If it's calories in/ calories out
wfte
Posts: 195 Member
I know I'm probably stirring up a hornet's nest but it's something I have to ask. I would also be interested to see if anyone can supply a good answer.
If weight loss is all about calories in\calories out, how do you account for the difficulties repeatedly seen by people with thyroid issues or on medications?
So many people struggle to lose weight when on certain medications despite eating at a calorie deficit, same as people with thyroid issues. My mum's doctor even told her when prescribing her some drugs that she'd struggle to lose weight while she was on them.
How does calories in/calories out account for this? Do this pills secretly have 500 cals stored away in them?
If weight loss is all about calories in\calories out, how do you account for the difficulties repeatedly seen by people with thyroid issues or on medications?
So many people struggle to lose weight when on certain medications despite eating at a calorie deficit, same as people with thyroid issues. My mum's doctor even told her when prescribing her some drugs that she'd struggle to lose weight while she was on them.
How does calories in/calories out account for this? Do this pills secretly have 500 cals stored away in them?
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Replies
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If weight loss is all about calories in\calories out, how do you account for the difficulties repeatedly seen by people with thyroid issues or on medications?
"In general" everybody's metabolism and processes in the body to convert and store energy are the same with minor deviations, and very few exaggerated exceptions. Medical issues directly effect those processes and are exaggerated exceptions.
A Google search on Thyroid conditions will explain the science in it.0 -
So your metabolism is controlled by hormones? So wouldn't this suggest that managing to keep your hormones in balance is more important than how many calories you consume/burn, as if your hormones are out of whack it seems all the calorie control in the world will do no good.0
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Sure but hormone levels won't help keep you a healthy weight if you are consuming too many calories per day. Ideally, keeping hormones in check will help make sure the equation is much more straightforward.
Thyroid problems can drop your BMR by several hundred calories per day (easily). This only changes one of the variables in the equation (how much you burn). You can easily change the other part (how much you eat) and still maintain a healthy weight or even lose weight.
Things like injury can also change the same portion of the equation. I blew out my ankle and was in a cast for roughly 12 months (including pre and post op). Then I had a second ankle surgery and was in a cast for 6 months. Both times my weight gain was rapid. It isn't because of the injury itself but because the injury severely impacted how many calories I was burning and I didn't appropriately modify my intake.0 -
I know I'm probably stirring up a hornet's nest but it's something I have to ask. I would also be interested to see if anyone can supply a good answer.
If weight loss is all about calories in\calories out, how do you account for the difficulties repeatedly seen by people with thyroid issues or on medications?
So many people struggle to lose weight when on certain medications despite eating at a calorie deficit, same as people with thyroid issues. My mum's doctor even told her when prescribing her some drugs that she'd struggle to lose weight while she was on them.
How does calories in/calories out account for this? Do this pills secretly have 500 cals stored away in them?
Thyroid problems wreak havoc on the calorie out side of the equation.0 -
Because thyroid issues impact the energy out part of the equation. It does not invalidate the equation.0
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Because thyroid issues impact the energy out part of the equation. It does not invalidate the equation.
this0 -
Thyroid problems can drop your BMR by several hundred calories per day
Do you have a source for this? Not instigating, just curious.0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise. And that maybe there's more playing a part than just what you eat, like the example of thyroid affecting one half of the equation. Could this not be true for many other hormones and body processes?0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.
Yes. Anything that impacts your metabolism change the "calories out" part.0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.
The one thing that should be taken into consideration are carbs - they often have an exacerbating effect on the downregulation of the energy out part of the equation and people often find more success limiting carbs (no low carb - just medium/lowish) and also upping fats.0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.
Yes. Anything that impacts your metabolism change the "calories out" part.
I understand anything affecting metabolism would change the out part. I meant is this most likely the impact that medications are having? A lowering of metabolism.0 -
I know I'm probably stirring up a hornet's nest but it's something I have to ask. I would also be interested to see if anyone can supply a good answer.
If weight loss is all about calories in\calories out, how do you account for the difficulties repeatedly seen by people with thyroid issues or on medications?
So many people struggle to lose weight when on certain medications despite eating at a calorie deficit, same as people with thyroid issues. My mum's doctor even told her when prescribing her some drugs that she'd struggle to lose weight while she was on them.
