44yo needs to lose 22kg - how many cals do I eat?

SkimFlatWhite68 · February 2013

Well, I am not sure how I am feeling today.. I'm going to type this in my blog and then maybe post on the IPOARM thread for advice. Please don't think I am being negative - I am super positive about my new hobby (me) and determined to get to my goal by next summer - which gives me 9 months to do so (I'm Australian).

I may get shot down in flames, but I guess that is a chance that today I am willing to take. Here goes...

I weighed myself this morning and I've put on half a kilo. Hmmm... Ok, we had Chinese food last night, but we have Chinese food every Saturday night and that isn't going to change. This is a lifestyle change and I'm not going to say that I'll never have Chinese or Thai again for the rest of my life. I'm being realistic.

I'm here to get back on track and lose the FAT that I've gained in the last 5 years.

Last Sunday I weighed in at 82kg and this morning 82.5kg. My goal is 60kg. Ok, it's not the end of the world and it's only a week, but in the last 4 weeks I just feel like I have stalled. I feel like I am doing weights, eating more protein, drinking water and that I should be losing a kilo a week and seeing some changes in measurements.

In the last month I have lost a total of 2kg. Maybe that is ok, maybe I am stressing over nothing. I just don't want to start GAINING weight again when I am doing all this hard work.

Yes, I feel tighter. Yes, my clothes are getting looser, but I just feel like it's not happening fast enough. OMG - am I turning into one of "those" people... FFS. I'm just confused I guess. I suppose even if I lost a little bit today, I would have been ok, but to see a gain of half a kilo. Enter expletive here!!

So I have spent about 4 hours (no I am not joking I want to get this right) going over my food and exercise diary for the past 6 weeks, and calculated my calories in and out, averages and measurements and put them all into a spreadsheet to try to see what affects my weight loss.

I started eating MORE - as I was reading all the "Eat more to Weigh Less" forums, and I swear I have calculated my BMR and TDEE in just above every imaginable combination known to mankind. But maybe I've been eating too much? Last week I averaged 1716 food cals, the week before 1660 food cals. My diary is open so you can have a look.

Sure, I've had some wine. I had an icecream this week and as one MFP pointed out to me, some days my sodium is a bit high. But I'm generally eating well, lots of veggies and not a lot of starchy carbs, protein snacks, drinking water. I'm just not sure where I am going wrong. There is no way I was over TDEE this week, so it's NOT 0.5kg of fat and even though I am doing weights, I highly doubt from all my reading that I have put on muscle. My best bet is that I will maintain it as I get to goal or more likely lose less muscle than if I was pounding it out on the treadmill doing cardio 5 times a week and running my muscle away.

As far as the weights go, I am machine leg pressing 120kg, chest press 40kg, same for lat pulldown. Free weights- Deadlifts 30kg, Squats 15kg, Bench press 25kg, doing 3 sets between 8-15... When I get to 15 reps I know I have to up the weight. I can do 3 sets pushups now on my toes (really struggle the last set, but am improving).

I have re-read http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/654536-in-place-of-a-road-map-2-0-revised-7-2-12 In Place of a Roadmap. Doing all the calculations as recommended in the Fat2FitRadio tools, my BMR is 1401 and to reach my goal of a moderately active 60kg, I should be eating 2071 calories per day. [OMG, how many? It seems way too high].

I listen to the Fat2FitRadio podcasts every day on my way to work. I know I need to eat more than 1200 calories that MFP recommends. MFP says to eat 1200 (and eat back exercise calories) which would put me at about an average of TDEG 1500.

Recalculated all my numbers in HeyBales Spreadsheet http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/813720-spreadsheet-bmr-tdee-deficit-macro-calcs-hrm-zones. This tells me that my BMR is 1495, TDEE is 2218 and TDEG is 1637. [Last week I averaged 1716 cals, but I was still under TDEE.]

And of course, Scoobys calculator which I love because I don't have to convert kilos to pounds all the time. http://scoobysworkshop.com/calorie-calculator/ which gives me BMR 1534, TDEE 2378 and TDEG 1902. [That just freaks me out to eat that much every day, but I'll try it if I think it might work]

Read https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=160054937436250 - Leangains Logic of Weight Loss [love that guy]

Also read https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=160054937436250 and his Intermittent Fasting blog is very interesting and I read many of his posts (again).

And read http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/818082-exercise-calories-again-wtf - sorry Side Steel, I'm still having trouble!! and also read again http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/819055-setting-your-calorie-and-macro-targets, I really like her.

So you see my problem - all the above give estimates between 2071 and 1500 calories per day!! What's the right calculation? I personally prefer HeyBales, because that spreadsheet is really complicated and SURELY the maths has to be right... But, what about all the other calcs, and what about that extra 0.5kg...

