How to increase swimming endurance and power?

dbmata
dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
Hey there,
So I'm finding that swimming is just flat out kicking my *kitten*. Hard. I'm becoming more efficient in the water, and gaining a better overall feel of being in it... but I'll be gobsmacked if I'm not sucking wind hard after 25y or 50y at a go.

Aside from just swimming more, any good ways to increase the shoulder endurance so you can pull at a consistent rate for longer? I'm practicing the crawl and the breaststroke currently. In case that matters.
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Replies

  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 49,061 Member
    Like resistance and endurance training, "sprints" in intervals and using those hand paddles and pushing hard through the stroke should help increase power.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • bullsfan22
    bullsfan22 Posts: 104
    There are some drills you can do to increase your technique and breathing. I found when I first started I was like you sucking wind after a while, it takes some time to get that endurance going (approx. 2-3 months before I could swim 10 laps nonstop consistently, 40 laps during one period).

    The drills are mainly side bar (sp?) with breathing mechanics, simple what you do is roll to one side with your head facing the bottom of the pool, keep kicking and blowing bubbles, then only come up for air when exhausted and continue, I use to do these drills daily for months before I go my breathing to where I wanted it. Also make sure you switch the side bars so you can practice breathing on both sides, my instructor told me of people who developed back pain only breathing from one side (not sure how true but my left was horrendous before I did these drills).

    For breaststroke the only drill I know is to use a pull buoy (sp? again) and just focus on the hands and breathing (up and back in water) and worry about legs later.

    Good luck, best exercise imho!
  • ironanimal
    ironanimal Posts: 5,922 Member
    I was (am) a coach so I should be able to help you out some.

    What's your breathing:stroke rate on crawl?

    How is your hand entering the water on each pull? There should be no strain on the shoulder at all until you began the pull back after fully extending the arm.

    General things you can do; kick drills with a float, make use of hand paddles, use a pull buoy between your legs to perform arm-only drills. Outside of the pool, sprints - particularly hill sprints, work really well for building the aerobic capacity you need in swimming.

    For the shoulders, standard mobility exercises, OHP, Pullups etc.

    Might be worth adding Backstroke sometimes too, as that really helps loosen up the shoulders and will be very telling if your kick is weak and your upper body is having to work too hard, whilst allowing you a steadier supply of air.
  • _Zardoz_
    _Zardoz_ Posts: 3,987 Member
    So is your problem your arm strength or your breathing? If it's your breathing try building up with breast stroke first as its an easier stroke to get your breathing correct. Then you can build up your distance which will increase your aerobic abilities you can then move on to other strokes. If it's arm strength intervals and weights are the way to go. There are also some great training videos on you tube that can show you correct form for the strokes. Like anything though your endurance will come the more you do it and with better form
  • lizsmith1976
    lizsmith1976 Posts: 497 Member
    Hey, I feel your pain. I went from not being able to swim a little over a year ago to swimming 2.4 miles a couple of weeks ago in an Ironman. Still hate swimming...

    I can't help with breast stroke, don't know how to do it... :)

    If you are "sucking wind" after 25 or 50 yards then you are probably using your legs too much. Especially in the crawl (freestyle), your legs need to not be "fluttering" rapidly, which burns out your legs and gets your heart rate high. You want to scissor your legs, rather than just fluttering your feet/ankles, and not at too rapid a pace.

    Another typical reason for that, make sure you are fully blowing out all of the air when your face is underwater so that you are ready to take in just fresh air when you do. I once saw a swim tip "only breathe out underwater", which I thought was dumb because, you can't breathe in, underwater, haha. But what they meant was, don't waste anytime breathing out when your face is above water. If your face is above water, you should have already blown everything out.

    How are you breathing? I tried forever to breathe on the 3rd stroke (alternating sides) but just gave that up and I am so glad. I now breathe every second stroke, always on my left side, just be careful to "spot" and make sure you are on path rather than heading off in one direction.

    For shoulder endurance, I do yoga, lots and lots of yoga. I know that there are swim-specific strength training exercise too, but I don't do them. Make sure your swim technique is good by "creating your torpedo" (keep an arm fully lengthened out in front of you until the next arm is about to take over, and make sure that your arm that pulls underneath does so in an S shape and then skims that side of your body before raising out of the water again. A lot of what I thought was weakness was fixed (or at least I got faster) by working on my technique..

