Which came first, the cut or the bulk?

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nikilis
nikilis Posts: 2,305 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
Ok so, I'm just wondering what people with a bit of knowledge would advise for my situation.

I'm 184cm, 73.5kg, bmi 22 ish and body fat % of 16-17%

I was originally 86kg before I started on MFP and I'm currently eating 1700cals at a defect of 300ish on my tdee, I regularly exercise and eat back the calories.

Soooo. What I want to know is, would it be better at this stage to go on a cut to drop the fat percentage and then gain muscle after that, or....

Perhaps increase to maintenance, eating 1 g of protein to the lb and try to build as much muscle as possible and then cut.

I'm not trying to try super ripped, just want to add a bit more muscle and drop the body fat percentage.

Thoughts?


EDIT: any thoughts about gaining muscle on a deficit?
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Replies

  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
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    Are you comfortable with your bodyfat as it is? I would say try to get it as low as you're comfortable with to give yourself more of a buffer for if you **** up your bulk.

    It's a complete judgement call. If it were me, with those stats, I'd go down to about 10-12% and then bulk.

    Is strength a concern? Is it progressing at the moment?
  • ggxx100
    ggxx100 Posts: 520 Member
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    Bulk and then cut. Haven't met a bodybuilder that hasn't gone that route.

    Probably the only rule of bro-science that's correct.

    Edit: There is a method to this madness, though. Often while cutting you'll lose muscle along with fat. It'd be much easier to bulk up your muscle mass and then cut, rather than losing the muscle you do have while cutting first and starting from scratch.
  • nikilis
    nikilis Posts: 2,305 Member
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    Are you comfortable with your bodyfat as it is? I would say try to get it as low as you're comfortable with to give yourself more of a buffer for if you **** up your bulk.

    It's a complete judgement call. If it were me, with those stats, I'd go down to about 10-12% and then bulk.

    Is strength a concern? Is it progressing at the moment?

    I could always do with being stronger, I have gained strength and muscle mass over the summer from surfing, running and some weights/lifting/planks/pushups etc.

    my bodyfat isn't bad but with a bit of work I think i could look more "cut" so to speak.

    so we have 1 vote for cut, then bulk.
  • nikilis
    nikilis Posts: 2,305 Member
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    Bulk and then cut. Haven't met a bodybuilder that hasn't gone that route.

    Probably the only rule of bro-science that's correct.

    Edit: There is a method to this madness, though. Often while cutting you'll lose muscle along with fat. It'd be much easier to bulk up your muscle mass and then cut, rather than losing the muscle you do have while cutting first and starting from scratch.

    1 vote for bulk then cut. i lean slightly more towards this.
  • darrensurrey
    darrensurrey Posts: 3,942 Member
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    Bulk and then cut. Haven't met a bodybuilder that hasn't gone that route.

    Probably the only rule of bro-science that's correct.

    Edit: There is a method to this madness, though. Often while cutting you'll lose muscle along with fat. It'd be much easier to bulk up your muscle mass and then cut, rather than losing the muscle you do have while cutting first and starting from scratch.

    I agree with this mainly because I did the opposite and lost what little muscle I had which made me look more emaciated than I had planned or envisioned.

    On the plus side, I know what it takes to cut.

    From the psychology side of things, however, if you're looking to lose weight, then bulking is going to make your body go in the opposite direction so bulking then cutting is quite a long-term solution and you will have to be willing to stay focused through the bulk stage as you put on weight and possibly get fatter.
  • darrensurrey
    darrensurrey Posts: 3,942 Member
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    Now that I've looked through your photos, don't worry about getting fatter. I definitely vote for bulk.
  • nexangelus
    nexangelus Posts: 2,080 Member
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    No expert here, but looking at your food diary and your pics (which both look fabulous by the way), if I were you, I would bulk now....and as you said in your first post, increase protein intake...
  • ggxx100
    ggxx100 Posts: 520 Member
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    Another argument in defense of the bulk:

    Increase muscle mass indisputably raises metabolic rate. After enough gains, you burn more just sitting and blinking than before. Sounds like an exaggeration, but your body really does become a fat-burning machine (or more closely resembles one) after you substantially gain muscle mass.

    After bulking, your body will be more efficient at burning calories, depending on the period of time. Cutting will have more of an effect because of this. Also, the decreased metabolism that cutting brings won't be as much of an issue post gains.

    As to getting fatter, no way in hell does bulking make you "fatter", unless you're intake is causing a surplus of calories. The scale may go up, but you are getting leaner, not gaining more fat in proportion to your body weight.
  • nikilis
    nikilis Posts: 2,305 Member
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    Another argument in defense of the bulk:

    Increase muscle mass indisputably raises metabolic rate. After enough gains, you burn more just sitting and blinking than before. Sounds like an exaggeration, but your body really does become a fat-burning machine (or more closely resembles one) after you substantially gain muscle mass.

    After bulking, your body will be more efficient at burning calories, depending on the period of time. Cutting will have more of an effect because of this. Also, the decreased metabolism that cutting brings won't be as much of an issue post gains.