How does calories in/calories out account for this? Do this pills secretly have 500 cals stored away in them?
It's still calories in/calories out...it's just that someone with a medical condition or taking certain medications is going to have a lower calorie allowance at the same activity level than the average Joe. For example, prior to starting this new medication I'm on, I'd maintain at around 2,650 calories...but my meds decrease the "out" part of the equation for me as they slow my metabolism down by about 10%...so now I maintain right around 2,400 calories with the same activity level. If I had no understanding of calories in/out and what my body needed to maintain/lose, etc, I'd be up poop creek and would have been piling on the pounds.
The equation is still valid...it's just the numbers to achieve my goals changed.0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.
Yes. Anything that impacts your metabolism change the "calories out" part.
I understand anything affecting metabolism would change the out part. I meant is this most likely the impact that medications are having? A lowering of metabolism.
Exactly....medications that have weight gain as a side effect reduce your metabolism...0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.
The one thing that should be taken into consideration are carbs - they often have an exacerbating effect on the downregulation of the energy out part of the equation and people often find more success limiting carbs (no low carb - just medium/lowish) and also upping fats.
Carbs is one of the things I had in mind, with the impact on hormones. Wouldn't this also fly against the "traditional" idea of calories in\calories out (eat less than you "burn" ( I understand effectively you're affecting the out side of the equation but not in any way that can really be measured) or the equally popular a calorie is a calorie concept?0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.
The one thing that should be taken into consideration are carbs - they often have an exacerbating effect on the downregulation of the energy out part of the equation and people often find more success limiting carbs (no low carb - just medium/lowish) and also upping fats.
Carbs is one of the things I had in mind, with the impact on hormones. Wouldn't this also fly against the "traditional" idea of calories in\calories out (eat less than you "burn" ( I understand effectively you're affecting the out side of the equation but not in any way that can really be measured) or the equally popular a calorie is a calorie concept?
Calories in - calories out = weight loss is a thermodynamic fact. Various things can alter either one of those variables.
It sounds like you're trying to say that it's not true, but it is true. It's unavoidable.0 -
I'm not trying to suggest it's not true. I'm trying to suggest that people very often try to make it a lot simpler than it actually is.
As we've already suggested, there's many other factors that can affect your energy out, besides a normal daily routine plus exercise. Also the impact insulin plays on "fuel" allocation and storage, that can make the calorie in side a whole lot harder.
All I'm trying to do is question the idea that its:
1) Figure out standard BMR
2) Add on exercise calories ( which is nowhere near a science in trying to work that one out, at best its a VERY rough guess)
3) Eat less than this amount
4) Lose weight
There's often other factors, usually hormonal ones, that can affect sides of this equation. What we eat can affect these hormones and their impacts, therefore not making the equation quite so straight forward and certainly not making a calorie a calorie.0 -
What we eat can affect these hormones and their impacts
Without presenting an example that only exists in internet discussions (by using unrealistic quantities), can you cite an example?and certainly not making a calorie a calorie.
^ I disagree with this conclusion.0 -
Thyroid problems can drop your BMR by several hundred calories per day
Do you have a source for this? Not instigating, just curious.
Thyroid hormones regulate your metabolic level. Low thyroid hormones= slower metabolism. Since BMR stands for base metabolic rate. BMR goes down with less thyroid hormones due to hypothyroidism. This is a well known fact.0 -
Yes hormones do control your metabolism. If thyroid is out of whack, then a combination of medical help and calorie control are needed to lose weight.So your metabolism is controlled by hormones? So wouldn't this suggest that managing to keep your hormones in balance is more important than how many calories you consume/burn, as if your hormones are out of whack it seems all the calorie control in the world will do no good.
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Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
so eat a varied diet that you believe will help with your hormonal issues and stay in a theoretical deficit (if you are after weight loss)0
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All I'm trying to do is question the idea that its:
1) Figure out standard BMR
2) Add on exercise calories ( which is nowhere near a science in trying to work that one out, at best its a VERY rough guess)
3) Eat less than this amount
4) Lose weight
Actually, if you did what you said, you can skip step 3.