I've read Tom Venutos The Body Fat Solution about a month ago. Perhaps I need to go and read it again, but I can't remember if he talks about how many calories to eat, I was more concentrating on his weight programme. Also got The New Rules of Weight Lifting for Women, again more for the exercises and programme. And read some of Strong Lifts, not the book, just off the net. And other sites recommended in threads on MFP - mainly about weight training because this is what I would rather focus on to retain my LBM, rather than Cardio.

But I have to get the FOOD right!!

Given all the above, I have decided to make my exercise Plan for this coming week as follows:

Monday - walk (this is 50 minutes weekdays, walking to train/work/train/home)

Tuesday - 40 minutes heavy full body weights + walk

Wednesday - 30 minutes hard cardio + walk

Thursday - 40 minutes medium full body weights + walk

Friday - walk

Saturday - 50 minutes heavy full body weights, plus some abs thrown in just because I like doing it.

Sunday - rest day

So my question is...

Given my current stats, and activity suggested above, how many calories should I be eating in a day to get rid of the excess 22kg that I'm carrying around on my body?

I am a full time working mother, 44 years young, 166cm tall and currently weigh 82kg

According to Fat2Fit I have 42% body fat, or HeyBales spreadsheet average 36.46%

My goal is 60kg and somewhere around 20-22% body fat.

Any help would be appreciated and yes, it might seem like I'm being a little bit obsessive about this, but this year I am my own personal hobby and I want to get it right as soon as I can so I am on the right PATH, rather than following the wrong path and be writing this post in 4 months time and still fat.

All comments and help to get me on track would be welcome. Thanks.

heybales · February 2013

Don't even think about weight based goals along with time. You'll stress out enough about it to guarantee failure. Besides weight loss is rarely linear unless you are losing muscle mass, then it sucks at the end.

So couple things to explain the differences first. BMR is of course foundation, so if that's different, any multiplier is going to make the difference at TDEE bigger, and TDEG too.

fat2fit uses Harris BMR - most inflated when overweight.
Scooby simple calc uses Mifflin BMR, about 5% more accurate than Harris BMR.
Scooby Most Accurate calc, and spreadsheet, can use Katch BMR if BF% is given, most accurate if not actually underestimated when overweight.

The fact you say the fat2fit BMR is smaller than Scooby makes me think you read fat2fit Katch BMR based on higher BF%, Scooby based on Mifflin, spreadsheet on Katch.

So that explains the starting difference.
So even picking the same TDEE level from he 5 levels on Scooby or fat2fit will given different results.
Spreadsheet of course asks for more detail on time and activity levels.

20% deficit on Scooby or applied to fat2fit of course leads to different results.
Spreadsheet does deficit based on amount to lose, and how much lifting you are doing compared to heavy cardio.

Now, I can tell you selected Moderately Active on Scooby.
But you used fat2fit wrong on IPOARM method, you entered goal weight as goal weight, not current weight. Or else your values there would have been different. If that BMR given is the Katch, you used different BF%, but then again, their table for eating does NOT use the more accurate Katch, but least accurate Harris BMR.

So forget fat2fit for now. If you like that idea of eating for goal, look at the spreadsheet at Eating For Future You on the right bottom, and you'll see the deficit is likely not as great.

Anyway, 2 places for a problem since the spreadsheet was lowest goal.
Activity calculator honest?
That was also improved near end of January to better reflect the calorie burn for those levels based on walking speed, light and moderate went down, high went up.
Lifting went up.
Might rerun the numbers, might not be eating enough.

Then again, may hold about the same, so second problem.
Are you weighing and logging everything?
Serving size amounts are usually very off. You weigh a cup serving size and discover the calorie count which is actually by weight (grams usually) is actually 1.25 to 1.5 servings. That could be 75-100 calories. Do that a several times a day, you could have mostly eaten back your deficit. Depends on what you eat.
I'm sure the eating out part is very difficult to estimate, but doing some weighing of other meals during the week may let you get a sense of just how good or bad your estimating of Chinese or Tai is.

If measurements are falling, you know fat is being burned. And even if you are using all the spots in the spreadsheet BF calculator and seeing little movement, there may be other spots losing more.
Can't spot reduce, can't spot measure.

When does weight loss follow along with fat loss?

When the body is done making improvements from the exercise load being put on it. Those improvements are usually never weight loss, but LBM gain, and if starting out, sure some muscle. Maybe expect a 1/2 kg of muscle every 6 wks there, but LBM can gain more. Glucose stores with water, blood volume, other stuff. All that is increased metabolism actually.

So if your intake estimate is off and you are eating closer to TDEE, then indeed with the lifting you are making great body improvements because you are feeding it enough to do so. That does indeed lead to fat loss and easier LBM gains.

Other problem could be if you had a very suppressed metabolism prior to this change, your body may not want to see that much deficit at first, or it's isn't going to balance high enough for there to be much if any actual deficit any place. Just as many that plateau at 1200, they go to 1400, body balances there, no change, to 1600, same thing, must go almost to or at TDEE for awhile for body to no longer feel threatened and allow creating a deficit. So think about that if you've been at a stall for a while.

