Women: Something to Consider Regarding BF%

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  • Exill
    Exill Posts: 155 Member
    Fair enough. I'm sure you can find studies to dispute every point in the original post. That's completely fine. I didn't post this to fight or argue.

    Hey, no one's arguing. I just don't want women to think there's a downside to extended breastfeeding seeing as it gets enough negativity as it is.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
    I am personally more concerned about the bone density issue than the menstrual cycle issue anyways since i'm done having kids...

    I found some articles that said women athletes have lower bone density, but it seemed like most of these were based on cardio athletes. I'm curious about the difference between cardio athletes and weight lifting athletes.... Anyways, I found this article to be helpful, full of citations, and makes the point that women athletes tend to have lower estrogen which can contribute to bone density issues, and indicates that there is a THEORY (haha) that taking BC pills can help with that.

    http://www.stanford.edu/~kcobb/bfit/book/index.html
  • CaffeinatedGlitter
    CaffeinatedGlitter Posts: 201 Member
    Thanks, I want to aim for 22% so this was helpful information. I'll be careful not to get carried away
  • love4fitnesslove4food_wechange
    love4fitnesslove4food_wechange Posts: 6,897 Member
    I am personally more concerned about the bone density issue than the menstrual cycle issue anyways since i'm done having kids...

    I found some articles that said women athletes have lower bone density, but it seemed like most of these were based on cardio athletes. I'm curious about the difference between cardio athletes and weight lifting athletes.... Anyways, I found this article to be helpful, full of citations, and makes the point that women athletes tend to have lower estrogen which can contribute to bone density issues, and indicates that there is a THEORY (haha) that taking BC pills can help with that.

    http://www.stanford.edu/~kcobb/bfit/book/index.html

    To the extent that your estrogen levels were adversely affected by weight lifting then you'd probably see a similar effect.
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
    I agree about energy availability and ive researched that as well; however, given that this is a calorie counting website id assume that those here are restricting their calories to some extent (of course there are exceptions). I'd rather deal with the rule rather than the exception and provide the information for those consciously trying to reach potentially unhealthy levels of bodyfat via caloric restriction.

    A lot of people are restricting their calories to some extent... I am too - I'm restricting them to 2000.
    I think the reason CorvusCorax77 and I stepped in was to offer a bit of alternate perspective. Not to derail the thread, but to show that the world doesn't necessarily have to end if you drop below 20%.

    If you are at a low body fat, but are eating protein and getting your vitamins, you are in a much better position than if you are at a low body fat because you are starving yourself.

    When I read the original post, my first reaction was fear that I was all of a sudden unhealthy. I wasn't going to post that until a number of people started escalating as to the dangers of low body fat (which started to look like fearmongering).

    All I wanted to do was offer a bit of balance. :)

    This. And I also just wanted to point out that BF% can mean a lot of things. If these studies are all based on cardio bunnies, then I don't know that it even applies to my goals.
  • Judas_Queen
    Judas_Queen Posts: 251 Member
    bump :) very interesting thanks!
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    I agree about energy availability and ive researched that as well; however, given that this is a calorie counting website id assume that those here are restricting their calories to some extent (of course there are exceptions). I'd rather deal with the rule rather than the exception and provide the information for those consciously trying to reach potentially unhealthy levels of bodyfat via caloric restriction.

    one of the claims you made (or quoted from what you researched) in the opening post, if it was true, the human race would not have evolved. i.e. that extended breastfeeding suppressing ovulation puts women at risk of these problems

    I understand your concerns regarding everyone staying healthy, but I would like to see the actual journal articles and any case studies that this is based on, because there are a number of different factors that can contribute to low bone density, and you can't really put female athletes with very low body fat percentages, anorexic women and women who do full term breastfeeding in the same category, as whoever has presented this research originally has done. Maybe you're right about female athletes with very low body body fat percentages (and every bodybuilding source of information I've come across advise women and men to only get down to the extreme low levels of body fat percentage for contests, then they go back up to a more manageable level) - but breastfeeding is a totally different issue and in this case the reproductive system is not shut down (as it is in anorexia or premature menopause), it's in lactation mode, rather than pregnancy mode or time to get pregnant mode.

    Given that inaccuracy, I find it hard to trust the rest of the information.

    The breast feeding bit was addressing causes of low bone density/osteoporosis.

    it's not a cause of osteoporosis though.

