Parents Sue Zoo - For or Against?
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You act as if she threw the child in the pit. Come on.Againts. Also the mother should be punished in my opinion because she fed her child to the dogs. I'm sure the poor woman is devastated, but that doesn't excuse her lack of basic judgement.
Pretty sure she already WAS punished. Having to watch her child get torn to shred in front of her eyes is punishment enough.
I gotta agree with this...horrific punishment is an understatement.
While I don't hold the zoo responsible. I wouldn't want to see the mother "punished" any more than she already has been.
So what about parents that leave their children in hot cars and cook them, or don't buckle them in and the die in a crash, etc. Can no blame be placed on the person responsible because they were already "punished" emotionally?
A mother walks her kid down the street, kid is on the street side, they momentarily go into the street around a parked car as there is a large crowd in front of them, kid pulls away from mom and darts into street....
Is mom negligent because kid was on the "street side"? Because she moved into the street simply trying to get around a "bunch up" ? Thus neglecting the warnings of "don't walk in the street, except at a crosswalk". Come on, this is apples and oranges...
Mom made a terrible judgement call, bypassed warning signs...and then failed to control the motions of her child. That is all true, is she criminally negligent for her childs death as a result? I think it was a grave error on her part, and a horrific accident, and I attribute the "blame" to the mother, but I still consider it an accident.
I am not even commenting on that because it is a terrible analogy. Leaving your kid in a hot car isn't. People warn you not to do it, there are laws and signs, but when a parent does it they are usually charged with a crime. What is different about this? She clearly put her child in danger and broke clear rules doing it. Should be charged IMO.
You're making it sound like kids dying in hot cars results from parents leaving them there intentionally. It's very, very rare that that happens. Usually it's just a horrible mistake and isn't a result of negligence.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html0 -
what if parents let their kids stay in a car that they drive into a lake?0
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You're surrounded by folks hanging onto every word at dinner parties, aren't you?id like for them to take raw meat, place it on the mothers belly and let the dogs have a go at it
RE: the lawsuit..
I've read a few of the stories reporting the incident online. I think it's interesting how quickly people form opinions based on OP's retelling of a story with no links at all. First link shows up in second page of thread and it has some pretty important information that wasn't in OP.
If what the lawsuit alleges is true - that a zoo employee warned the zoo about the behavior, and it can be proven that zoo officials knew parents were holding their kids over the rails, then it seems that some level of responsibility could be pinned on the zoo.
I don't know what warning signs were posted. It's easy to think "the parent should know better," blame everything on the mom, and go off on some rant about personal responsibility from behind my keyboard. But I know that I'm the only parent here that has done something stupid and accidentally put my kid at risk. For all I know, this mom was one of multiple parents doing this at the time, and it's entirely possible that the risk wasn't apparent to her. The netting mentioned in the story (to catch falling debris) might have been mistakenly thought to be a safety net of some kind.
We seem to be assuming that the situation was *clearly* dangerous and the mom knew she was putting her child in harm's way. That may have been the case - and if so, I hope the mother gets charge with child endangerment.
Separately, I wonder what the zoo could have/should have done. In order to attempt to prove the zoo had prior knowledge of the behavior and did nothing to prevent it, the lawsuit has merit. Don't know if that really makes me "for" it, but I'm not against the lawsuit, based on what I've read. There is enough information for me to have some questions about the zoo's responsibility.0 -
im sorry if i offended you but yes, this lawsuit should be thrown out simply on the fact that it is 100% the mothers fault
i know a stop sign everyone runs. i run the stop sign and get killed. do my relatives have a right to sue penndot and the local police because they were told there were multiple people who blow the stop sign off daily?0 -
Against!0
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Your opinion does not make something a fact, even if you use "100%" when stating it.im sorry if i offended you but yes, this lawsuit should be thrown out simply on the fact that it is 100% the mothers fault
i know a stop sign everyone runs. i run the stop sign and get killed. do my relatives have a right to sue penndot and the local police because they were told there were multiple people who blow the stop sign off daily?