    I do speed drills or interval training mostly for fun. Sometimes it is fun to just blast down a length or two of the pool absolutely as fast as you can. It's tough to maintain good technique when doing that though, but you will get more efficient at breathing out underwater and "sucking in" even more wind when you pull your face out briefly.

    Good luck! It is such good exercise, but it is surprisingly difficult to do it well!
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
    have you ever had real swimming lessons? i mean to say, have you ever swam competitively? swimming is just a thing that you need to have a good stroke to do. unlike running or cycling where your body kinda figures it out over time, with swimming, it takes a lot of practice to get your body moving efficiently through the water.

    a lot of people perceive their exertion as a sign of a good work out, when in fact they were just not moving through the water properly.

    a lot of it is conditioning, and it takes time. unlike running or cycling, you can't suck in air when ever you want. you have to turn and breathe, and a lot of people don't know how to do that properly.

    i wish i could explain myself better, but basically, freestyle is swam on your side. and you should keep a straight line with your body as much as possible. on the up stroke (when your arm is out of the water) your arm shouldn't swing around. that is wasted movement. bring your elbow up and lead with the elbow, dragging your fingers along the water and when your elbow can't go out any further extend your hand, and at the end your hand should turn palm facing out and your thumb should enter the water first.

    another drill is catch-up. you stroke with one arm, and keep the other hand fully extended in front of you until the touch.

    you would benefit from classes, or at least a lot of youtube videos.

    btw, i know this might sound silly, but you do know you are supposed to breathe every couple of strokes, right? i mean, i thought that might be a given, but then some girl at the pool was talking to me and saying how she can't make it across the pool without breathing. after talking to her a bit, i learned that she thought you were supposed to hold your breath completely for a lap. so she would swim, and stop half way panting... swim again... stop...
  • bio01979
    bio01979 Posts: 313
    swimming is just a thing that you need to have a good stroke to do. unlike running or cycling where your body kinda figures it out over time, with swimming, it takes a lot of practice to get your body moving efficiently through the water.

    a lot of people perceive their exertion as a sign of a good work out, when in fact they were just not moving through the water properly.

    that is very true, moving through the water better makes a huge difference. One thing I have noticed that many new swimmers do is that their hips and legs drag a lot, perhaps try a pull buoy to keep your legs up. I am not sure if this is core or what it is (but if it is core than even in my supreme out of shape state I still have a good core lol)

    The drills already mentioned are good :)

    Also try to work on getting so that you are only turning your head a little bit to breathe. I find that many new swimmers tend to lift their head (and shoulders) very high out of the water to breathe and this takes a lot of energy. It takes time to get to more efficient breathing but it is definitely worth working on :)

    Once you reach an efficient stroke swimming is a great workout and you will find that you can swim for many kms at 80% effort :)

    Maybe check to see if there is a masters club at the pool you go to, they would be able to help you with your stroke and with drills. It is usually free and generally open to people of all swimming abilities. Not regular swimming lesson instructors though because in my experience regular swimming lessons don't teach you how to swim properly for training or exercise :) but a masters swim coach generally has competitive swimming experience :)
  • bio01979
    bio01979 Posts: 313
    my previous comments were mostly for freestyle, not breastroke :)

    and I wanted to add that a pull buoy will help with working on more efficient breathing because then you aren't having to worry about what your legs are doing while you are focusing on your arms and breathing :)
  • HardcoreP0rk
    HardcoreP0rk Posts: 936 Member
    Do you just swim laps or do you do drills and stuff? I learned a lot of great drills from my swimming instructor.
  • Pixi_Rex
    Pixi_Rex Posts: 1,676 Member
    Drills. I cannot stress that enough. Google Swimming drills if you don't know any there are a couple of sites that will do pre-made swimming drills for free and they will give you a place to start.

    I used to live at the pool, and I still would if it wasn't for me having to go to work in the day. Endurance is something you build up to. If you are just doing crawl break it up, do strokes that require front and back - both are really good for you.

    Sculling (its a forgotten stroke for the most part) can help you with your strokes - I had a coach at one time that made me do lap after lap after lap of sculling and I can tell you that it really did help. I still do 100M of sculling when I am in the pool... head first and foot first sculling.