Also, that avg BF%. How wide was the spread between estimates? If more than 5%, one is usually more accurate than the other. Which even side moves least is usually the more accurate side. That may at the start make your Katch BMR larger than reality, but it just means it encourages fat loss, and measurements change, become more accurate, and that BMR usually goes down.
In reality you didn't lose LBM and gain fat, the estimates just became more correct. So you will find yourself eating less as a month goes by and measurements lowered.

For the activity listed, I show 6.83 hrs of exercise.

Katch BMR - 1495 based on 36.5% BF
Activity weekly - 250 min walking up to 3 mph, 30 min heavy cardio, 130 min lifting, BMR multiplier of 1.42
TDEE - 2122
Deficit - 27.8% for 589 calories for 0.5 kg weekly loss, based on 22 kgs left and only 19% heavy cardio to lifting amount
TDEG - 1533
macros - carb 45%, prot 30%, fat 25%

Now, if that walking is between 3-4 mph, than actually 1586 TDEG - see, really not that big of a difference, so don't worry about it now. Later yes.

So indeed, about 100 less.

So that's my suggestions:

Weigh everything for a week to see how far off the products you use are and your real eating amount to serving size.
Also to see how good your estimates are in general up to this point.
This will give indication to the nights eating out, and what has been happening the last few weeks. Also may allow better estimating of those nights.

Accept the fact that good exercise with enough food will cause body improvements that includes LBM gain, even while fat is being lost. So weight may stay the same or increase.
You also may not be measuring where that fat is lost.

The BF% which is foundation for the math may be actually lower than reality, but as fat drops that accuracy will increase and may go up, which means BMR, TDEE, and TDEG goes down.

TDEG 1533 or 1583 depending on speed of your walk. (I didn't think of putting kph in there, huh).

Depend on measurements more than scale weight, and drop time based weight loss goals. Stress won't help matters.

SkimFlatWhite68 · February 2013

Thank you HeyBales.

I see what you mean about the BMR business and all the different formulas. I downloaded your spreadsheet early in January, so I will go back and download it again and start from scratch, but appreciate that you did it for me. I had my activity higher than that using your "standing on feet, moving" section etc.. I think I'm being as honest as I can be with it - because I really WANT to do this right from the start (hence my long post).

As for the body fat:
39.26 U.S. Navy Circumference Method
33.66 Covert Bailey "Fit or Fat" book method
36.46 Avgerage body fat % of the two
That is copied out of your spreadsheet... From this mornings figures.

A month ago it was as follows (in the progress tab):
Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG
38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698

So according to spreadsheet things are improving. And as I said, I do feel tighter and I'm lifting more weight, so getting stronger.

I have been measuring food. I was so shocked when I first did it that I measure every day. Put my yoghurt container on the scale and take out 100g, stuff like that. I measure everything that I possibly can and am constantly amazed by an average piece of fruit for example. I am pretty sure that my calories in are as accurate as they can be, and if I'm not sure I tend to OVER estimate.

I train pretty hard at my weights. Cardio not so much, and I don't plan on concentrating on intense cardio either, I'll throw a 9km jog into my walk every few minutes but that's about it. My trainer says I go really hard, and I do. For all my fat, she was initially surprised at the weight I can lift. My walk is to and from train/work and I don't know the pace, but I'm certainly not dawdling. I put it in MFP at the low rate, but I'm not really sure. I tend to regard it as incidental activity but if I wasn't doing it I'm sure it would make a difference.

Stress you say? Ah yes - tick that box. I had a Major personal stress on Thursday/Friday this week, not weight related and not sleeping well as a result. I guess that could be factoring in too.

I will download the spreadsheet again and crunch the numbers to make sure I put it all in the right places but your suggestion of 1533-1583 sounds good.

I truly appreciate the time and effort that you put into your response and am just so grateful to have found this site and the roadmap/spreadsheet threads. I know I will get there in the end, and I hear your words... "and drop time based weight loss goals". I need to be patient.

Thank you.

heybales · February 2013

As for the body fat:
39.26 U.S. Navy Circumference Method
33.66 Covert Bailey "Fit or Fat" book method
36.46 Avgerage body fat % of the two
That is copied out of your spreadsheet... From this mornings figures.

A month ago it was as follows (in the progress tab):
Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG
38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698

So according to spreadsheet things are improving. And as I said, I do feel tighter and I'm lifting more weight, so getting stronger.

Well, if 40 hr deskjob, unless your office work has you standing walking as part of the job, I wouldn't stress about incidental stuff at work. If teacher in front of class all day, ok, sure, that counts. Chasing after little rug-rats, on yeah. 15-30 min walk at lunch time, oh sure under exercise correct walking level.