If there were trees covering the stop sign and someone had called the city about it, we might be having a comparable scenario.
From what I've read, there is some question as to how "obviously dangerous" the behavior was. There is also reports that the dangers were known to the zoo.
I get the desire for not wanting society to slip into a mushy, finger-pointing couch of blame everyone else. But that desire shouldn't blind us to nuance and detail.0 -
You act as if she threw the child in the pit. Come on.Againts. Also the mother should be punished in my opinion because she fed her child to the dogs. I'm sure the poor woman is devastated, but that doesn't excuse her lack of basic judgement.
Pretty sure she already WAS punished. Having to watch her child get torn to shred in front of her eyes is punishment enough.
I gotta agree with this...horrific punishment is an understatement.
While I don't hold the zoo responsible. I wouldn't want to see the mother "punished" any more than she already has been.
So what about parents that leave their children in hot cars and cook them, or don't buckle them in and the die in a crash, etc. Can no blame be placed on the person responsible because they were already "punished" emotionally?
A mother walks her kid down the street, kid is on the street side, they momentarily go into the street around a parked car as there is a large crowd in front of them, kid pulls away from mom and darts into street....
Is mom negligent because kid was on the "street side"? Because she moved into the street simply trying to get around a "bunch up" ? Thus neglecting the warnings of "don't walk in the street, except at a crosswalk". Come on, this is apples and oranges...
Mom made a terrible judgement call, bypassed warning signs...and then failed to control the motions of her child. That is all true, is she criminally negligent for her childs death as a result? I think it was a grave error on her part, and a horrific accident, and I attribute the "blame" to the mother, but I still consider it an accident.
I am not even commenting on that because it is a terrible analogy. Leaving your kid in a hot car isn't. People warn you not to do it, there are laws and signs, but when a parent does it they are usually charged with a crime. What is different about this? She clearly put her child in danger and broke clear rules doing it. Should be charged IMO.
You're making it sound like kids dying in hot cars results from parents leaving them there intentionally. It's very, very rare that that happens. Usually it's just a horrible mistake and isn't a result of negligence.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/27/AR2009022701549.html
What? How is it not negligence if you leave your kid in a hot car? You know you have a kid with you and that you can't leave them out there. I don't care if it's an accident, you are still responsible.0 -
so far the only thing that has been said is an employee said this is happening and he has been told to mind his own business.
again, it's only being reported, its not a fact
so until it is proven otherwise i am going on the assumption from all i have read and seen on this (i live in the pgh area so yea, i have been in the loop and not relied on a message board for it) the mother lifted her kid on something that is not meant to be used for what she did and she lost grip of her kid and he perished because animals did what came naturaly.0 -
She lifted the kid up over the railing and then dropped him. I'm sure the zoo was not expecting people to chuck toddlers into wild dog enclosures. Come the eff on.
Hahaha yes! ^^0 -
This is totally the parents fault and if anything the zoo should be suing the parents for putting their child in danger. Ridiculous the way people sue these days. Parents do not take enough responsibilities for their children0
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Against!0
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Absolutely against. The entire lawsuit is nonsense!0
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So, wait? If my toddler fell into something filled with a wild pack of dogs I would jump in their and get my *kitten* eaten to try to save my child. Was she just watching?!?!!?! What the hell? Omg.... If someone else dropped their child in their and she hopped in I would too... Just to take some dogs away from her and her child. Or I would tell my husband too....
Anyways, Against.0 -
against......im sure there are signs saying dont stand on railing......even if there isnt that would be common sense....not sure if that exsists anymore. i feel sorry for the mother thats horrible but no right to sue0
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Seriously? She was incredibly stupid, not evil. Good grief.Totally against -- parents need to be responsible. This parent was not as responsible as she should have been.