Because you are forgetting your total daily burn is more than just your BMR and exercise added together.
Eating food burns calories. Your daily activity burns calories. There is a slight difference between BMR and RMR that burns an extra 100-200 calories.
So if you did take best estimate of BMR and added back decently accurate exercise calories, you would still lose weight.
Another problem you didn't include that some studies have shown is the Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis can be lowered if you eat too little, basically your body reserves enough calories for high priority stuff by slowing down other activity - fidgeting or more.
So like you knock yourself out with a 600 calories workout, and because body is underfed, you sit as a bump on a log for 3 hrs that night compared to running around with the kids, where you would have burned say 600 calories too. Net daily burn increase - nothing.0 -
So like you knock yourself out with a 600 calories workout, and because body is underfed, you sit as a bump on a log for 3 hrs that night compared to running around with the kids, where you would have burned say 600 calories too. Net daily burn increase - nothing.
This I totally agree with. I know it's once again affecting one half of the equation but I'm not suggesting the equation is wrong. I'm suggesting it's made too simple. Often the body does compensate to some degree for exercise done, therefore making the calculations for your energy usage even harder to make.0 -
Thyroid problems can drop your BMR by several hundred calories per day
Do you have a source for this? Not instigating, just curious.
Thyroid hormones regulate your metabolic level. Low thyroid hormones= slower metabolism. Since BMR stands for base metabolic rate. BMR goes down with less thyroid hormones due to hypothyroidism. This is a well known fact.
^^ This. The exact amount that metabolism will be impacted varies with how severely thyroid is impacted.0 -
Along similar lines - I have a thermostat in my room set to a constant temperature.
Yet when I'm on a lower overall calorie intake I find I need to wear pyjamas rather than just boxers to stay warm.
When I'm eating around TDEE I feel much less 'need' to have my cans of coke zero to keep me going.
I would conclude that my metabolism does 'slow down' in such cases.
Calories in vs calories out still works - it's just that calories out has reduced a bit.0 -
Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?
I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.
The one thing that should be taken into consideration are carbs - they often have an exacerbating effect on the downregulation of the energy out part of the equation and people often find more success limiting carbs (no low carb - just medium/lowish) and also upping fats.
Carbs is one of the things I had in mind, with the impact on hormones. Wouldn't this also fly against the "traditional" idea of calories in\calories out (eat less than you "burn" ( I understand effectively you're affecting the out side of the equation but not in any way that can really be measured) or the equally popular a calorie is a calorie concept?
No. As already mentioned, it impacts your calories out. I think you are over thinking this (not the thyroid issue, but the math).0 -
I'm not trying to suggest it's not true. I'm trying to suggest that people very often try to make it a lot simpler than it actually is.
As we've already suggested, there's many other factors that can affect your energy out, besides a normal daily routine plus exercise. Also the impact insulin plays on "fuel" allocation and storage, that can make the calorie in side a whole lot harder.
All I'm trying to do is question the idea that its:
1) Figure out standard BMR
2) Add on exercise calories ( which is nowhere near a science in trying to work that one out, at best its a VERY rough guess)
3) Eat less than this amount
4) Lose weight
There's often other factors, usually hormonal ones, that can affect sides of this equation. What we eat can affect these hormones and their impacts, therefore not making the equation quite so straight forward and certainly not making a calorie a calorie.
All you are doing here is creating a circular equation.0 -
It is individual..that is why all the opinions. If you're lucky..that will be the case...but for some of us..it is what we eat that matters just as much as the calories we eat each day.0
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Then if it's individual, which I believe everyone will have different issues, how can so many people try to advocate its how many calories you eat vs how many you are perceived to burn, and that the source of your calories is meaningless?0
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Then if it's individual, which I believe everyone will have different issues, how can so many people try to advocate its how many calories you eat vs how many you are perceived to burn, and that the source of your calories is meaningless?
who said that the source of calories is meaningless? I didn't see it in this thread?0 -
I didn't say in this thread, more the general consensus that for weight loss it's a standard equation and where the calories come from doesn't matter. But if foods have impacts on hormones that in turn impact metabolism then the source of calories does matter. But many people refuse this idea.0
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