    Women in hunter-gatherer tribes who spend their entire reproductive life either pregnant (about once every 5 years, sooner if the child dies) or breastfeeding (each child, on demand, until their milk teeth start to fall out) don't suffer from osteoporosis. Given that all our ancestors pre-dairy farming would have done the same ever since the first humans evolved and all the australopithecines before them would have done as well, the human race simply would not have evolved if breastfeeding caused osteoporosis. Insufficient calcium intake while breastfeeding does cause osteoporosis, and insufficient calcium intake causes osteoporosis for non-breastfeeding people too, the only difference is during breastfeeding you need to eat a fair bit more calcium, as the baby needs calcium in the milk because his or her bones are starting to ossify.

    Whoever made the claim in the article is confused... cessation of menstruation due to anorexia (or a famine, same difference from a physiology point of view) is a completely different physiological mechanism to suppression of ovulation while breastfeeding, and the latter does not cause osteoporosis.
  • JenJenER
    JenJenER Posts: 41 Member
    Bump - to read later :)
  • stines72
    stines72 Posts: 853 Member
    good thing i dont want children!
  • hookilau
    hookilau Posts: 3,134 Member
    With respect to the OP, I am sorry you are struggling so, and it does cause me to want to research further.

    I am not concerned with fertility (I'm done having kids), and my cycles are bang on 28 days (almost to the hour). For the first time in my life, they're manageable and don't keep me in bed for a week because I'm flowing so heavy I can't even go to work.

    But if there are other damages that could pose problematic, I'd like to know them.

    Yes, me too. This is where I'm at. I'm done having children & conceived both of my little rascals at less than 15% BF and before I was out of my 20's. I'm 5' tall and the first one I was 98#'s, the second around 115#.
  • DorkothyParker
    DorkothyParker Posts: 618 Member
    When I was very fit, I had my bodyfat measurements taken at the gym with calipers and was 20%. After this, I started on a weight lifting routine. When I went off my Mirena IUD 2 months later, I got pregnant within 10 days. I don't think 20% is too low at all. But then, I have no bust to speak of.
  • EmilyTwist1
    EmilyTwist1 Posts: 206 Member
    Interesting... in my health classes in high school they taught that 12% to 15% was ideal for women. At the time I was around 8% and had a regular cycle (don't know how fertile I was, though, as I've never been pregnant).
  • stines72
    stines72 Posts: 853 Member
    Interesting... in my health classes in high school they taught that 12% to 15% was ideal for women. At the time I was around 8% and had a regular cycle (don't know how fertile I was, though, as I've never been pregnant).
    8% holy crap i bet you looked ripped!
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member


    To the extent that your estrogen levels were adversely affected by weight lifting then you'd probably see a similar effect.

    Right. I went to try to find an article about this and found none. Most cite runners and ballet dancers. I figured I could find some info on weight training and women and bone density, but most of those studies involved women with higher body fat percentages or postmenopausal women. What I find interesting is that all the websites saying how great strength training is for women's bone density never specify that the studies they base the claims on were of women who never trained before, who had higher bf%'s, and who are over the age of 50.

    I see the need for a study!

    Who wants to write up a grant application with me?!?!?!
  • victoriannsays
    victoriannsays Posts: 568 Member
    I was always under the impression that weight lifting increased bone density. I see how the estrogen levels would effect this though. Interesting info!
  • cassiepv
    cassiepv Posts: 242 Member
    body-fat-percentage-women.jpg


    I last tested at 19.2% bf, but I don't look as good at the 20% bf lady in this pic. I might have loose skin or some other issue (like i'm too hard on myself)

    25% it is! I had not really thought about what my goal bf would be but looking at this I think 25% is the most attractive







    ^^^yep
  • CorvusCorax77
    CorvusCorax77 Posts: 2,536 Member
    I also didnt find any studies on estrogen and BF % in women that accounted for disordered eating. One study even said that a lot of the athletes may engage in this (they were including ballerinas in their study). These are the kind of things I would want to see before I get all worried that my goals are unhealthy.
  • rainbowbow
    rainbowbow Posts: 7,490 Member
    I'd be okay without bleeding for a while. :)
  • phreekles
    phreekles Posts: 216 Member
    I'm not sure how many people have heard of Peaches Geldof?? She's a very minor celebrity in the UK but within the last 2 years she has lost a significant amount of weight and just skin and bones and she has been pregnant twice in a row!

    Have a look at the pictures below:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2293466/Peaches-Geldof-takes-time--treats-beautifying-session.html
  • bcattoes
    bcattoes Posts: 17,299 Member


    To the extent that your estrogen levels were adversely affected by weight lifting then you'd probably see a similar effect.

