Joint Supplements: R they worth it??

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ksy1969
ksy1969 Posts: 700 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
OK, I have taken some in the past but then read that if you are eating properly there is no need for them, so I stopped taking them. I would say that was about 90 days ago, maybe 120. Anyway, 2 weeks ago I had a half marathon and I was having a slight issue with my left knee prior to the run. It seemed fine during the run. I would get a twinge once in awhile nothing painful. Then the next day it seems everything went to pieces. My knee was painful, but the pain was manageable, nothing I hadn't had happen before that some good stretching and a small break couldn't fix.

What came next has been plaguing me and I am starting to wonder if this all goes back to me not taking a glucosamine/chongroiten supplement. I mean, it couldn't be the extra 150lbs I had carried around for so many years. My hip, opposite the bad knee had a major flare up. It kind of went back to normal but then the next weekend I ran 9 miles. Knee was fine but hip about put me in bed. I went to a chiropractor and had some adjustments. I thought it had gotten better but then yesterday I just did 3.1 miles and it flared up on me again last night. Not as bad as before, but still an annoyance.

What is everyone's experience with joint supplements? They are expensive and wondering if they are worth it, or is this just a result of me being over weight most of my life and my age.

Replies

  • aakaakaak
    aakaakaak Posts: 1,240 Member
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    IN for finding out what works, if anything. I've looked into it a little and have found very little evidence either way. Most studies I've seen are for osteoporosis, not exercise.
  • ksy1969
    ksy1969 Posts: 700 Member
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    Really, no one has an opinion on joint supplements like Glucosamine and Chondroiten?
  • leslie523
    leslie523 Posts: 2 Member
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    I think they help a little bit. Nothing fantastic. Worth the cost? Only you can say that. Try them and see for a month or so, but you do need to give it time to affect the joints.
  • aakaakaak
    aakaakaak Posts: 1,240 Member
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    Talked to a trainer guy at the gym who had issues in the past. He keeps himself on a steady regimen of them now and hasn't had any problems. This is purely anecdotal for one young guy, not to be construed as hard fact. It'd be really nice to get someone familiar with it to speak up. Is it another snake oil, or does it have real value?

    Edit: I did a bit of poking around that the third ingredient in some of the supplements, Methylsulfonylmethane (MSM) appears to have some benefit in osteoarthritis joint pain. You can simulate it with diet changes with onions, garlic and cruciferous vegetables and in protein-containing foods, including nuts, seeds, milk and eggs (whites and yolks).

    More from the wikipedia article:
    Small-scale studies of possible treatments with MSM have been conducted on both animals and humans. These studies of MSM have suggested some benefits, particularly for treatment of osteoarthritis. An extensive list of MSM and DSMO peer reviewed studies is included in S. Parcelli's article "Sulfur in Human Nutrition and Applications in Medicine", Parcelli, S., Alternative Medicine Review, 2002; 7(1):22-44.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane
  • timeasterday
    timeasterday Posts: 1,368 Member
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    I take Triple Flex every day and I think it helps a little. I only buy it when it's on sale at Costco. But the issues you are having could also be related to things like form and muscle balance. Read the book "Anatomy for Runners." I was having terrible hip pain but it actually had nothing to do with the actual hip joint. It was an imbalance between a very strong adductor muscle and a weaker core muscle. They happen to join up at the same spot by the hip joint and both pull at that spot when running.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    First you have to determine the cause of the pain. A soft tissue injury or overuse injury is best treated by a rehab program that addresses the specific biomechanical/muscular issues.

    For a degenerative condition, such as arthritis, joint supplements have been shown to have some efficacy at relieving pain.

    I have not seen any research that supports the use of joint supplements as a "preventive" measure--meaning taking them will not help a healthy joint avoid injury.
  • alecialudwickjones
    alecialudwickjones Posts: 64
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    I can't say for a fact one way or another, and you can always find this or that source saying whatever you want. I will say my husband was told it 'wouldn't be a bad idea' for him to take glucosamine, calcium, and a multi after he shattered his elbow years back. I take them as well, a simple it couldn't hurt mentality because carrying a huge amount of extra weight my entire life probably hasn't done any favors :-/
  • ksy1969
    ksy1969 Posts: 700 Member
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    Sweet!! Like the responses.