    Breathing properly helps too as well as stroke couting. If you look up swimming drills though - the sites explain it all (Especially if you have never really done swimming) and they have videos to help you if you are unsure (youtube is also a great resource). Remember though, like anything endurance takes time to build, so take your time learn the strokes, be slow if you need to be its not a race to the finish, eventually your speed will come.
  • Bekahmardis
    Bekahmardis Posts: 602 Member
    How many strokes do you take before you breathe? As a former competitive swimmer, all of my swim lessons as a kid taught me to breathe every time I took a stroke with my right hand. I discovered that I started to hyperventilate if I did that, so I switched to every third stroke and finally I took a breath on every fourth stroke.

    Remember to actually breathe OUT while your head is underwater! I watched a number of people who did the sprints (I swam the long-distance/endurance) during my competition days who actually held their breath then blew out *and* in when they took their breathing stroke. NOT A GOOD IDEA! Just like in running, you need to keep your breaths even and consistent.
  • sweetteacher123
    sweetteacher123 Posts: 178
    Thanks for posting this thread! I started swimming a few months ago, and though it is harder than hell (!), I really do enjoy it! Great tips everyone.
  • akern1987
    akern1987 Posts: 288 Member
    I was on swim team in high school, and beyond just practice, practice, practice, there are some specific exercises you can do to target those muscles.

    1. Butterfly!
    2. Shoulder Press
    3. Shoulder Extensions (to the side)
    4. Push Ups!
    6. LEG PRESS (the majority of your momentum and speed should be coming from your legs when you swim. Don't strain your arms, use them to help guide and pull you of course, but your speed and power should come from your legs and core!)

    Good Luck! (I love to swim! can't wait to get back into it this summer!)
    :bigsmile:
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    Oh man, this thread got bigger than I can handle too quickly! :D

    If I don't respond directly to you, I'm sorry, if I miss a question, let me know.

    Coaching: Never been coached, never swam competitively. I learned to swim before I learned to write though, so I've been familiar with the water most of my life, and I don't often have panic issues, and overall I feel comfortable.

    Stroke rate: No clue. I have a hard time counting past 5 at the moment while swimming too. My next planned swim is Weds. I'll make a note to get a stroke rate for 25y.

    Breathing: I am trying to find where I can breathe. Today things were working well every 3 pulls, then almost like a switch going off, I had to change to to 2. For the breaststroke, I feel comfortable at two, then that same switch goes, and then I have to breathe every stroke. Also when I hit that point my ability to pull well diminishes rapidly. I'm also trying to remember to breathe out underwater. I do it, but not sure I'm emptying my lungs. Then again, I've been told that's wise for open water swimming in a scrum.

    Kicking: I kick too much, I think I flutter like a bird with a broken wing. My lane neighbor today had a rather odd kick which I'm curious about, it was about 1-1.5 kicks per stroke, seemed to be just enough to keep his feet from dragging and to keep his very mild rotation going. I'm curious about that kick, because I think I'm kicking myself out, and I know my kick isn't too stellar. When I do kick drills, I think I do 25y faster with the frog kick from the breaststroke than with the crawl's kick.

    Drag and moving through the water: I'm making a very concious effort to look down, and press my chest down while bringing my hips up, because if I don't I can feel that my hips drop and I start dragging my legs through the water. That's ok when I'm scuba diving and looking at stuff, not ok when I'm "racing". I'm also learning better rotation, but still not there, obviously. I did some catchup drills today, 2x25 on each side, and I found if I wait too long before I pull again, I'll just sink which for a moment caused a ton of panic. (hooray weakness.)

    Drills: I'm currently doing the following drills:
    1. Really bad catchups. I'm getting the coordination figured out though.
    2. Kickboard laps using the crawl kick and then the breaststroke kick
    3. Pull laps using a pullbuoy for both crawl and breaststroke

    I'd like to incorporate side stroking and something to better help my rotation.

    This morning's swim was: 2x50 for warmup, 4x25 flutter kick, 4x25 frog kick, 2x25 swim, 4x25 catchups, 2x25 pullbuoy breaststroke pulls, 2x25 pullbuoy crawl pulls, 1x50 swim. I didn't get a cooldown in as I had to get out quick to head to work.

    ironanimal - sprints, that's excellent, I plan to do those anyway for my running. :)

    lizsmith1976 - Yoga is a great idea, I need to get back into that. I think I may need to try adding in a good swimming sprint lap or two just to push the envelope.