Also, I'm against the lawsuit. People need to use their brains and be accountable for their own actions.0 -
So, wait? If my toddler fell into something filled with a wild pack of dogs I would jump in their and get my *kitten* eaten to try to save my child. Was she just watching?!?!!?! What the hell? Omg.... If someone else dropped their child in their and she hopped in I would too... Just to take some dogs away from her and her child. Or I would tell my husband too....
Anyways, Against.
ya.she did try to go in but was held back. a worker tried to save him and an animal was killed in the process if i read right... im going to let my toddler run across a highway and when he gets hit ill sue the the state because thats the right thing to do. theres no signs or anything telling me not to so its whoever is over the highways fault for the car hitting him not mine.0 -
Seriously? She was incredibly stupid, not evil. Good grief.Totally against -- parents need to be responsible. This parent was not as responsible as she should have been.
Also, I'm against the lawsuit. People need to use their brains and be accountable for their own actions.
You misquoted me. Nowhere did I say she was evil. I said she was not as responsible as she should have been. Having grown up visiting wildlife parks where things like buffalo and bears roam free and living in an area where cougars leave footprints in my backyard --
If there is a fence and a barrier and signs saying DANGER DO NOT DO THIS (and from the pictures I saw -- she very clearly had to go above and beyond these to put her child over the barriers and into the air ABOVE the enclosure) -- that is a lack of responsibility. A responsible parent does not put their child in a situation where they are exposed to wild animals. Holding your toddler in the air above an open enclosure? Completely irresponsible behavior and a clear lack of common sense.0 -
I did not miquote you. I quoted exactly what you said. The thing you wished on that mother is a terrible punishment for something that, while stupid, was accidental. Saying she deserves such a thing implies that she did it on purpose, which would make her evil.
Seriously? She was incredibly stupid, not evil. Good grief.Totally against -- parents need to be responsible. This parent was not as responsible as she should have been.
Also, I'm against the lawsuit. People need to use their brains and be accountable for their own actions.
You misquoted me. Nowhere did I say she was evil. I said she was not as responsible as she should have been. Having grown up visiting wildlife parks where things like buffalo and bears roam free and living in an area where cougars leave footprints in my backyard --
If there is a fence and a barrier and signs saying DANGER DO NOT DO THIS (and from the pictures I saw -- she very clearly had to go above and beyond these to put her child over the barriers and into the air ABOVE the enclosure) -- that is a lack of responsibility. A responsible parent does not put their child in a situation where they are exposed to wild animals. Holding your toddler in the air above an open enclosure? Completely irresponsible behavior and a clear lack of common sense.
Like I said, people need to use their brains and take responsibility -- for actions AND words.0 -
Just a note for clarification: According to the story, she tried to get in to save the child, but other guests held her back because it was unsafe and would likely have ended with both of them being killed.So, wait? If my toddler fell into something filled with a wild pack of dogs I would jump in their and get my *kitten* eaten to try to save my child. Was she just watching?!?!!?! What the hell?0 -
i accidently quoted instead of editing0
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Argh! NM. I'm on my phone and thought I was quoting the guy who said they should let the put raw meat on the mom's stomach. Sorry! Tried to edit the above response and it's too difficult from the phone.0
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This was what I meant to respond to in my first post.id like for them to take raw meat, place it on the mothers belly and let the dogs have a go at it
Mea culpa.0 -
This was what I meant to respond to in my first post.id like for them to take raw meat, place it on the mothers belly and let the dogs have a go at it
Mea culpa.
not for her child dying, even i am not that insensitive but for bringing about a lawsuit over something she was ultimately responsible for0 -
the official statement on why they are suing
Full statement issued by the attorney for Elizabeth and Jason Derkosh, whose son, Maddox, was killed in the African painted dogs exhibit at Pittsburgh Zoo & PPG Aquarium:
In response to numerous media inquiries, we can confirm that we have filed a Civil Complaint in the Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, Court of Common Pleas asserting claims that include wrongful death and negligence, resulting from the November 4, 2012, fatal mauling of two-year-old Maddox Derkosh by a pack of African wild dogs on the grounds of the Pittsburgh Zoo. The Complaint, which names the Pittsburgh Zoo & PPG Aquarium and the Zoological Society of Pittsburgh as defendants, was filed on behalf of Elizabeth and Jason Derkosh, parents of Maddox Derkosh. He was their only child.