    I should actually go to my doctor and get an x-ray done to determine if I do have a some type of degenerative tissue in my hip. I just hate going to the doctor. Other than my physical, I avoid the doctor. Everything costs so much and my wife and kids already spend enough money on non physical related doctor visits.
  • WandaMM1
    WandaMM1 Posts: 132 Member
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    I take them, and have for about 2 years. Here's what I found. When I started taking them and while taking them, I wasn't sure it was helping. So, after having taken them consistently for about 6 months, I stopped taking them. I experienced a noticeable increase in joint pain when I stopped. I think the benefits are cumulative so you don't notice immediate improvement when you start taking them. However, I noticed fairly quickly (3-5 days) when I stopped taking them.

    I'll also say that I have an old knee injury (dislocated it in 2005) and arthritis has since begun to set in. So, I may be a prime candidate for seeing the benefits. Does it eliminate all joint pain? No. No amount of supplement will overcome the fact that I shredded my meniscus and had most of it removed. However, I do feel it is beneficial in managing my join pain.
  • 4_Lisa
    4_Lisa Posts: 362 Member
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    My Husband has had knee issues for YEARS. he has tried everything imaginable up to a year ago. My son has scoliosis and had to have rods put down his spine, because of the time laid up in hospital (complications) and the time it took for him to get his mobility back, his hips were getting sore. His Orthopedic Surgeon recommended we put him on Joint Ease (for osteoarthritis) It helped him with his hips. My husband had also started taking them for his knees around the same time, a year later he no longer has to wear a knee brace when he runs.

    So Yeah, I think they work. I don't think these days we are able to eat EVERYTHING we possibly need to eat for full nutrition. So I am all for supplements, as long as they are supplements and not the only source.
  • etoiles_argentees
    etoiles_argentees Posts: 2,827 Member
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    You might find something useful in this post. :smile:
    Knee Osteoarthritis: Thumbs Down for Acupuncture and Glucosamine

    Posted by Harriet Hall on June 11, 2013 (35 Comments)


    Osteoarthritis is the “wear and tear” kind of arthritis that many of us develop as we get older. Cartilage becomes less resilient with age, collagen can degenerate, and inflammation and new bone outgrowths (osteophytes) can occur. This leads to pain, crepitus (Rice Krispie type crackling noises with movement), swelling and fluid accumulation in the joints (effusion), and can severely limit activity for some patients.

    Since knee osteoarthritis is such a ubiquitous annoyance, home remedies and CAM offerings abound. Previously we have covered a number of CAM options on this blog, including glucosamine, acupuncture, and several others. The American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) has just issued a 1200 page report evaluating the evidence for various treatments for knee osteoarthritis short of total knee replacement surgery. A 13 page summary is available online. They have done the heavy lifting for us, reviewing all the available scientific studies for evidence of effectiveness. Here’s what the science says: (I’ve highlighted the ones where the evidence is strong.)

    Exercise – strong evidence for effectiveness

    Weight loss – moderate evidence for

    Acupuncture – strong evidence against

    Physical agents (TENS, ultrasound, etc.) – inconclusive

    Manual therapy (chiropractic, massage) – inconclusive

    Valgus-directing force brace – inconclusive

    Lateral wedge insoles – moderate evidence against

    Glucosamine and chondroitin – strong evidence against

    NSAIDs – strong evidence for

    Acetaminophen, opioids, pain patches – inconclusive (this is particularly interesting since acetaminophen is the standard first-choice drug)

    Intraarticular corticosteroid injections – inconclusive

    Hyaluronic acid injections – strong evidence against (and if injections are ineffective, those oral diet supplements certainly don’t have a chance)

    Growth factor injections and/or platelet-rich plasma – inconclusive

    Needle lavage – moderate evidence against

    Arthroscopy with lavage and debridement – strong evidence against

    Partial meniscectomy in osteoarthritis patients with torn meniscus – inconclusive

    Valgus-producing proximal tibial osteotomy – limited evidence

    Free-floating interpositional device – no evidence; consensus against

    They apparently didn’t think it was worthwhile even mentioning such things as copper bracelets, magnets, prayer, or supplements like boswellia. Or homeopathy!