    CaptApollo - That was a good description. I've never thought of freestyle being swum on your side. I always saw it as chest down. Good description for the recovery as well, I hadn't thought of it as moving my elbow, and the hand a bit along for the ride. Heh, yeah, I know to breathe. When I was a kid I liked to take a big breath and see how far I could swim just kicking on that one breath, I could get a ways back then, now, no way. I'm looking to figure out a good schedule for instruction, but I have identified a swim class tailored specifically for triathlons (which is why I'm swimming) that I want to check out on saturdays.

    bio01979 - Aren't masters clubs more for people who are swimming competitively outside of college age? When I turn my head to breathe, I do it only a little bit, because I'm trying to make the whole rotation come from my hips, so once I'm out in chop, if I can't get clear air from the rotation, I can still turn my head and get to another breath.

    ninerbuff - I do have two items that I think will help, paddles, and I have a chute, just haven't used them yet, I want to be less like a drunk narwhal before I bring them into the mix. I have been trying to do 12.5y and 25y "sprints" where I just pull and kick faster for the rest of the lap.


    Ok, that's everything I saw in the thread when I started this response. :)
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    How many strokes do you take before you breathe? As a former competitive swimmer, all of my swim lessons as a kid taught me to breathe every time I took a stroke with my right hand. I discovered that I started to hyperventilate if I did that, so I switched to every third stroke and finally I took a breath on every fourth stroke.

    Remember to actually breathe OUT while your head is underwater! I watched a number of people who did the sprints (I swam the long-distance/endurance) during my competition days who actually held their breath then blew out *and* in when they took their breathing stroke. NOT A GOOD IDEA! Just like in running, you need to keep your breaths even and consistent.

    I catch myself doing that, and I'm really trying to breathe out right before my rotation to breathe. Lot of moving parts. I'm feeling ok with third stroke, but sometimes have to switch up to every other stroke if I'm tired.

    I'm also swimming in tri shorts, which feel a touch like diapers at the moment, so I'm distracted too. :D
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
    Find and join your local triathlon club. Trust me. I put it off for a while, for various reasons.

    However note that pool swimming and triathlon swimming can be two very different things.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    Find and join your local triathlon club. Trust me. I put it off for a while, for various reasons.

    However note that pool swimming and triathlon swimming can be two very different things.

    I'm not sure I mentioned it but the Y has tri specific stuff I'm going to check out because the cost can't be beat (free), and then I found a local tri store with weekly no drop rides that I'm going to join. I'm probably going to have to find me that tri club. There has to be one around here.
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member
    and dude, get yourself some proper swim wear. like jammers.
  • lizsmith1976
    lizsmith1976 Posts: 497 Member
    and dude, get yourself some proper swim wear. like jammers.

    HAHA! Agreed! Tri shorts are meant to be functional (at best) in 3 sports. If you want your swimming to get better, then for now swim in something made for swimming :)
  • No_Finish_Line
    No_Finish_Line Posts: 3,661 Member
    Competitive swimmer and later coach. haven't been in the water in years.

    so far the best advice i've seen is blow all your air out under water. tho i can see how that might be less then ideal in a crowded triathalon. good thing your in a pool.

    Let me first say that i'm really surprised at how many out of shape people tell me that they can or have swam a full mile plus at a time. Thats really impressive considering every 15-22 year old i've seen in lifeguard training had a very difficult time completeing a 500 yard swim, when a mile is more like 1650 yards.

    but anyway

    As alluded to before, technique is king in swimming, far more so then any other sport. its not the fastest or strongest that wins, its the most technically proficient swimmer that wins.

    unfortuantely, its nearly impossible to correct your stroke all on your own, but the drills will help, particularly the catch up because you can slow down and concentrate on what your doing.

    let me boil it down to 3 things i think you can work on that will help the most.

    1. breathe when its most comfortable for you. there a lot of schools of thought on how often to breathe. my coach wanted me to breathe as little as possible. Seems like olympic swimmers breath much more often then i was instructed to do. and all this is wrapped up in speed which is directly related to efficency but not the same thing. if breathing too often seems like more work, breath less. if you feel your not getting enough air, breath more. Holding your breath too long is just going to tire you out faster tho, and probably only has an honest place in short sprints, 200 or less. not everyone will think of a 200 as a sprint lol. i only breathe two one side. personally i think your better off being able to do it on both, but some olympic atheletes only breathe to one side so your probably ok there.

    2. if you sinking during the catch up stroke, your kick really sucks. lol, don't worry, mine does too. the kick has a lot more to do with moving through the water effeciently then you may realize. i think mistakes in kick technique are harder to correct then stroke becasue they are more sublte. it should involve your whole leg, hip to toe, in a whip like motion. learning the dolphin kick used in the butterfly may help because it emphasises the whip motion. honestly, after 8 years competitive swiming, thats the only kick i really do right. the more effeicent your kick, the far more efficent you move through the water. think about it, your constantly using your legs everyday, its not that they are weak when swimming, just not used properly. if you can harness the power and endurance of your legs, then your arms will tire far less quickly.