So with that BF% change, both dropped the same amount, so hard to guess which side is more correct, but in one month the spread came down a bit, so may be right in the middle actually.

Sounds very realistic of you then, and most as they see the firmer body, and people comment you must have lost a lot of weight, you can just surprise them with "no, not much" and watch their confusion, while you know it was a lot of fat.
Just watch those FM numbers drops, and think how much space a lb of fat takes up, or a kg rather.

SkimFlatWhite68 · February 2013

I am so NOT a teacher (sending my everlasting thanks, and how on earth do you do it, to all teachers everywhere)... Yes work in an office managerial position and sit at desk most of the day. Eat lunch at desk, pretty much stay in my office the entire day tapping away at my computer until I leave. Have majority meetings at office, rarely go out. Sounds horrible when I put it like that, but I really like my job.

Ok, well thanks again. I'll keep updating the spreadsheet every week and watch the numbers there and in the meantime, slowly but surely whittle away the kilos and punds of fat. Pounds actually sounds better - the number is higher.

One day, I will turn heads once more.

Sarauk2sf · February 2013

My response will be a bit shorter then heybales as he has gone into a lot of the detail re the calculators, but here is my 2c:

- 1kg a week is a little aggressive based on what you have to lose – I would suggest a 0.5kg a week target so the last month has been at a reasonable pace

- Don’t stress over small weekly increases – weight can be significantly impacted by water weight which can be due to your macro mix, sodium, lifting routine, monthly cycle among others. My weight can fluctuate a good few pounds from day to day – it’s the longer term trend that is important

- It looks as though your TDEE is relatively predictable in that you are losing weight more or less in line with what the calculators are putting you at – remember, everything is an estimate – your activity levels, your BMR, your food intake no matter how hard you try to be accurate and that, together with ‘real’ weight loss sometimes being masked by water weight fluctuations means that actual results are not always as predicted. You need to look at your own results over time and tweak accordingly.

- All of the resources you mentioned are also estimates – I would try not to get too distracted by the intake suggestions that you come across in all the books – to be honest, what you are doing now seems to be working for you so I see no reason to change anything just yet...with one caveat…how does your suggested workout routine compare to what you have been doing before? This will change your TDEE if different than before and you may want to tweak your intake because of it.

- Your schedule looks very good re lifting v cardio/walking.

Most of all - be patient (easier said than done I know) and look at the longer term trends. Tweak your intake if those trends are not as predicted.

EvgeniZyntx · February 2013

You are getting good advice from two great people so the only thing I have to add is about the mental: enjoy yourself - make sure the activity you chose is mentally recharging you or consider other activities. Have fun, you are moving in the right direction.

SkimFlatWhite68 · February 2013

Thank you Sara, good advice.

I only joined the gym in January, before that all I was doing was the walking. I hadn't been to the gym in 5 years (and 20 kilos ago). So the weights are "new" again.

I absolutely love going to the gym. I love doing the weights, it makes me feel great, and the occasional Spin class is exhausting but fun. I really do enjoy going, it's not a chore for me. I only gave it up because i had a nasty (unrelated) accident and then it was hard to re-join for money reasons, but this year have worked it into my budget because I realised that I am important too. I want to live a long and healthy life.

Food wise... Last year I started a diet every day, and would bounce between 700 calories a weekday and then binge i dont know how many calories on the weekend because i was SO hungry! I had NO idea what I was doing, didn't know about BMR or TDEE or any of that. I realise now that I was doing terrible things to my poor body, and continued to put ON weight! I ended 2012 5kg heavier than 2011.

I have got the food under control now, which I guess is why I am a bit obsessed over the calories. I don't want to eat too little or too much either.

This week I will drop one cardio session, as per my above plan and try the average of 1550 calories as suggested by HeyBales. Probably do this plan for 2 weeks and review. I know if I need more, I can eat a bit more, and will just keep it to TDEE -20% if needed. You are absolutely right, there is no shame in 2kg a month, and if it is FAT then I'm doing it right.

Your terrific advice is greatly appreciated. I feel much better now just doing what I'm doing! Thank you.

SkimFlatWhite68 · February 2013

Thanks Chris1816 for your refreshing email advice

I actually laughed out loud and every time I think of it, I smile.

And also ANewLucia, I appreciate your feedback.

I've had a good week this week. Just keeping doing what I'm doing and not obsessing over the numbers.

JFDI as they say!!

SkimFlatWhite68 · February 2013

Thanks again for the inbox messages I have received.

I followed 1550 for 3 days and then upped calories to aim for 1800. Weighed in today 2kg lighter and am really starting to FEEL a difference. I guess I needed to RELAX a bit about it and look more at my long term goals than instant gratification (which I then got).

I'm on track this week with LESS exercise and more food and I am feeling very positive. Thank you all again so much.

SkimFlatWhite68 · March 2013

Bumping my own thread for an update.

