Oh crap! I think im becoming a Vegan!!

I have been cutting down and almost out most meats... and I do feel better....I agree with what was said above... we don't have to "be" anything... but if it makes us feel better...that is wonderful.

Less meat seems to be working for me....so that's my direction!! :happy:

Pamela June

well whey is at like 11 for leucine

And how much leucine do you need for muscle protein synthesis?

No-one is saying that dairy or meat does not give a better profile - just that you can get enough EAAs through a vegan diet.

well whey is at like 11 for leucine

And how much leucine do you need for muscle protein synthesis?

No-one is saying that dairy or meat does not give a better profile - just that you can get enough EAAs through a vegan diet.

They are talking more about optimal with leucine bolus now for muscle retention. It is still being studied and has yet to be confirmed on human subjects

I never thought I would, but within the last few weeks I started cutting way down on my meat / fish / poultry. I got to the point of going 3 - 4 days. Now I have started cutting out dairy this week, and actually I feel better than I have in quite a while!

My BP usually runs around 140/95 most of the time even with the meds I take, today I checked it - 111/65! I don't think I have ever seen my numbers that low, and of course I am losing weight too so cool.

So maybe I should really take up the Vegan thing?? Any thoughts?

I think you mean vegetarian.

vegetarian is the diet. vegan is the lifestyle (ie no leather, cosmetics, etc ... )

I've been a vegetarian for 42 years and a vegan for 2. "Protein" is a blanket term that is usually overused and misunderstood. What every vegetarian needs to understand are Amino Acids. You must know which foods, and which combinations of foods, have complete amino acid profiles. Vegetarians need to focus not so much on the quantity of the protein, but the quality of it, which is why a vegetarian diet should be extremely varied with a rotation of amino-acid rich foods.

But is the quality of protein in beans etc. equal to animal product protein? Is it as absorbable?

I'm asking only out of curiosity since I have given up on eating red meat since last year and I'm not a fan of fish either.

You need to make sure that you get your proteins from a variety of sources to ensure a complete amino acid profile, but if you do, it is fine.

Some vegan complete proteins are nutritional yeast and hemp seeds.

^Exactly! And, it's not necessary that you combined all those in one meal. The combination can be done over the course of the day through all your meals.

well its not even just protein or the complete amino profile. How much of the EAAs are in there? There really aren't that much.

There actually are in some - specially if you combine correctly. However, it is harder to do, especially when on a calorie restriction.

If you look at many, they are only 'lacking' in one of the EAAs to make them complete.

but how much?
its like saying there is fat in X. it only has .5g of fat

I am not going to go through every single plant based protein source. However, lets take one example.

Soybeans. They would be complete except for Methionine and Cycteine.

You need 42mg/kg/day of leucine per the RDA (which I admit probably understates optimal requirement, but for the sake of math I am going with it). So for a 150lb person, that would be 2,863mg.

Soybeans have 0.57g in 1 cup (97g). So you would need 5 cups = 487g = 395 calories. Not bad, even if you double it to account for the RDA being too low.


I am using soybeans as an example - there are many plant based sources that have more.


To make up for the methionine and cycteine, you can have oats and broccoli in your diet.

But is the quality of protein in beans etc. equal to animal product protein? Is it as absorbable?

I'm asking only out of curiosity since I have given up on eating red meat since last year and I'm not a fan of fish either.

You need to make sure that you get your proteins from a variety of sources to ensure a complete amino acid profile, but if you do, it is fine.

Some vegan complete proteins are nutritional yeast and hemp seeds.

^Exactly! And, it's not necessary that you combined all those in one meal. The combination can be done over the course of the day through all your meals.

well its not even just protein or the complete amino profile. How much of the EAAs are in there? There really aren't that much.

There actually are in some - specially if you combine correctly. However, it is harder to do, especially when on a calorie restriction.

If you look at many, they are only 'lacking' in one of the EAAs to make them complete.

but how much?
its like saying there is fat in X. it only has .5g of fat

I am not going to go through every single plant based protein source. However, lets take one example.

Soybeans. They would be complete except for Methionine and Cycteine.

You need 42mg/kg/day of leucine per the RDA (which I admit probably understates optimal requirement, but for the sake of math I am going with it). So for a 150lb person, that would be 2,863mg.

Soybeans have 0.57g in 1 cup (97g). So you would need 5 cups = 487g = 395 calories. Not bad, even if you double it to account for the RDA being too low.