    3. this is specific to freestyle, and mentioned before. your body has to roll, like barrel roll. the centerline of your body (think nose to belly button) are the axis of rotation. when your body rolls, your shoulder comes up out of the water, and at that point you barely have to turn your head at all to breathe, and breathing is far more natural, comfortable, and efficient. if your not rolling your body, every time you take a breath its like your completely interupting your stroke and momementum through the water. there is an excellent way to practice this in a dry land drill. take a broom and lean it against your forehead. simulate front crawl with your arms but now try to roll your body so that your shoulders point infront of you... with out distrubing the broom.

    other then that, i was always taught to look at the wall not the floor of the pool, but thats more race mechanics. not sure how it effects efficency but the typically go hand in hand.

    everything should be on top of the water, especially for freestyle. if your torso or legs are pointing down, its only going to make things harder. try to keep it all on the surface.

    id concentrate more on what my hands should be doing in the water rather then out. out makes a differnce but i think what they do in is easier to pic up and gives you more when you get it.

    i'd concentrate on my kick. i'm willing to bet moving through the water with a kick board might be harder then swimming. try to improve that.
  • No_Finish_Line
    No_Finish_Line Posts: 3,661 Member
    also think about what your doing when you get tired. if you just concentrate on being tired you'll just stop.

    doing it right when your tired is how you progress
  • mikeatmichael
    mikeatmichael Posts: 92 Member
    I wasn't going to respond to this as there are already a lot of great suggestions. So many that it might be overload. But I was doing my mile swim at the Y on my lunch hour and got to thinking that maybe I could simplify.

    I started swimming laps 20 years ago when I was 36. Coincidentally 36 laps is a mile, so I thought I'd make that my goal. I was always a strong swimmer, but my form wasn't very good. I started at 10 laps and added one lap per visit until I got to 36. I've been doing that on and off since, sometimes slacking off for a year or two but always coming back to it. This year I've been going three times a week on lunch hours. Over the years my form has improved until now I think its probably pretty good. One of the other regulars is a swim coach so I've asked him for tips.

    Not having seen you swim but based on watching other lap swimmers here's my recommendations:

    1. Relax
    2. Slow down
    3. Work on form
    a. lengthen your stroke - reach out as far as you can on the beginning of the stroke and pull back all the way to your thigh
    b. work on breathing every three strokes, on alternate sides

    But 1. and 2. are the most important. Until you get that right you won't be able to hone your stroke. Speed comes more from efficiency than effort.
  • Slatzuk
    Slatzuk Posts: 80 Member
    Have a look at the Mr Smooth animation here.

    http://www.swimsmooth.com/
  • Capt_Apollo
    Capt_Apollo Posts: 9,026 Member

    other then that, i was always taught to look at the wall not the floor of the pool, but thats more race mechanics. not sure how it effects efficency but the typically go hand in hand.

    everything should be on top of the water, especially for freestyle. if your torso or legs are pointing down, its only going to make things harder. try to keep it all on the surface.

    this is true. keep your head pointing down, chin tucked in. that'll help keep you body up right. i see people swimming with there head up, like they're flying. it causes there legs to go down into the water, so they drag. you won't hit the wall, because you'll be following the line on the pool floor and when you see the T, you know the wall is roughly two strokes away and yo won't hit it.
  • bio01979
    bio01979 Posts: 313
    Competitive swimmer and later coach. haven't been in the water in years.

    so far the best advice i've seen is blow all your air out under water. tho i can see how that might be less then ideal in a crowded triathalon. good thing your in a pool.

    Let me first say that i'm really surprised at how many out of shape people tell me that they can or have swam a full mile plus at a time. Thats really impressive considering every 15-22 year old i've seen in lifeguard training had a very difficult time completeing a 500 yard swim, when a mile is more like 1650 yards.

    but anyway

    As alluded to before, technique is king in swimming, far more so then any other sport. its not the fastest or strongest that wins, its the most technically proficient swimmer that wins.

    unfortuantely, its nearly impossible to correct your stroke all on your own, but the drills will help, particularly the catch up because you can slow down and concentrate on what your doing.

    let me boil it down to 3 things i think you can work on that will help the most.