Lost 2kg and then put it back on. My diary is open. I had an injury last week and had 5 days off the gym, but was still walking. It was 8 weeks into my programme and some say I should have had a rest week from weights anyway.

Food has been pretty good, sure a couple of bumps but in general I have been sticking around 1700-1750 average and I am putting ON weight. I'm still in a deficit, my TDEE is between 2000-2500 I don't know why, this is really frustrating. I'm not sure if this is a metabolism re-set and that is why I'm gaining weight - but then does that explain the initial loss when I went up in calories? Seems weird.

Measurements all still the same, clothes the same. Yes, I feel better than I did 8 weeks ago.

I KNOW that some people will say 2 weeks isn't a plateau. Stick with it. And yes, I am sticking with it.

Decided last night to go back to 1600 for a week, closer to HeyBales suggestion, see what happens there, I don't want to eat less and less, but I feel like every day I am doing all the right things and not seeing any result for it.

SkimFlatWhite68 · March 2013

Progress Update using HeyBales spreadsheet

Date stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG
1-Jan-13 86 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629
11-Jan-13 82 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698
10-Feb-13 82 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637
13-Mar-13 80 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514

This is pretty slow going... But I am getting there. Weight has been going back up and down between 82-80kg but I'm trying not to fixate on the scale.

FM is decreasing and LBM is down ever so slightly, so I am continuing with my weights to keep that LBM steady.

HIIT had to take a back seat the last couple of weeks due to injury, but I am still walking and averaging 10,000 steps a day.

Have adjusted my caloric intake to 1500 today.

I had been convinced to take it up to 1800 (which is when I was putting on weight and measurements didn't change), reduced it to 1600 last week and boom! saw change today in the tape measure. So I've done the numbers again and read more... and will do the next week at around 1500-1530ish (average) and see how it goes.

Goal weight:60kg - goal size 10 (Aussie)

Any comments appreciated.

EvgeniZyntx · March 2013

Changing things every three days is too quick I'd suggest that you hold at a specific cal goal for three weeks and average losses over the period. Weight loss is not linear.

Ps - congrats on the bf% change - that's pretty good. Consider strong resistance training to limit LBM loss further.

SkimFlatWhite68 · March 2013

Thank you. I am lifting the heaviest I can, had a couple of injuries the last few weeks, but am pressing 140kg on legs, lifting up to 40kg and I'm pretty pleased with that. I love weight training and I have every intention of keeping it up 3 times a week for as long as I can

I was going to drop to 1500 last week, but seeing I had such (mental) difficulty putting the calories UP - I was reticent to drop them again. But I hear what you are saying and yes - fat loss is definitely NOT linear that is for sure!!

heybales · March 2013

Progress Update using HeyBales spreadsheet

Date stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG
1-Jan-13 86 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629
11-Jan-13 82 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698
10-Feb-13 82 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637
13-Mar-13 80 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514

This is pretty slow going... But I am getting there. Weight has been going back up and down between 82-80kg but I'm trying not to fixate on the scale.

FM is decreasing and LBM is down ever so slightly, so I am continuing with my weights to keep that LBM steady.

HIIT had to take a back seat the last couple of weeks due to injury, but I am still walking and averaging 10,000 steps a day.

Have adjusted my caloric intake to 1500 today.

I had been convinced to take it up to 1800 (which is when I was putting on weight and measurements didn't change), reduced it to 1600 last week and boom! saw change today in the tape measure. So I've done the numbers again and read more... and will do the next week at around 1500-1530ish (average) and see how it goes.

Goal weight:60kg - goal size 10 (Aussie)

Any comments appreciated.

That's wild, in the quoted view above, right now anyway, that table is laid out correctly. Huh. Oh well.

Great work on holding to it.

I'll say those 2 different BF calcs still aren't within 5% of each other, so those changes are also for reasons of getting more accurate. So don't be concerned if the avg seems to pop up on BF%, same as don't worry if it seems to drop on LBM.

The totals though, even if you look at the potential 5% spread, is great no matter what. Great work.

Keep at that lifting - sorry to hear about injury, but I'll bet not doing the HIIT, or attempting to do whatever type of interval work it really ended up being, has actually been beneficial.
Even if you do have to eat less.

