I'm curious to see what the community thinks of the notion that the paradigm of fat is bad, "eat less and exercise more" and calories work like math may simply be a fallacy, or at least partially untrue, especially as I've noticed in these materials:

Gary Taube's Books
Dr. Peter Attia (EatingAcademy.Com)
JumpstartMD's presentation of Taubes and Attia on YouTube
Andreas Eenfelt (The Diet Doctor)
TheLivingLowCarbShow.com with Jimmy Moore
The Art & Sciene Of Low Carbohydrate Living - Volek & Phinney
WheatBellyBlog.com
Jonathan Bailor - SlimIsSimple.org

All of that mentioned, I personally use MFP mostly as an eating and exercise log, as opposed to an out-and-out guide, largely due to a paleo/keto lifestyle of healthy fats, low to medium protein and practically zero fattening carbohydrate. So I happen to break MFP's strict calorie counting model to weight loss and also violate its carb/fat ratio guide, yet I've never felt better and all of my metabolic markers have improved (I've never really had a high degree of metabolic syndrome to begin with, but still...).

One part that I found particularly interesting: MFP told me around the time that I first started logging a couple weeks ago that according to my calorie "overage", I should weight something on the scale of 20-30 pounds more by March, yet I've lost around 7 pounds so far and am burning fat like it's my job! LOL! And exercise for me (as you can see in my open diary) is really nothing more than some light weight training and occasional short runs every other week or so....a mere droplet in the overall daily caloric outlay. When looking at my caloric average, around 4,200 calories/day, something struck me as interesting.... As a WWII-era history fan, I was watching a film on the Eisenhower death camps and heard "4,000 calorie rations" a few times, and it got me looking into the history of how we went from that to a calorie-limited diet off of our so-called "food pyramid" today, which is practically the opposite of people's intakes pre-WWII... very interesting.

So perhaps it's less about simply how many calories we consume and expend, and more about calorie quality and composition that matter most...? Has anyone who has tried a similar adjustment in intake and lifestyle been noticing the same thing?

Thanks for your feedback!
~ Trip

LMAO, strong references

skydiveD30571 · February 2013

How do you know fat is what you are losing? It's extremely common to see sudden weight loss on a low carb diet. It's not fat, only glycogen stores emptying. Also, with a low protein intake and little to no resistance training, you are most certainly going to lose lean mass at the same time. I hope you can maintain a low carb diet forever...a vast majority of people haven't figured out how to do that.

tripful · February 2013

Hi skydive,
Thanks for the info. Very good question about the fat loss. All I can say there is what I've seen physically and experienced from a power-to-weight ratio type of feel while exercising, especially during my runs.
Is low-carb something you have ever tried, or perhaps do yourself now? If so, what ways did you find to make it sustainable?
Thanks for your feedback, Trip

tripful · February 2013

Hi acg,
Perhaps I shoudn't have included any of those and just gone on personal experience alone? Not really sure. Aside from suggesting better places to look for references, or maybe better references themselves, do you have a take on the subject? Thanks for your feedback, Trip

ArroganceInStep · February 2013

N=1

How confident are you in the accuracy of your logging? How confident can you expect us to be of your claims?

I've lost a lot more than seven pounds doing something completely different than you (also n=1)

GoTeamMeaghan · February 2013

Wow...so low-carb websites are telling me that a low-carb diet is a good idea...sounds fairly objective.

tripful · February 2013

Hi rtalencar,
Good questions, and yeah, n=1 definitely doesn't mean I can generalize just off of me.
I'd say I'm pretty good at estimating how much it is that I eat. I might be a couple hundred calories off daily, but I've been making sure I log everything. As far as my claims go, it's just what I've noticed based on intake, what I do in terms of activity, and jumping on the scale at the same time (most) every morning. Whether that's believable or not, I'm not really sure.
On your weight loss, that's awesome. Has been anything major theme or balance to you diet?