Our Complaint details the events -- including the litany of institutional lapses in fundamental exhibit design, safety, and security that caused Maddox's death. Elizabeth and Jason have asked us to find out why the Zoo had an unsafe exhibit, why they ignored warnings from their own employee regarding the very danger that killed Maddox and to ensure that no other family has to suffer the same unimaginable tragedy.
The filing marks just the beginning of the legal process to demonstrate that the death of Maddox Derkosh was absolutely preventable and that the Zoo failed in its responsibility to protect Maddox -- and every other visitor to the wild dog exhibit -- from harm. We now know, and the Complaint details, that the Zoo's management was warned, before the tragedy, by at least one employee, that parents would lift their children to see through the viewing enclosure "at least ten" times every day. Rather than thanking their employee for bringing this hazard to their attention, and then correcting it, the Zoo curtly reprimanded him and told him, "This is not your concern, go back to work."
Tragically, Maddox fell as his mother held him to see into the exhibit through the viewing opening. The Complaint details and includes photos of the precautions taken by other Zoos to protect their patrons from African wild dogs including the use of barrier glass, moats, and wire mesh, preventing the very tragedy that occurred at the Pittsburgh Zoo.
The Zoo knew or should have known how to protect its visitors from the killer dogs, and the fatal consequences that would likely result when "human prey" suddenly appeared in their territory. Any chance of survival was diminished by the Zoo's abysmal emergency response plan, which included blank and useless tranquilizer darts.
Elizabeth and Jason are loving parents. They still mourn. They still hurt and will hurt the rest of their lives. They deeply appreciate the support of the greater Pittsburgh community and they are determined to do what they can to ensure that what happened to their only child can never happen again at the Pittsburgh Zoo, or at any zoo. They remain especially grateful for the outpouring of love and goodwill for the "Trucks for Maddox" holiday toy truck drive that celebrates the legacy of Maddox and his caring for other kids.
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/neighborhoods-city/the-derkosh-familys-statement-on-the-filing-of-a-lawsuit-against-the-pittsburgh-zoo-688843/#ixzz2UEp9Pybz
amazing that nowhere in the statement do they even acknowledge they had a responsibility to heed the signs posted
IF there is proof other than he said she said that they were warned that people were ignoring the signs saying not to do this i would find at most both sides guilty and award the parents the lump sum of $1 or ensure anything greater would go to charities and not to them0 -
the official statement on why they are suing
Full statement issued by the attorney for Elizabeth and Jason Derkosh, whose son, Maddox, was killed in the African painted dogs exhibit at Pittsburgh Zoo & PPG Aquarium:
In response to numerous media inquiries, we can confirm that we have filed a Civil Complaint in the Allegheny County, Pennsylvania, Court of Common Pleas asserting claims that include wrongful death and negligence, resulting from the November 4, 2012, fatal mauling of two-year-old Maddox Derkosh by a pack of African wild dogs on the grounds of the Pittsburgh Zoo. The Complaint, which names the Pittsburgh Zoo & PPG Aquarium and the Zoological Society of Pittsburgh as defendants, was filed on behalf of Elizabeth and Jason Derkosh, parents of Maddox Derkosh. He was their only child.
Our Complaint details the events -- including the litany of institutional lapses in fundamental exhibit design, safety, and security that caused Maddox's death. Elizabeth and Jason have asked us to find out why the Zoo had an unsafe exhibit, why they ignored warnings from their own employee regarding the very danger that killed Maddox and to ensure that no other family has to suffer the same unimaginable tragedy.