alicesheard · March 2013

I'm looking for some advice on my diet, I've been doing stronglifts since January and have plateu'd at 126lbs, I'm 5ft7 and still have some weight to lose. I would say that I have the "skinny fat" appearance as I have some weight to lose around my stomach area! I have been trying to follow the leangains diet where I eat between 12-8 however I train in the morning til 7.30am and so I was wondering if this was effecting me as I'm not eating pre workout and not directly after workout! Also on leangains I find i have just been eating at 12 (small sweet potato, tuna and an apple) and then again at dinner (protein and veg) and then ill have a protein shake and perhaps some fruit again around 7.30 in the evening! Is this too little? This tends to be around 1000-1200 calories! I do stronglifts and then follow it with 20-30minutes of cardio usually cross trainer or running and once a week I do HIIT for 30 minutes! I was just hoping some of you guys could give me some advice on where I'm going wrong!! Thanks

heybales · March 2013

I'm looking for some advice on my diet, I've been doing stronglifts since January and have plateu'd at 126lbs, I'm 5ft7 and still have some weight to lose. I would say that I have the "skinny fat" appearance as I have some weight to lose around my stomach area! I have been trying to follow the leangains diet where I eat between 12-8 however I train in the morning til 7.30am and so I was wondering if this was effecting me as I'm not eating pre workout and not directly after workout! Also on leangains I find i have just been eating at 12 (small sweet potato, tuna and an apple) and then again at dinner (protein and veg) and then ill have a protein shake and perhaps some fruit again around 7.30 in the evening! Is this too little? This tends to be around 1000-1200 calories! I do stronglifts and then follow it with 20-30minutes of cardio usually cross trainer or running and once a week I do HIIT for 30 minutes! I was just hoping some of you guys could give me some advice on where I'm going wrong!! Thanks

First, the simple question and suggestion.
Where in your schedule is the HIIT done such that it is not ruining a lifting repair the day after, or making you tired for the lifting the day before, using the same muscles as lifting? Because true HIIT, done right, is like lifting for a cardio specific sport.

Second, lifting fasted is not that bad if your last meal night before was before bed. Or at least, nothing active after last meal before bed to burn off glucose stores you'll need next morning.
But to then go so long without giving the body something to work with, you are cheating yourself of some performance gains.

Perhaps you can adjust the window for eating to right after the workout. Then fast until the morning, slight snack before the workout then. But again, no big activity after last meal and bed time.

Third, with eating that level, your diet and exercise is nothing but stress on your body. You actually probably aren't giving your body the energy it would use if sleeping all day (BMR) let alone enough to actually make improvements from exercise.

You need to eat more than bare minimum that is purely for safety measure for sedentary women.
But that's like minimum building codes, for safety reasons. Not for aesthetics, performance, or longevity.
You want to look better, perform better, live longer?

I'd guess yes since exercising, so feed it to actually benefit from it. Or else forget it.

Use this.

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/813720-spreadsheet-bmr-tdee-deficit-macro-calcs-hrm-zones

alicesheard · March 2013

Hey Heybales, thanks for the reply

i do my stronglifts on mondays,wednesdays and fridays, and then do my HIIT on a saturday. i don't do much in the evenings after my last meal and definitely nothing strenuous so i think my final meal will probably be sufficient for the morning session. i may start playing around with the window or would you recommend removing it completely and eating regularly throughout the day? thanks for the link i'm just starting to put in all my information at the moment and looking forward to seeing some progress just got to get over the mind block of the additional calories i suppose! well what i'm doing at the minute isnt working so i guess this is a good way to go! makes sense to feed my body to get more out of it thanks again

heybales · March 2013

Hey Heybales, thanks for the reply
i do my stronglifts on mondays,wednesdays and fridays, and then do my HIIT on a saturday. i don't do much in the evenings after my last meal and definitely nothing strenuous so i think my final meal will probably be sufficient for the morning session. i may start playing around with the window or would you recommend removing it completely and eating regularly throughout the day? thanks for the link i'm just starting to put in all my information at the moment and looking forward to seeing some progress just got to get over the mind block of the additional calories i suppose! well what i'm doing at the minute isnt working so i guess this is a good way to go! makes sense to feed my body to get more out of it thanks again

So if you feel any soreness on Saturday, and even then you need not feel sore to actually be repairing, because that takes 24 - 36 hrs. So I guess if HIIT is done late in day may not be too bad.

But I'm guessing purpose for doing it was because you read it's great for burning fat. It is, because it's like lifting, for cardio focused folks that don't lift.
You'd probably get a better repair on Sat if you weren't so intense using the same muscles you lifted with. Walk or slow jog if you can handle it is perfectly fine to encourage blood flow and repair.

I guess a 16 hr window for fast would be just prior to lifting then. And 8 hr feed would be right afterwards, so big breakfast, lunch and big snack. No dinner. Ugh.

alicesheard · March 2013

Yeah...no dinner...don't know if I can actually do that haha! Im going to have a chat with my pt on Saturday and see what he suggests I may try going back to eating 6x a day (little and often) as when I was last doing it I was only doing cardio so it may work for me if I'm weight training! Thanks

SkimFlatWhite68 · March 2013

It's all about finding the right balance.

In the last 2 weeks I've seen a huge improvement by:

.. Keeping my calories to about 1550 per day, eating lean protein, non starchy vegetables, berries and citrus fruit, good fats, drinking water. I am eating really well, never hungry.
.. Reducing cardio to 2 x HIIT sessions per week, 20 minutes each.
.. 3 weights sessions
.. Walking

I think my original TDEE calculation was a bit high. The Spreadsheet was right all along.