Acg67 · February 2013

Hi acg,
Perhaps I shoudn't have included any of those and just gone on personal experience alone? Not really sure. Aside from suggesting better places to look for references, or maybe better references themselves, do you have a take on the subject? Thanks for your feedback, Trip

Unless you have a medical reason to do so, low carb tends to have less adherence due to it's restrictiveness. If you find it something easier to adhere to, then by all means continue to do so. However don't listen to all the nonsense on increased fat loss on a low carb diet, when cals and protein is held constant the vast majority of tightly controlled studies have shown no significant difference in low carb or moderate/high carb diets

Confuzzled4ever · February 2013

I never understand why people go on diets that restrict you from eating one thing or another? Barring of course a valid medical reason... You're going to go your whole entire life without eating those foods? Talk about unrealistic! Everyone I know, who did those types of diets gained it all back once they reached thier goal and came off the diet. Anyway.. I like bacon, and cupcakes, and potatoes and fruit.. gimmie carbs. Plus I feel better with a slice of toast slathered in strawberry jam in the morning next to my egg burrito and yogurt then I feel when I skip the toast.. This healthy living journey is quite interesting. :~)

tripful · February 2013

Hi acg,
Thanks for the insight there. I've been on this type of intake for about 8 months now, not sure if that's a long enough time to start to be able to indicate if it feels sustainable, but I see what you're saying definitely. I had planned on going to look at more literature to get a broader feel for the collective opinion, so thank you for the encouragement there. Curious, do you exercise in any particular pattern or amount? I didn't see any in your profile, so just wondering. Thanks again, Trip

tripful · February 2013

Hi confuzzled4ever,
Good points there, thanks for the feedback. I guess I only wonder about the things that perhaps weren't there back when our ancestors were eating food without micro-managing and calorie counting, and they in large part were more lean and healthy than we are today as a population. Then again, they were in a more physical on a day-to-day basis, so that pairs with the consumption differences I'm sure.
Thanks for you additions, Trip

Acg67 · February 2013

Hi acg,
Thanks for the insight there. I've been on this type of intake for about 8 months now, not sure if that's a long enough time to start to be able to indicate if it feels sustainable, but I see what you're saying definitely. I had planned on going to look at more literature to get a broader feel for the collective opinion, so thank you for the encouragement there. Curious, do you exercise in any particular pattern or amount? I didn't see any in your profile, so just wondering. Thanks again, Trip

Just lift 4x a week, sometimes throw in 2 lighter days of lifting as well

tripful · February 2013

Gotcha. Great to know. Somewhat mirrors what I do. Perhaps not to the same extent in time, reps or weight, obviously. On MFP I've actually put those under cardio with names I've added as it seems the only way to allow for general calorie entry without having to be exact on so many reps, so much weight, etc. I'm sure the truly correct types would say that I need to account for all those things if I want to have any type of legitimacy behind the estimations. I did spend some with some various calculators on a few fitness sites that help do those numbers based on body weight, reps, weight lifted, etc. so I think I have a pretty close idea each day. Do you keep track with written logs for yours reps and such? Or just go more by feel/memory?

Timshel_ · February 2013

Hardvard, health journals and a lot of different research science organizations are looking to revamp calories and caloric needs. It isn't that counting calories in and calories out is really bad, but the nubmers themselves are said to be suspicous. Things is, even in these instacnces where people questions counting calories at all, their suggestions are always to eat more of "good thing" (veggies, fruits, lean meats, helathy fats, etc) and exercise at least 30 minutes a day at a moderate exertion raate. After that it splitting hairs between the timing of eating certain things or when you should be working out and how hard.

Bottom line to me is, the boesity problem we have in America, or anywhere, has nothing to do with people eating or exercising at the wrong times, or any of the other micro-issues they raise. It is over-eating. And calorie counting is a very good visual representation that allows people to see it laid out in front of them.

tripful · February 2013

Chaelaz, thanks for the addition. Overeating on the grandest of scales is what I'm reading as your point, which is interesting. For even beyond the amount of "overeating" (non-overeating) that MFP thinks I'm doing (despite being wrong so far for me, at least in my case of N=1) there must obviously must be a limit. It might not be my 4,200/day calorie average, perhaps 6 or 7,000 for me, but some amount where your observation probably holds true.

tripful · February 2013

Bottom line to me is, the boesity problem we have in America, or anywhere, has nothing to do with people eating or exercising at the wrong times, or any of the other micro-issues they raise. It is over-eating. And calorie counting is a very good visual representation that allows people to see it laid out in front of them.