The filing marks just the beginning of the legal process to demonstrate that the death of Maddox Derkosh was absolutely preventable and that the Zoo failed in its responsibility to protect Maddox -- and every other visitor to the wild dog exhibit -- from harm. We now know, and the Complaint details, that the Zoo's management was warned, before the tragedy, by at least one employee, that parents would lift their children to see through the viewing enclosure "at least ten" times every day. Rather than thanking their employee for bringing this hazard to their attention, and then correcting it, the Zoo curtly reprimanded him and told him, "This is not your concern, go back to work."
Tragically, Maddox fell as his mother held him to see into the exhibit through the viewing opening. The Complaint details and includes photos of the precautions taken by other Zoos to protect their patrons from African wild dogs including the use of barrier glass, moats, and wire mesh, preventing the very tragedy that occurred at the Pittsburgh Zoo.
The Zoo knew or should have known how to protect its visitors from the killer dogs, and the fatal consequences that would likely result when "human prey" suddenly appeared in their territory. Any chance of survival was diminished by the Zoo's abysmal emergency response plan, which included blank and useless tranquilizer darts.
Elizabeth and Jason are loving parents. They still mourn. They still hurt and will hurt the rest of their lives. They deeply appreciate the support of the greater Pittsburgh community and they are determined to do what they can to ensure that what happened to their only child can never happen again at the Pittsburgh Zoo, or at any zoo. They remain especially grateful for the outpouring of love and goodwill for the "Trucks for Maddox" holiday toy truck drive that celebrates the legacy of Maddox and his caring for other kids.
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/neighborhoods-city/the-derkosh-familys-statement-on-the-filing-of-a-lawsuit-against-the-pittsburgh-zoo-688843/#ixzz2UEp9Pybz
amazing that nowhere in the statement do they even acknowledge they had a responsibility to heed the signs posted
IF there is proof other than he said she said that they were warned that people were ignoring the signs saying not to do this i would find at most both sides guilty and award the parents the lump sum of $1 or ensure anything greater would go to charities and not to them
I agree with your statement. I would find it hard for the parents to win due to the fact that the park passed minimum safety inspection standards that are put in place to operate this establishment.0 -
Against. If it were a case of children being able to easily fall in, I'd be for. If it were a case where these animals were presented as tame and gentle? I'd be for. If it were a case of barriers collapsing or otherwise failing, I'd be for. I'm reminded of Michael Jackson holding that poor infant over the railing to give the photographers a look. If he'd lost his grip on that child, that would be on him, not on the hotel, no matter how many other parents had also dangled their children over the edge. When I was a child, my father used to dangle me over the railing of a bridge spanning the Susquehanna. If I'd fallen and died, that would have been my father's fault, not the bridgemaker's, not the municipality's.
I don't care how many parents do something foolish, it doesn't absolve them of responsibility. "Everyone else does it" wasn't an excuse when I was a kid and it's not an excuse now.0 -
Against. She shouldn't have lifted the child above the railing. Doing that was risking the child falling in, and I'm sure there were signs to warn against doing that, but she thought that wouldn't happen to her.0
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This was what I meant to respond to in my first post.id like for them to take raw meat, place it on the mothers belly and let the dogs have a go at it
Mea culpa.
not for her child dying, even i am not that insensitive but for bringing about a lawsuit over something she was ultimately responsible for
I still very strongly disagree with you.
Child molesters and people of that ilk deserve something like that. Not a grieving mother because of a mistake and a stupid lawsuit.0 -
My question is, as the child was 2 years old, how hard is it to hold your 2 year old child up so he can see better without endangering him? To me it seems like a no brainer, I have been following this story as well, as I'm originally from the general area.0
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For those of you wondering about safety standards for zoos, this is from one of the articles already linked:
"Feldman said the Pittsburgh Zoo successfully completed its five-year review in September, which means it meets or exceeds all safety standards."
So the zoo was meeting (or exceeding) all safety standards. If you think those standards should be higher, that's an entirely different conversation, and an entirely different legal process.
^^^ Thank you for posting this.
Yes.
Fundamental, factual and relevant.0
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