    1. breathe when its most comfortable for you. there a lot of schools of thought on how often to breathe. my coach wanted me to breathe as little as possible. Seems like olympic swimmers breath much more often then i was instructed to do. and all this is wrapped up in speed which is directly related to efficency but not the same thing. if breathing too often seems like more work, breath less. if you feel your not getting enough air, breath more. Holding your breath too long is just going to tire you out faster tho, and probably only has an honest place in short sprints, 200 or less. not everyone will think of a 200 as a sprint lol. i only breathe two one side. personally i think your better off being able to do it on both, but some olympic atheletes only breathe to one side so your probably ok there.

    2. if you sinking during the catch up stroke, your kick really sucks. lol, don't worry, mine does too. the kick has a lot more to do with moving through the water effeciently then you may realize. i think mistakes in kick technique are harder to correct then stroke becasue they are more sublte. it should involve your whole leg, hip to toe, in a whip like motion. learning the dolphin kick used in the butterfly may help because it emphasises the whip motion. honestly, after 8 years competitive swiming, thats the only kick i really do right. the more effeicent your kick, the far more efficent you move through the water. think about it, your constantly using your legs everyday, its not that they are weak when swimming, just not used properly. if you can harness the power and endurance of your legs, then your arms will tire far less quickly.

    3. this is specific to freestyle, and mentioned before. your body has to roll, like barrel roll. the centerline of your body (think nose to belly button) are the axis of rotation. when your body rolls, your shoulder comes up out of the water, and at that point you barely have to turn your head at all to breathe, and breathing is far more natural, comfortable, and efficient. if your not rolling your body, every time you take a breath its like your completely interupting your stroke and momementum through the water. there is an excellent way to practice this in a dry land drill. take a broom and lean it against your forehead. simulate front crawl with your arms but now try to roll your body so that your shoulders point infront of you... with out distrubing the broom.

    other then that, i was always taught to look at the wall not the floor of the pool, but thats more race mechanics. not sure how it effects efficency but the typically go hand in hand.

    everything should be on top of the water, especially for freestyle. if your torso or legs are pointing down, its only going to make things harder. try to keep it all on the surface.

    id concentrate more on what my hands should be doing in the water rather then out. out makes a differnce but i think what they do in is easier to pic up and gives you more when you get it.

    i'd concentrate on my kick. i'm willing to bet moving through the water with a kick board might be harder then swimming. try to improve that.

    I was actually quite surprised that as out of shape as I am now, I can still do similar practice speeds and can still swim over a km no problem

    but I swam competitively for 15 years, I may be fat and injured now but I was practically born in the water lol and swimming and efficient technique is as natural as breathing lol

    I have seen young fit people struggle because they were taught to swim the red Cross way and it isn't very efficient for fitness swimming, just emphasizing how important efficient technique is

    great tips on being more efficient :)
  • bio01979
    bio01979 Posts: 313
    Oh man, this thread got bigger than I can handle too quickly! :D

    If I don't respond directly to you, I'm sorry, if I miss a question, let me know.

    Coaching: Never been coached, never swam competitively. I learned to swim before I learned to write though, so I've been familiar with the water most of my life, and I don't often have panic issues, and overall I feel comfortable.

    Stroke rate: No clue. I have a hard time counting past 5 at the moment while swimming too. My next planned swim is Weds. I'll make a note to get a stroke rate for 25y.

    Breathing: I am trying to find where I can breathe. Today things were working well every 3 pulls, then almost like a switch going off, I had to change to to 2. For the breaststroke, I feel comfortable at two, then that same switch goes, and then I have to breathe every stroke. Also when I hit that point my ability to pull well diminishes rapidly. I'm also trying to remember to breathe out underwater. I do it, but not sure I'm emptying my lungs. Then again, I've been told that's wise for open water swimming in a scrum.

    Kicking: I kick too much, I think I flutter like a bird with a broken wing. My lane neighbor today had a rather odd kick which I'm curious about, it was about 1-1.5 kicks per stroke, seemed to be just enough to keep his feet from dragging and to keep his very mild rotation going. I'm curious about that kick, because I think I'm kicking myself out, and I know my kick isn't too stellar. When I do kick drills, I think I do 25y faster with the frog kick from the breaststroke than with the crawl's kick.