Hi chaelaz, I'm curious as to what you might think of this little vid:
http://eatingacademy.com/weight-loss/why-we-get-fat-video
And yes, I know, I don't have a litany of references to counter and re-counter and balance and counter-balance that link, nor am I trying to advocate for a singular way of thinking. I'm just interested some of these more recent observations as they relate to what I've experienced, which happens to fall into line. Do you think any of what he says hold any merit, based upon your personal experience of what you've seen of the people you know who "overeat"?
Thanks for any more insights, Trip

mmapags · February 2013

I'm curious to see what the community thinks of the notion that the paradigm of fat is bad, "eat less and exercise more" and calories work like math may simply be a fallacy, or at least partially untrue, especially as I've noticed in these materials:

Gary Taube's Books
Dr. Peter Attia (EatingAcademy.Com)
JumpstartMD's presentation of Taubes and Attia on YouTube
Andreas Eenfelt (The Diet Doctor)
TheLivingLowCarbShow.com with Jimmy Moore
The Art & Sciene Of Low Carbohydrate Living - Volek & Phinney
WheatBellyBlog.com
Jonathan Bailor - SlimIsSimple.org

All of that mentioned, I personally use MFP mostly as an eating and exercise log, as opposed to an out-and-out guide, largely due to a paleo/keto lifestyle of healthy fats, low to medium protein and practically zero fattening carbohydrate. So I happen to break MFP's strict calorie counting model to weight loss and also violate its carb/fat ratio guide, yet I've never felt better and all of my metabolic markers have improved (I've never really had a high degree of metabolic syndrome to begin with, but still...).

One part that I found particularly interesting: MFP told me around the time that I first started logging a couple weeks ago that according to my calorie "overage", I should weight something on the scale of 20-30 pounds more by March, yet I've lost around 7 pounds so far and am burning fat like it's my job! LOL! And exercise for me (as you can see in my open diary) is really nothing more than some light weight training and occasional short runs every other week or so....a mere droplet in the overall daily caloric outlay. When looking at my caloric average, around 4,200 calories/day, something struck me as interesting.... As a WWII-era history fan, I was watching a film on the Eisenhower death camps and heard "4,000 calorie rations" a few times, and it got me looking into the history of how we went from that to a calorie-limited diet off of our so-called "food pyramid" today, which is practically the opposite of people's intakes pre-WWII... very interesting.

So perhaps it's less about simply how many calories we consume and expend, and more about calorie quality and composition that matter most...? Has anyone who has tried a similar adjustment in intake and lifestyle been noticing the same thing?

Thanks for your feedback!
~ Trip

LMAO, strong references

The cavalcade of Bozos!

Timshel_ · February 2013

...based upon your personal experience of what you've seen of the people you know who "overeat"?
Thanks for any more insights

I think he has a point about life giving us variations in caloric needs. However, I disagree that being in the obese category is a natural phenomenon that is *only* tied to those varying needs. I've posted many times that I REALLY crave comfort food and fatty stuff during winter months, and generally gain anywher up to 20 pounds at times. That has been a cycle for me through out my life. I can't see holding 50, 100, 200 or more pounds overweight all the time as normal for anyone. I don't beleive bodies need that or crave that. I beleive there are other emotional or environmental issues at play that contribute to it, not the least of which would be the over-eating and not moving enough I mentioned.

That is a very broad generalization that I see and read about for most.

Maybe the science will support it or debunk it.

I am ALWAYS leary of anyone using science or personally funded studies to sell something though. I tend to look more towards acedemic and non-profit research in most cases.

tripful · February 2013

Hi mmapags,
Perhaps I shouldn't have included those references and just gone off personal experience, as others have noted. My apologies for clouding the intent with that if it did for you.
I did notice you're a retired chef (congrats!) and very fit so you probably have a lot of experience with great foods. What are your observations in relations to over/undereating? Or perhaps I'm asking the question the wrong way, nonetheless thanks any additional insight. ~ Trip

mmapags · February 2013

Hi mmapags,
Perhaps I shouldn't have included those references and just gone off personal experience, as others have noted. My apologies for clouding the intent with that if it did for you.
I did notice you're a retired chef (congrats!) and very fit so you probably have a lot of experience with great foods. What are your observations in relations to over/undereating? Or perhaps I'm asking the question the wrong way, nonetheless thanks any additional insight. ~ Trip

I'm not sure what you mean in regard to over or under eating. Calories counting is the best way to estimate energy needs in a day and intake. A heathy macronutrient mix is the best way to keep a healthy diet composition and body composition. It's really no more complicated than that. There is little need, in my view to eliminate this or cut out that.

Edited to add: This assumes a diet compostition of mostly nutrient dense whole foods.

sweebum · February 2013

Always be suspicious of commercial "diet information". You can find as many, or more, sites debunking them as you can sites supporting them.

People who don't want to believe that, with a few exceptions, it's calories in, calories out, are looking for a magic fix. They want to lose weight but they don't want to exercise or reform their eating habits or--Heaven forbid!--eat vegetables. You know what actual scientific studies have shown? That a lot of people who "can't lose weight" underreport their food intake and overreport their exercise. Significantly.