    Right. I went to try to find an article about this and found none. Most cite runners and ballet dancers. I figured I could find some info on weight training and women and bone density, but most of those studies involved women with higher body fat percentages or postmenopausal women. What I find interesting is that all the websites saying how great strength training is for women's bone density never specify that the studies they base the claims on were of women who never trained before, who had higher bf%'s, and who are over the age of 50.

    I see the need for a study!

    Who wants to write up a grant application with me?!?!?!

    This paper has links to numerous studies on weight training and bone density on adult women of various ages.

    http://www.hawaii.edu/hivandaids/Effects of Weight Training on Bone Density of Women.pdf
  • EmilyTwist1
    EmilyTwist1 Posts: 206 Member
    Interesting... in my health classes in high school they taught that 12% to 15% was ideal for women. At the time I was around 8% and had a regular cycle (don't know how fertile I was, though, as I've never been pregnant).
    8% holy crap i bet you looked ripped!

    Lol! Not really. I've always had very little muscle.
  • hookilau
    hookilau Posts: 3,134 Member
    If I had to choose, miss chicky @ 30% is what I'd like to look like....but alas....dangerous curves are likely not in the cards for me :sad: I just don't have that body type. :ohwell:
  • HealthyBodySickMind
    HealthyBodySickMind Posts: 1,207 Member
    personally i take this with a grain of salt. As i said, my goal is 16% bf. How can I think 16% bf might be "ok" for me when a study shows it's not? Well, because 16% bf is not the same as 16% bf when one person is barely eating and the other one works out like a beast. This is what I mean:

    10-percent-body-fat-male-pictures1.jpg

    There are other factors to consider than just BF%. If I starve myself until I'm too fatigued to do anything and I am not getting proper nutrition, I wouldn't be surprised if there were negative health consequences.

    but I think a woman who eats well over 1800 calories a day and works out hard can achieve a perfectly healthy 16% bodyfat.

    womenbodyfat1.jpg

    And that's exactly what I intend to do. Weight lifting has shown to be GOOD for your bones:

    http://fitness.holplus.com/Exercise/Powerlifting/The-Hidden-Benefits-For-Women-To-Weight-Lift.html

    So if I eat 1800+ calories a day, I work out like a beast, my bf goes down to 16%, i'm getting proper nutrition, I think that's ok.

    ^^^This exactly. I was surprised when I started looking into body fat at how low mine was, and got worried and looked into the health risks associated with low body fat. However, I don't think most of them apply to me. I did lots of high impact things (good for bone density) both when I was growing and now, and have always eaten rather good homecooked food. I also don't bruise easily, which is related to bone density. I'm also very regular. I think as long as we are above essential fat, get our regular cycles, and eat well we are probably just fine.
  • kbauman09
    kbauman09 Posts: 40 Member
    It's definitely different from person to person. I'm 45, 5'7", 148 pounds, and and have 19.6% body fat (bod pod last week). I have recently lost 45 pounds and do a boot camp workout with heavy weights/cardio 3x a week and run the other days. I'm a size 6 or 8, but am a muscular build. I, personally, think I look like my body fat should be more, but I must carry more muscle than I think. I am also a believer that we mess our minds up with all of these numbers. I'm trying to be moderate with my exercise and diet and just be happy with the way I am today!
  • HypersonicFitNess
    HypersonicFitNess Posts: 1,219 Member
    Weeeellllll, I take this with a grain of salt. I am not real concerned about osteoporosis but then I do plenty of weight bearing exercise, get plenty of calcium (mostly through veggies and almond milk),

    AND, I am in my 40s and do not plan to have any more children, so I would be thrilled to have amoneria (of course I'm pre-menopausal anyway). My body fat is somewhere between 14.8 - 20 depending on how it's done. By calculation it's 20% by caliper its 14.8%.
  • Nefetete
    Nefetete Posts: 343 Member
    bump to read later
  • likitisplit
    likitisplit Posts: 9,420 Member
    body-fat-percentage-women.jpg

    Seriously? I'm at 32% and I look a lot more like the lady in the 40% picture. When I was under 20%, I didn't look like that one either - more like the 25% picture - and I exercised all the time.
  • stines72
    stines72 Posts: 853 Member
    different body types hold fat differently... so those visual guides arent representative of everyone obviously. i am SUPPOSEDLY at 11.4% body fat right now (caliper test 7 point). but i do not look like the first picture, i look more like the 2nd one (15-17).
  • lithezebra
    lithezebra Posts: 3,670 Member
    And if vanity is more important to you than health, body fat makes your face prettier, and lightens those dark circles under people's eyes.
  • pudadough
    pudadough Posts: 1,271 Member
    Thanks for the info. Although for me personally, I can't imagine ever getting to a point where LOW body fat was my issue. :grumble:

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