    Drag and moving through the water: I'm making a very concious effort to look down, and press my chest down while bringing my hips up, because if I don't I can feel that my hips drop and I start dragging my legs through the water. That's ok when I'm scuba diving and looking at stuff, not ok when I'm "racing". I'm also learning better rotation, but still not there, obviously. I did some catchup drills today, 2x25 on each side, and I found if I wait too long before I pull again, I'll just sink which for a moment caused a ton of panic. (hooray weakness.)

    Drills: I'm currently doing the following drills:
    1. Really bad catchups. I'm getting the coordination figured out though.
    2. Kickboard laps using the crawl kick and then the breaststroke kick
    3. Pull laps using a pullbuoy for both crawl and breaststroke

    I'd like to incorporate side stroking and something to better help my rotation.

    This morning's swim was: 2x50 for warmup, 4x25 flutter kick, 4x25 frog kick, 2x25 swim, 4x25 catchups, 2x25 pullbuoy breaststroke pulls, 2x25 pullbuoy crawl pulls, 1x50 swim. I didn't get a cooldown in as I had to get out quick to head to work.

    ironanimal - sprints, that's excellent, I plan to do those anyway for my running. :)

    lizsmith1976 - Yoga is a great idea, I need to get back into that. I think I may need to try adding in a good swimming sprint lap or two just to push the envelope.

    CaptApollo - That was a good description. I've never thought of freestyle being swum on your side. I always saw it as chest down. Good description for the recovery as well, I hadn't thought of it as moving my elbow, and the hand a bit along for the ride. Heh, yeah, I know to breathe. When I was a kid I liked to take a big breath and see how far I could swim just kicking on that one breath, I could get a ways back then, now, no way. I'm looking to figure out a good schedule for instruction, but I have identified a swim class tailored specifically for triathlons (which is why I'm swimming) that I want to check out on saturdays.

    bio01979 - Aren't masters clubs more for people who are swimming competitively outside of college age? When I turn my head to breathe, I do it only a little bit, because I'm trying to make the whole rotation come from my hips, so once I'm out in chop, if I can't get clear air from the rotation, I can still turn my head and get to another breath.

    ninerbuff - I do have two items that I think will help, paddles, and I have a chute, just haven't used them yet, I want to be less like a drunk narwhal before I bring them into the mix. I have been trying to do 12.5y and 25y "sprints" where I just pull and kick faster for the rest of the lap.


    Ok, that's everything I saw in the thread when I started this response. :)

    I think it will depend on each Club, but the ones I have seen have the option of training to compete but they also offer great structured swim workouts from experienced and trained coaches for people of all abilities and might even give you some tips on your stroke

    also, breathe when you need or want to but finding a pattern that you can maintain is good, for breast you generally should breathe every stroke

    I can't comment much on kicking because I barely kick at all in training lol for some reason my legs stay on the surface almost on their own lol

    it sounds like you are taking good steps and I think I'd you keep At it you will do well
  • No_Finish_Line
    No_Finish_Line Posts: 3,661 Member
    Competitive swimmer and later coach. haven't been in the water in years.

    so far the best advice i've seen is blow all your air out under water. tho i can see how that might be less then ideal in a crowded triathalon. good thing your in a pool.

    Let me first say that i'm really surprised at how many out of shape people tell me that they can or have swam a full mile plus at a time. Thats really impressive considering every 15-22 year old i've seen in lifeguard training had a very difficult time completeing a 500 yard swim, when a mile is more like 1650 yards.

    but anyway

    As alluded to before, technique is king in swimming, far more so then any other sport. its not the fastest or strongest that wins, its the most technically proficient swimmer that wins.

    unfortuantely, its nearly impossible to correct your stroke all on your own, but the drills will help, particularly the catch up because you can slow down and concentrate on what your doing.

    let me boil it down to 3 things i think you can work on that will help the most.

    1. breathe when its most comfortable for you. there a lot of schools of thought on how often to breathe. my coach wanted me to breathe as little as possible. Seems like olympic swimmers breath much more often then i was instructed to do. and all this is wrapped up in speed which is directly related to efficency but not the same thing. if breathing too often seems like more work, breath less. if you feel your not getting enough air, breath more. Holding your breath too long is just going to tire you out faster tho, and probably only has an honest place in short sprints, 200 or less. not everyone will think of a 200 as a sprint lol. i only breathe two one side. personally i think your better off being able to do it on both, but some olympic atheletes only breathe to one side so your probably ok there.