    As to getting fatter, no way in hell does bulking make you "fatter", unless you're intake is causing a surplus of calories. The scale may go up, but you are getting leaner, not gaining more fat in proportion to your body weight.

    so would you recommend eating maintenance with a high protein intake (1g per 1lb)?
  • darrensurrey
    darrensurrey Posts: 3,942 Member
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    As to getting fatter, no way in hell does bulking make you "fatter", unless you're intake is causing a surplus of calories. The scale may go up, but you are getting leaner, not gaining more fat in proportion to your body weight.

    That's just it, though - when people bulk, they do get fatter because they eat a surplus all the time. You can, of course, calorie cycle but that decreases the speed of bulk.
  • darrensurrey
    darrensurrey Posts: 3,942 Member
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    Interesting article here: http://ectomorphworkout.org/nutrition/bulking-up-to-gain-muscle-when-it-causes-a-permanent-increase-in-fat-cells/

    Relevant although entirely the author's opinion.
  • ggxx100
    ggxx100 Posts: 520 Member
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    Another argument in defense of the bulk:

    Increase muscle mass indisputably raises metabolic rate. After enough gains, you burn more just sitting and blinking than before. Sounds like an exaggeration, but your body really does become a fat-burning machine (or more closely resembles one) after you substantially gain muscle mass.

    After bulking, your body will be more efficient at burning calories, depending on the period of time. Cutting will have more of an effect because of this. Also, the decreased metabolism that cutting brings won't be as much of an issue post gains.

    As to getting fatter, no way in hell does bulking make you "fatter", unless you're intake is causing a surplus of calories. The scale may go up, but you are getting leaner, not gaining more fat in proportion to your body weight.

    I've never seen someone bulk that didnt get fat. By definition, bulking is the process of eating at a surplus. So, yes, you get bigger and fatter. That's the point. When you cut later, you strip the fat, and hopefully keep the teeny tiny muscle that you gained while bulking.

    What exactly is your definition of fatter? Fatter for me means gaining more fat in comparison to the amount of lean body mass.
    You're gaining fat, sure but you're increasing muscle. It's all about the proportions.

    I've been bulking, and have yet to see my body fat percentage go up, even with an 10 pound weight gain. Am I doing it wrong? I hardly think so. Getting fat is having a higher body fat percentage.

    I'd recommend eating above maintenance, with the bulk of those calories coming from protein. It's usually recommended to have your protein after your workout, even though I've found timing doesn't matter at all as long as you're meeting your macros. I guess it's the psychological boost.
  • Sobeeit
    Sobeeit Posts: 42 Member
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    Looking at your pics ...Bulk then cut
  • ggxx100
    ggxx100 Posts: 520 Member
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    Another argument in defense of the bulk:

    Increase muscle mass indisputably raises metabolic rate. After enough gains, you burn more just sitting and blinking than before. Sounds like an exaggeration, but your body really does become a fat-burning machine (or more closely resembles one) after you substantially gain muscle mass.

    After bulking, your body will be more efficient at burning calories, depending on the period of time. Cutting will have more of an effect because of this. Also, the decreased metabolism that cutting brings won't be as much of an issue post gains.

    As to getting fatter, no way in hell does bulking make you "fatter", unless you're intake is causing a surplus of calories. The scale may go up, but you are getting leaner, not gaining more fat in proportion to your body weight.

    I've never seen someone bulk that didnt get fat. By definition, bulking is the process of eating at a surplus. So, yes, you get bigger and fatter. That's the point. When you cut later, you strip the fat, and hopefully keep the teeny tiny muscle that you gained while bulking.

    What exactly is your definition of fatter? Fatter for me means gaining more fat in comparison to the amount of lean body mass.
    You're gaining fat, sure but you're increasing muscle. It's all about the proportions.

    I've been bulking, and have yet to see my body fat percentage go up, even with an 10 pound weight gain. Am I doing it wrong? I hardly think so. Getting fat is having a higher body fat percentage.

    I'd recommend eating above maintenance, with the bulk of those calories coming from protein. It's usually recommended to have your protein after your workout, even though I've found timing doesn't matter at all as long as you're meeting your macros. I guess it's the psychological boost.

    So, you think you've gained 10 lbs of muscle?

    No. Muscle, water weight, and fat. My hair has also grown a bit and I was wearing a heavy winter coat. I also jumped when I got on the scale, makes me a bit heavier as well.
  • mrdexter1
    mrdexter1 Posts: 356 Member
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    you re in the range of up to 20% body fat to best benefit from bulking as a woman and if you want to gain muscle and size its the time to do it as you obviously wont gain muscle if you re cutting and will just waste a couple of months doing so...

    Big oooops , you re a bloke !!! you need to be below 17% to best benefit from bulking muscle gain !
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    Looking at your pics ...Bulk then cut

    This, but I'm bolding the part that has to be taken into consideration whenever deciding this.

    In my opinion there absolutely are circumstances when a beginner would be better off cutting. But for OP, I'd bulk first.
  • SideSteel
    SideSteel Posts: 11,068 Member
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    Getting fat is having a higher body fat percentage.

    Which most people do when bulking. I think it's quite rare for someone to maintain an exact bodyfat% while gaining significant weight.

    If this happened, people would cut once, and then bulk forever.

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