I am using soybeans as an example - there are many plant based sources that have more.


To make up for the methionine and cycteine, you can have oats and broccoli in your diet.

Yea you are right. I keep forgetting this is not a bodybuilding forum tbh.

Sorry, you lost me on that one


ETA: to be clear, while I am a vegetarian, I do not advocate being a vegan or vegetarian for health or body composition reasons. Animal based proteins *are* better from the perspective of amino acid profiles and 'protein bang for your calorie buck'.

But is the quality of protein in beans etc. equal to animal product protein? Is it as absorbable?

I'm asking only out of curiosity since I have given up on eating red meat since last year and I'm not a fan of fish either.

You need to make sure that you get your proteins from a variety of sources to ensure a complete amino acid profile, but if you do, it is fine.

Some vegan complete proteins are nutritional yeast and hemp seeds.

^Exactly! And, it's not necessary that you combined all those in one meal. The combination can be done over the course of the day through all your meals.

well its not even just protein or the complete amino profile. How much of the EAAs are in there? There really aren't that much.

There actually are in some - specially if you combine correctly. However, it is harder to do, especially when on a calorie restriction.

If you look at many, they are only 'lacking' in one of the EAAs to make them complete.

but how much?
its like saying there is fat in X. it only has .5g of fat

I am not going to go through every single plant based protein source. However, lets take one example.

Soybeans. They would be complete except for Methionine and Cycteine.

You need 42mg/kg/day of leucine per the RDA (which I admit probably understates optimal requirement, but for the sake of math I am going with it). So for a 150lb person, that would be 2,863mg.

Soybeans have 0.57g in 1 cup (97g). So you would need 5 cups = 487g = 395 calories. Not bad, even if you double it to account for the RDA being too low.


I am using soybeans as an example - there are many plant based sources that have more.


To make up for the methionine and cycteine, you can have oats and broccoli in your diet.

Yea you are right. I keep forgetting this is not a bodybuilding forum tbh.

Sorry, you lost me on that one

I think I accidentally deleted the rest of it.

Leucine wouldn't be as big of a factor for the average person on a forum such as this. On a bodybuilding forum they focus more on the amino acid complex to optimize muscle building and retention of higher than average muscle.

Layne talks about maximization of MPS with leucine and I know it is still controversial.
he talked about 3g per meal which is not needed for the average person.

Since this isn't a full out bodybuilding forum it isn't necessary for the normal person to focus on such a thing.
http://agro-food-industry.teknoscienze.com/pdf/norton_AF2_09.PDF

I never thought I would, but within the last few weeks I started cutting way down on my meat / fish / poultry. I got to the point of going 3 - 4 days. Now I have started cutting out dairy this week, and actually I feel better than I have in quite a while!

My BP usually runs around 140/95 most of the time even with the meds I take, today I checked it - 111/65! I don't think I have ever seen my numbers that low, and of course I am losing weight too so cool.

So maybe I should really take up the Vegan thing?? Any thoughts?

I think you mean vegetarian.

vegetarian is the diet. vegan is the lifestyle (ie no leather, cosmetics, etc ... )

No. Vegetarian means no meat (seafood & poultry included guys) vegan means no dairy OR meat. SOME vegans go beyond that and do NO animal products at all (honey, leather etc).

Yeah that's why I stopped at vegetarian and didn't go full vegan. I already knew I was gonna miss grandma's leather sandwiches on picnic's and school field trips.

Oh crap is right. 500cc's of ribeye, stat.

I tried it for 6 months and I liked it, but never felt noticably better or lost any weight because of it (unlike the young lady in the office next to mine who became all willowy as a vegan). I actually gained several pounds, somehow, which was discouraging.... But it did kinda change my perception of ordinary ol' vegetarians, as in "You eat eggs and cheese and think you're not eating meat?" Animal products are, ahem, the PRODUCTS of ANIMALS.

But then my son came back from school and he's a meat-eater, so.

Sorry, put your complaint into the Vegetarian Society, the Oxford dictionary and others as to the definition of a vegetarian.

But is the quality of protein in beans etc. equal to animal product protein? Is it as absorbable?

I'm asking only out of curiosity since I have given up on eating red meat since last year and I'm not a fan of fish either.

You need to make sure that you get your proteins from a variety of sources to ensure a complete amino acid profile, but if you do, it is fine.

Some vegan complete proteins are nutritional yeast and hemp seeds.