    2. if you sinking during the catch up stroke, your kick really sucks. lol, don't worry, mine does too. the kick has a lot more to do with moving through the water effeciently then you may realize. i think mistakes in kick technique are harder to correct then stroke becasue they are more sublte. it should involve your whole leg, hip to toe, in a whip like motion. learning the dolphin kick used in the butterfly may help because it emphasises the whip motion. honestly, after 8 years competitive swiming, thats the only kick i really do right. the more effeicent your kick, the far more efficent you move through the water. think about it, your constantly using your legs everyday, its not that they are weak when swimming, just not used properly. if you can harness the power and endurance of your legs, then your arms will tire far less quickly.

    3. this is specific to freestyle, and mentioned before. your body has to roll, like barrel roll. the centerline of your body (think nose to belly button) are the axis of rotation. when your body rolls, your shoulder comes up out of the water, and at that point you barely have to turn your head at all to breathe, and breathing is far more natural, comfortable, and efficient. if your not rolling your body, every time you take a breath its like your completely interupting your stroke and momementum through the water. there is an excellent way to practice this in a dry land drill. take a broom and lean it against your forehead. simulate front crawl with your arms but now try to roll your body so that your shoulders point infront of you... with out distrubing the broom.

    other then that, i was always taught to look at the wall not the floor of the pool, but thats more race mechanics. not sure how it effects efficency but the typically go hand in hand.

    everything should be on top of the water, especially for freestyle. if your torso or legs are pointing down, its only going to make things harder. try to keep it all on the surface.

    id concentrate more on what my hands should be doing in the water rather then out. out makes a differnce but i think what they do in is easier to pic up and gives you more when you get it.

    i'd concentrate on my kick. i'm willing to bet moving through the water with a kick board might be harder then swimming. try to improve that.

    I was actually quite surprised that as out of shape as I am now, I can still do similar practice speeds and can still swim over a km no problem

    but I swam competitively for 15 years, I may be fat and injured now but I was practically born in the water lol and swimming and efficient technique is as natural as breathing lol

    I have seen young fit people struggle because they were taught to swim the red Cross way and it isn't very efficient for fitness swimming, just emphasizing how important efficient technique is

    great tips on being more efficient :)

    thanks! just giving the basics.

    i'm impressed that you were able to get in the water and do that. it is for sure a testiment to your technique.

    the more technically sound you are, the more swiming is as effortless as walking.

    When i was coaching about ten years ago, the kids begged us to get in and i could BARELY DO A 200 without being completely exhausted.

    there was an awful lot of beer and cigarettes bettween my swimming carreer and then lol. and much of my game was strength and conditioning... yea, that can only get you so far lol.
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    1. breathe when its most comfortable for you.
    That's about where I am. I want to make sure it's smooth and not forced, but as I'm not paid to perfect my stroke, I'll do it when I need it.
    2. if you sinking during the catch up stroke, your kick really sucks. lol, don't worry, mine does too. the kick has a lot more to do with moving through the water effeciently then you may realize.
    My kick really sucks, doesn't give me a lot of propulsion either. However, I'm going to be doing more yards on a kickboard for that.
    3. this is specific to freestyle, and mentioned before. your body has to roll, like barrel roll. the centerline of your body (think nose to belly button) are the axis of rotation. when your body rolls, your shoulder comes up out of the water, and at that point you barely have to turn your head at all to breathe, and breathing is far more natural, comfortable, and efficient. if your not rolling your body, every time you take a breath its like your completely interupting your stroke and momementum through the water. there is an excellent way to practice this in a dry land drill. take a broom and lean it against your forehead. simulate front crawl with your arms but now try to roll your body so that your shoulders point infront of you... with out distrubing the broom.
    That's a good drill to try. I might get pizzed off like a ninja and break the broom, but I'll try it. I really need to work on that rotation.

    So yesterday when I swam I took a count of strokes needed to go 25 yards. Took 3 counts, and then averaged them for 25.3. Not very efficient. (First was 24, second was 27, third was 25.)

    Jammers v. tri shorts: I have both, I just wanted to swim in the tri shorts to see how it felt. I'm normally in jammers so I can make people feel uncomfortable.
  • No_Finish_Line
    No_Finish_Line Posts: 3,661 Member
    just be happy there is now an alternative to the speedo lol
  • dbmata
    dbmata Posts: 12,950 Member
    just be happy there is now an alternative to the speedo lol

    I have no problem wearing a speedo. :D

    I once played golf naked.
    and drunk.
    but mostly drunk and naked.

    The world should be happy there is an alternative to the speedo.

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