I'm now down to 78kg on the scale, and continuing to see a good loss on the tape measure, clothes not fitting anymore and feel really good.

I don't think I could do without dinner if I was hungry, but that is all about the QUALITY of the food. Some days I really don't feel like eating all my calories because my choices have been good, and I'm full. Its hard to eat a lot of calories when my stomach is full of chicken, broccoli and brussell sprouts! If that happens I'll mix up some Greek yoghurt and cottage cheese before bed and eat that just so I have had enough calories.

Most of my workouts are at 5am and I don't eat beforehand, and that is fine for me. Alice if you are felling tired, perhaps have a snack or a pre-workout shake before your workout? I know that my best workouts are Saturday afternoons and I'm assuming that's because I've had breakfast and lunch already that day.

SkimFlatWhite68 · April 2013

Progress Update using HeyBales spreadsheet:

Date of stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG
26-Sep-12 89 166 40.36 44.70 36.02 53.1 35.9 1,517 1,958 1,517
26-Dec-12 86 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629
11-Jan-13 82 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698
10-Feb-13 82 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637
13-Mar-13 80 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514
13-Apr-13 77 166 32.66 35.00 30.31 51.9 25.1 1,490 2,292 1,732

Continuing to lose weight, loss of LBM but I am doing weights 3 x per week, lifting as heavy as I can and training hard, not doing much cardio so I dont know what I can do about that.

Progressing. I think that is good, and it might be slower than I'd like, but I eat well, am rarely hungry and feel terrific.

heybales · April 2013

Progress Update using HeyBales spreadsheet:

Date of stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG
26-Sep-12 89 166 40.36 44.70 36.02 53.1 35.9 1,517 1,958 1,517
26-Dec-12 86 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629
11-Jan-13 82 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698
10-Feb-13 82 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637
13-Mar-13 80 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514
13-Apr-13 77 166 32.66 35.00 30.31 51.9 25.1 1,490 2,292 1,732

Continuing to lose weight, loss of LBM but I am doing weights 3 x per week, lifting as heavy as I can and training hard, not doing much cardio so I dont know what I can do about that.

Progressing. I think that is good, and it might be slower than I'd like, but I eat well, am rarely hungry and feel terrific.

Remember, LBM includes muscle, not only muscle mass. Everything else too.

Doing less cardio, so your body has less reason to store glucose now, so less water weight.
Need less blood flow, probably lower blood volume.

And accuracy on the calculator is probably still improving. I notice now a 5% spread between calcs, prior it was more. So it's also been a matter of becoming more accurate on FM & LBM, so it was never that high to start with.

But great results too, holding to your goals. Did you see announcement new spreadsheet Progress Tab improvement, short area on right to add up your actually eaten calories to see what your avg was between measurement times. See how well you held to goal on avg.
You may already do that too.

SkimFlatWhite68 · April 2013

Thanks HeyBales, I read your other post in another thread about HIIT, and then came back here to go over your suggestions and re-read your reply to Alice above. Would certainly explain why on some days my legs are not as strong, because they're getting double dose on the bike doing HIIT. So I'm going to have to re-think the HIIT, or maybe do it in place of one of my weights sessions.

My goal is still to lose another 15kg of fat, and end up with a firm body, not lose weight and end up with just a smaller version of the body I've got now. Which is why I think it's important to keep up the weights. Do I even need to do intense cardio at all? I still walk to train/work 5 days a week, which is 5 hours a week. Plus 3 weights sessions.

Still tweaking

heybales · April 2013

Thanks HeyBales, I read your other post in another thread about HIIT, and then came back here to go over your suggestions and re-read your reply to Alice above. Would certainly explain why on some days my legs are not as strong, because they're getting double dose on the bike doing HIIT. So I'm going to have to re-think the HIIT, or maybe do it in place of one of my weights sessions.

My goal is still to lose another 15kg of fat, and end up with a firm body, not lose weight and end up with just a smaller version of the body I've got now. Which is why I think it's important to keep up the weights. Do I even need to do intense cardio at all? I still walk to train/work 5 days a week, which is 5 hours a week. Plus 3 weights sessions.

Still tweaking

If you are lifting, skip the HIIT unless training for something specific and you need support from those muscles specifically.
Otherwise you are just making the lifting not as effective, and not really getting the most out of the HIIT either.

Don't need intense cardio, your walking is great for recovery already.

SkimFlatWhite68 · May 2013

New update as per HeyBales spreadsheet

Date of stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG Avg eaten daily
26-Sep-12 89 166 40.36 44.70 36.02 53.1 35.9 1,517 1,958 1,517 2300
26-Dec-12 86 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629 1655
11-Jan-13 82 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698 1593
10-Feb-13 82 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637 1734
13-Mar-13 80 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514 1550
13-Apr-13 77 166 32.66 35.00 30.31 51.9 25.1 1,490 2,292 1,732 1590
10-May-13 73.8 166. 31.33 33.13 29.53 50.7 23.1 1,465 2,233 1,692 1,637.