^Exactly! And, it's not necessary that you combined all those in one meal. The combination can be done over the course of the day through all your meals.

well its not even just protein or the complete amino profile. How much of the EAAs are in there? There really aren't that much.

There actually are in some - specially if you combine correctly. However, it is harder to do, especially when on a calorie restriction.

If you look at many, they are only 'lacking' in one of the EAAs to make them complete.

but how much?
its like saying there is fat in X. it only has .5g of fat

I am not going to go through every single plant based protein source. However, lets take one example.

Soybeans. They would be complete except for Methionine and Cycteine.

You need 42mg/kg/day of leucine per the RDA (which I admit probably understates optimal requirement, but for the sake of math I am going with it). So for a 150lb person, that would be 2,863mg.

Soybeans have 0.57g in 1 cup (97g). So you would need 5 cups = 487g = 395 calories. Not bad, even if you double it to account for the RDA being too low.


I am using soybeans as an example - there are many plant based sources that have more.


To make up for the methionine and cycteine, you can have oats and broccoli in your diet.

Yea you are right. I keep forgetting this is not a bodybuilding forum tbh.

Sorry, you lost me on that one

I think I accidentally deleted the rest of it.

Leucine wouldn't be as big of a factor for the average person on a forum such as this. On a bodybuilding forum they focus more on the amino acid complex to optimize muscle building and retention of higher than average muscle.

Layne talks about maximization of MPS with leucine and I know it is still controversial.
he talked about 3g per meal which is not attainable for the average person.

Since this isn't a full out bodybuilding forum it isn't necessary for the normal person to focus on such a thing.
http://agro-food-industry.teknoscienze.com/pdf/norton_AF2_09.PDF

That 3g rings a bell. How could you not get that based on the math I just did? Obviously, it will be much harder, especially at a deficit, but it is do-able. However, as you say, it's less relevant for the more recreational lifter/dieter.

yea that's what I meant to get at. My mind has been all over the place. since that's like 500 calories for 3g of leucine. where if you consume 1 shake(as you know) its 120 fo 3g of leucine. Then after that you can pull a wider ranged diet from other sources.

I don't count leucine anymore to be honest. I got lazy ever since I swapped to casein and I dumped 200g of leucine in there and mixed it up. LOL

I tried it for 6 months and I liked it, but never felt noticably better or lost any weight because of it (unlike the young lady in the office next to mine who became all willowy as a vegan). I actually gained several pounds, somehow, which was discouraging.... But it did kinda change my perception of ordinary ol' vegetarians, as in "You eat eggs and cheese and think you're not eating meat?" Animal products are, ahem, the PRODUCTS of ANIMALS.

But then my son came back from school and he's a meat-eater, so.

Sorry, put your complaint into the Vegetarian Society, the Oxford dictionary and others as to the definition of a vegetarian.

but honestly I like conversations like this. I don't get this on the bb.com forums as much, this is because there are not as many opposing views. for example I just learned that vegans can still get optimal leucine from rice protein. even though bioavailability is 78. I don't think it is really that bad.
or a hypothyroidic person should avoid soy.

How will you get your protein?????

How will you get your protein?????

You don't have to eat meat to get protein. Protein is in everything we eat and our body does marvelous things to break it all down and create the protein we need. Also, there is an abundance of food that is not meat that is incredibly protein dense. These include legumes, such as chickpeas and kidney beans, tofu, quinoa, nuts and seeds, avocado, lentils, brown rice, barley, and spinach even. The list goes on and on.

I know I was being sarcastic with the OP! I was Vegan for four years! :-)

:flowerforyou:

Oh! That protein question is so tiresome as you are obviously aware! haha!

:happy:

:laugh:




]

LOL, i love this!!! I'm a vegetarian and I get so annoyed when people ask me that. Just because something doesn't have PARENTS doesn't mean it doesn't have protein...GAWD!

To point out..I know I will ask because there are many people that don't think about what they will need to supplement their protein. A lot of vegetarians I've come across admit to that mistake and will even ask this question themselves of new people to get them thinking about being aware of their complete nutritional needs.

Understandable. However (being devil's advocate), there are tons of people who eat meat but don't get "appropriate" amounts of protein (and get less than a lot of vegetarians/vegans because they tend to actually pay attention to it), but no one ever asks them about their protein intake.

gonna be honest
75%+ of my protein comes from shakes out of laziness I enjoy meat but I don't like cooking big amounts unless it is for other people.