You know what low-carbohydrate diets are? They reduce water weight, but they're mostly a disguised way to reduce calorie intake. If you cut out most of a food group, you pretty much can't avoid reducing calories.

Why are you getting your "information" from hucksters and blogs instead of scientific material?

This. You lost me at "Gary Taube's Books" :laugh:

tripful · February 2013

I think he has a point about life giving us variations in caloric needs. However, I disagree that being in the obese category is a natural phenomenon that is *only* tied to those varying needs. I've posted many times that I REALLY crave comfort food and fatty stuff during winter months, and generally gain anywher up to 20 pounds at times. That has been a cycle for me through out my life. I can't see holding 50, 100, 200 or more pounds overweight all the time as normal for anyone. I don't beleive bodies need that or crave that. I beleive there are other emotional or environmental issues at play that contribute to it, not the least of which would be the over-eating and not moving enough I mentioned.

That is a very broad generalization that I see and read about for most.

Maybe the science will support it or debunk it.

I am ALWAYS leary of anyone using science or personally funded studies to sell something though. I tend to look more towards acedemic and non-profit research in most cases.

It will be interesting if belief and science will coincide (if ever), once future studies flush out one way or another.
And yes, I think it's good to be mindful of what the point is behind the message, in terms of personal gain or agenda.
Thanks again for your feedback,
Trip

stephdeeable · February 2013

tripful · February 2013

You lost me at "Gary Taube's Books" :laugh:

Hi sweebum. I appreciate your insight and I do see that much of that material is not very welcome for plain reasons, and I do see why. Probably would be better to leave those types of references out in latter posts. That said, you appear to be nice and healthy. What do you think has been the key for you? Just balanced of macros and just minding the calories, as mma stated?

LolBroScience · February 2013

From a simple weight loss perspective.... yes calories in vs calories out is all that matters. From a body compostiion perspective, certain individuals will respond better to certain ratios of various macro's.

Look at all of those with great physqiues, it is not done through pure guess work. They are dilligent with tracking what they eat amd making adjustments according to how their body responds.

volume77 · February 2013

I think both sides have a point.....

volume77 · February 2013

I lost alot of weight doing low carb. I also at the time thought I was going to stick with it forever but u get to a point where your body just wants nutrients and although I wish I could stay low carb forever it's much better for me to eat a balanced diet and workout. I have much more energy and I haven't gained all the weight back like everyone says will happen. Yes it works buy no it is not sustainable forever. Your body will retaliate.

skydiveD30571 · March 2013

Hi skydive,
Thanks for the info. Very good question about the fat loss. All I can say there is what I've seen physically and experienced from a power-to-weight ratio type of feel while exercising, especially during my runs.
Is low-carb something you have ever tried, or perhaps do yourself now? If so, what ways did you find to make it sustainable?
Thanks for your feedback, Trip

I haven't tried an extremely low carb diet no, only because I'm tired of short term changes and the eventual return of weight when I can't do it anymore. And any weight you lose on a low carb diet...expect to get it back and some when you come back to eating normal carb levels. Like Acg said, with a reasonable calorie deficit and sufficient protein, there isn't a big difference between low carb/hight fat, moderate/moderate, or high carb/low fat diets. That part takes some trial and error to see what works for you. I did try lowering carb and increasing fat, but I noticed it affected my workout intensity quite a bit. Almost like I was running out of energy so to speak. So now I'm back to a mod/mod split and it fits me much better.

LoraF83 · March 2013

One part that I found particularly interesting: MFP told me around the time that I first started logging a couple weeks ago that according to my calorie "overage", I should weight something on the scale of 20-30 pounds more by March, yet I've lost around 7 pounds so far and am burning fat like it's my job! LOL! And exercise for me (as you can see in my open diary) is really nothing more than some light weight training and occasional short runs every other week or so....a mere droplet in the overall daily caloric outlay. When looking at my caloric average, around 4,200 calories/day, something struck me as interesting.... As a WWII-era history fan, I was watching a film on the Eisenhower death camps and heard "4,000 calorie rations" a few times, and it got me looking into the history of how we went from that to a calorie-limited diet off of our so-called "food pyramid" today, which is practically the opposite of people's intakes pre-WWII... very interesting.

Do you know your TDEE? How are you determining that you eat 4200 calories a day? Do you weigh & measure your food?

Calories-In/Calories-Out? Hmm....

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