Cut back on the HIIT. Still doing weights, added Yoga once a week (first day today).

learnerdriver · May 2013

wow! congratulations thanks for your thread- I'm about the same height and age.

heybales · May 2013

Excellent, 13 lbs fat or 9% lost, only 2 lbs LBM, which you'll lose some anyway. But that likely means no muscle mass loss.

Great work sticking to it.

SkimFlatWhite68 · May 2013

Update

Date of stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG Avg eaten daily
26-Sep-12 89.0 166 40.36 44.70 36.02 53.1 35.9 1,517 1,958 1,517 2300
26-Dec-12 86.0 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629 1655
11-Jan-13 82.0 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698 1593
10-Feb-13 82.0 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637 1734
13-Mar-13 80.0 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514 1550
13-Apr-13 77.0 166 32.66 35.00 30.31 51.9 25.1 1,490 2,292 1,732 1590
10-May-13 73.8 166 31.33 33.13 29.53 50.7 23.1 1,465 2,233 1,692 1,637.
24-May-13 73.5 166 30.46 32.18 28.74 51.1 22.4 1,474 2,268 1,724 1,600.

TDEG has gone up. hmmm...
Not sure why this is - measurements have decreased in the last fortnight even though weight is still about 73.5kg (73.3 today). Could it due to be apparent slight increase in LBM and decrease in FM? If so, that's good news.
I have been eating average of 1600 over the last 2-3 weeks, bit less last week.

Was planning for TDEG of 1500 this week but maybe I need to increase that number...

Any thoughts?

heybales · May 2013

Update

Date of stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG Avg eaten daily
26-Sep-12 89.0 166 40.36 44.70 36.02 53.1 35.9 1,517 1,958 1,517 2300
26-Dec-12 86.0 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629 1655
11-Jan-13 82.0 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698 1593
10-Feb-13 82.0 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637 1734
13-Mar-13 80.0 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514 1550
13-Apr-13 77.0 166 32.66 35.00 30.31 51.9 25.1 1,490 2,292 1,732 1590
10-May-13 73.8 166 31.33 33.13 29.53 50.7 23.1 1,465 2,233 1,692 1,637.
24-May-13 73.5 166 30.46 32.18 28.74 51.1 22.4 1,474 2,268 1,724 1,600.

TDEG has gone up. hmmm...
Not sure why this is - measurements have decreased in the last fortnight even though weight is still about 73.5kg (73.3 today). Could it due to be apparent slight increase in LBM and decrease in FM? If so, that's good news.
I have been eating average of 1600 over the last 2-3 weeks, bit less last week.

Was planning for TDEG of 1500 this week but maybe I need to increase that number...

Any thoughts?

Looks like your LBM has gone up. Even if that is only stored water, that increases metabolism, so BMR is up, TDEE is up, and with less to lose, less deficit, so TDEG is up for 2 reasons.

Great work.

Looks like you get to eat more. Perhaps that will unstress the body more and you can drop more.

SkimFlatWhite68 · July 2013

I'm still in it to win it!!
Today, my BMI has finally hit the "normal" range. I'm looking good and feeling great.

Blog is here: http://www.myfitnesspal.com/blog/SkimFlatWhite68/view/progress-pics-23kg-down-553291 - with progress photos taken yesterday if anyone is interested.

Update of Stats as per HeyBales spreadsheet as follows:

Date of stats Weight Height Avg BF% Navy % Covert % LBM FM BMR TDEE TDEG Avg eaten daily
26-Sep-12 89.0 166 40.36 44.70 36.02 53.1 35.9 1,517 1,958 1,517 2300
26-Dec-12 86.0 166 38.84 42.24 35.43 52.6 33.4 1,506 2,234 1,629 1655
11-Jan-13 82.0 166 38.34 42.24 34.45 50.6 31.4 1,462 2,271 1,698 1593
10-Feb-13 82.0 166 36.46 39.26 33.66 52.1 29.9 1,495 2,218 1,637 1734
13-Mar-13 80.0 166 34.58 37.27 31.89 52.3 27.7 1,500 2,131 1,514 1550
13-Apr-13 77.0 166 32.66 35.00 30.31 51.9 25.1 1,490 2,292 1,732 1590
10-May-13 73.8 166 31.33 33.13 29.53 50.7 23.1 1,465 2,233 1,692 1,637.
15-Jun-13 70.7 166. 29.73 30.72 28.74 49.7 21.0 1,443 2,220 1,703 1,426.
14-Jul-13 68.7 166. 27.24 27.71 26.77 50.0 18.7 1,450 2,230 1,730 1,574.

44yo needs to lose 22kg - how many cals do I eat?

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