If it's calories in/ calories out

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  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
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    All I'm trying to do is question the idea that its:

    1) Figure out standard BMR
    2) Add on exercise calories ( which is nowhere near a science in trying to work that one out, at best its a VERY rough guess)
    3) Eat less than this amount
    4) Lose weight

    Actually, if you did what you said, you can skip step 3.

    Because you are forgetting your total daily burn is more than just your BMR and exercise added together.

    Eating food burns calories. Your daily activity burns calories. There is a slight difference between BMR and RMR that burns an extra 100-200 calories.

    So if you did take best estimate of BMR and added back decently accurate exercise calories, you would still lose weight.

    Another problem you didn't include that some studies have shown is the Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis can be lowered if you eat too little, basically your body reserves enough calories for high priority stuff by slowing down other activity - fidgeting or more.
    So like you knock yourself out with a 600 calories workout, and because body is underfed, you sit as a bump on a log for 3 hrs that night compared to running around with the kids, where you would have burned say 600 calories too. Net daily burn increase - nothing.
  • wfte
    wfte Posts: 195 Member
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    So like you knock yourself out with a 600 calories workout, and because body is underfed, you sit as a bump on a log for 3 hrs that night compared to running around with the kids, where you would have burned say 600 calories too. Net daily burn increase - nothing.

    This I totally agree with. I know it's once again affecting one half of the equation but I'm not suggesting the equation is wrong. I'm suggesting it's made too simple. Often the body does compensate to some degree for exercise done, therefore making the calculations for your energy usage even harder to make.
  • CristinaL1983
    CristinaL1983 Posts: 1,119 Member
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    Thyroid problems can drop your BMR by several hundred calories per day

    Do you have a source for this? Not instigating, just curious.

    Thyroid hormones regulate your metabolic level. Low thyroid hormones= slower metabolism. Since BMR stands for base metabolic rate. BMR goes down with less thyroid hormones due to hypothyroidism. This is a well known fact.

    ^^ This. The exact amount that metabolism will be impacted varies with how severely thyroid is impacted.
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
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    Along similar lines - I have a thermostat in my room set to a constant temperature.

    Yet when I'm on a lower overall calorie intake I find I need to wear pyjamas rather than just boxers to stay warm.
    When I'm eating around TDEE I feel much less 'need' to have my cans of coke zero to keep me going.

    I would conclude that my metabolism does 'slow down' in such cases.

    Calories in vs calories out still works - it's just that calories out has reduced a bit.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    Thank you for explaining the impact on the calorie out side for thyroid issues. Would this also account for medication drugs that are known to cause problems?

    I wasn't trying to invalidate the equation. More open up the idea that maybe more is involved than the normal calorie in/calorie out outlook. Especially as this equation usually goes as far as calories in = what you eat, calories out = a normal bmr calculation + exercise.

    The one thing that should be taken into consideration are carbs - they often have an exacerbating effect on the downregulation of the energy out part of the equation and people often find more success limiting carbs (no low carb - just medium/lowish) and also upping fats.

    Carbs is one of the things I had in mind, with the impact on hormones. Wouldn't this also fly against the "traditional" idea of calories in\calories out (eat less than you "burn" ( I understand effectively you're affecting the out side of the equation but not in any way that can really be measured) or the equally popular a calorie is a calorie concept?

    No. As already mentioned, it impacts your calories out. I think you are over thinking this (not the thyroid issue, but the math).
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    I'm not trying to suggest it's not true. I'm trying to suggest that people very often try to make it a lot simpler than it actually is.

    As we've already suggested, there's many other factors that can affect your energy out, besides a normal daily routine plus exercise. Also the impact insulin plays on "fuel" allocation and storage, that can make the calorie in side a whole lot harder.

    All I'm trying to do is question the idea that its:

    1) Figure out standard BMR
    2) Add on exercise calories ( which is nowhere near a science in trying to work that one out, at best its a VERY rough guess)
    3) Eat less than this amount
    4) Lose weight

    There's often other factors, usually hormonal ones, that can affect sides of this equation. What we eat can affect these hormones and their impacts, therefore not making the equation quite so straight forward and certainly not making a calorie a calorie.

    All you are doing here is creating a circular equation.
  • elisa123gal
    elisa123gal Posts: 4,306 Member
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    It is individual..that is why all the opinions. If you're lucky..that will be the case...but for some of us..it is what we eat that matters just as much as the calories we eat each day.
  • wfte
    wfte Posts: 195 Member
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    Then if it's individual, which I believe everyone will have different issues, how can so many people try to advocate its how many calories you eat vs how many you are perceived to burn, and that the source of your calories is meaningless?
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
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    Then if it's individual, which I believe everyone will have different issues, how can so many people try to advocate its how many calories you eat vs how many you are perceived to burn, and that the source of your calories is meaningless?

    who said that the source of calories is meaningless? I didn't see it in this thread?
  • wfte
    wfte Posts: 195 Member
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    I didn't say in this thread, more the general consensus that for weight loss it's a standard equation and where the calories come from doesn't matter. But if foods have impacts on hormones that in turn impact metabolism then the source of calories does matter. But many people refuse this idea.
  • geebusuk
    geebusuk Posts: 3,348 Member
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    I'm sure what you eat can affect calories out - for instance, while 16:8 IF seems to work fine for me, I suspect if I ate a massive meal with loads of fat with all my calories mid afternoon and nothing else that I'd likely burn less - as I'd probably be tired more of the time for a start, my body working a bit slower.

    And some foods in some quantities may, one way or another, make you remove calories not yet burnt from your system - so the 'calories out' bit is again changed.
  • jonnythan
    jonnythan Posts: 10,161 Member
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    I didn't say in this thread, more the general consensus that for weight loss it's a standard equation and where the calories come from doesn't matter. But if foods have impacts on hormones that in turn impact metabolism then the source of calories does matter. But many people refuse this idea.

    Those impacts are not really significant within realistic limits unless you have an actual disease.

    Yes, things might not go smoothly if you get all your calories by drinking HFCS, but no one is going to do that.
  • chrisdavey
    chrisdavey Posts: 9,834 Member
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    I didn't say in this thread, more the general consensus that for weight loss it's a standard equation and where the calories come from doesn't matter. But if foods have impacts on hormones that in turn impact metabolism then the source of calories does matter. But many people refuse this idea.

    Those impacts are not really significant within realistic limits unless you have an actual disease.

    Yes, things might not go smoothly if you get all your calories by drinking HFCS, but no one is going to do that.

    agreed.

    Hence why macro targets to go with your cal targets works well.
  • irleshay
    irleshay Posts: 102 Member
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    Wfte, I have no hard scientific answers, but I do have hypothyroidism. To my knowledge, my medication doesn't add on extra calories. In fact, it's known for increasing energy and metabolism. Because of that I once increased my dosage on my own, which led to heart palpitations and trouble breathing. And a scolding from my doctor. So no, in my case it doesn't add on pounds. I do carry some extra weight. One doctor has said that's not due to my condition because the medication would have corrected it -- I'm not sure I agree that the medicine takes care of everything.

    In any case, using My Fitness Pal has helped me shed a few pounds in week 1 (combined with exercise, of course). I'm hoping to continue that trend and lose more. I believe people with hypothyroidism do need slightly lower calorie intakes, but with some exercise and diet management it should all work out. You might want to consult your endocrinologist (I'm assuming you have one, and the condition, if you're asking) and a nutritionist to get the best results.

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