    Naturopaths and other critics of mainstream medicine claim that MDs don’t recommend lifestyle measures like exercise and weight loss, but here is a mainstream medical organization that clearly does, and even puts them first on its list. Critics who claim doctors are just out to make money, take note: if they were the evil money-grubbers some make them out to be, wouldn’t these surgeons want to promote income-generating arthroscopic lavage and debridement? Wouldn’t they want to suppress information about conservative treatments and keep patients in pain until they were desperate enough to consent to expensive joint replacement surgery? Gee, do you suppose maybe they really are just trying to do what’s best for their patients?

    I was glad to see that the AAOS reached the same conclusions we did on SBM regarding acupuncture and glucosamine, but I wasn’t surprised. After all, we are looking at the same published evidence. Unbiased scientific minds think alike. Recommendations on other websites like WebMD and the Mayo Clinic still favor acupuncture and glucosamine. It will be interesting to see if they modify their websites in response to the AAOS report. I’m not holding my breath.

    I was curious: if AAOS is an American Academy, why do they spell Orthopaedic the British way? I looked it up: Orthopaedic is the correct medical spelling! So thanks to the AAOS, I learned something about spelling as well as about knees.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/knee-osteoarthritis-thumbs-down-for-acupuncture-and-glucosamine/
  • yallcallmedeb
    yallcallmedeb Posts: 294
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    I use them and feel that they do make a noticeable difference. I just bought some at Sam's Club and they were $11 for a 90-180 day supply (I don't recall if it was 180 days or 180 tablets which would be a 90 day supply).
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Options
    You might find something useful in this post. :smile:
    Knee Osteoarthritis: Thumbs Down for Acupuncture and Glucosamine

    Posted by Harriet Hall on June 11, 2013 (35 Comments)


    Osteoarthritis is the “wear and tear” kind of arthritis that many of us develop as we get older. Cartilage becomes less resilient with age, collagen can degenerate, and inflammation and new bone outgrowths (osteophytes) can occur. This leads to pain, crepitus (Rice Krispie type crackling noises with movement), swelling and fluid accumulation in the joints (effusion), and can severely limit activity for some patients.

    Since knee osteoarthritis is such a ubiquitous annoyance, home remedies and CAM offerings abound. Previously we have covered a number of CAM options on this blog, including glucosamine, acupuncture, and several others. The American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) has just issued a 1200 page report evaluating the evidence for various treatments for knee osteoarthritis short of total knee replacement surgery. A 13 page summary is available online. They have done the heavy lifting for us, reviewing all the available scientific studies for evidence of effectiveness. Here’s what the science says: (I’ve highlighted the ones where the evidence is strong.)

    Exercise – strong evidence for effectiveness

    Weight loss – moderate evidence for

    Acupuncture – strong evidence against

    Physical agents (TENS, ultrasound, etc.) – inconclusive

    Manual therapy (chiropractic, massage) – inconclusive

    Valgus-directing force brace – inconclusive

    Lateral wedge insoles – moderate evidence against

    Glucosamine and chondroitin – strong evidence against

    NSAIDs – strong evidence for

    Acetaminophen, opioids, pain patches – inconclusive (this is particularly interesting since acetaminophen is the standard first-choice drug)

    Intraarticular corticosteroid injections – inconclusive

    Hyaluronic acid injections – strong evidence against (and if injections are ineffective, those oral diet supplements certainly don’t have a chance)

    Growth factor injections and/or platelet-rich plasma – inconclusive

    Needle lavage – moderate evidence against

    Arthroscopy with lavage and debridement – strong evidence against

    Partial meniscectomy in osteoarthritis patients with torn meniscus – inconclusive

    Valgus-producing proximal tibial osteotomy – limited evidence

    Free-floating interpositional device – no evidence; consensus against

    They apparently didn’t think it was worthwhile even mentioning such things as copper bracelets, magnets, prayer, or supplements like boswellia. Or homeopathy!

    Naturopaths and other critics of mainstream medicine claim that MDs don’t recommend lifestyle measures like exercise and weight loss, but here is a mainstream medical organization that clearly does, and even puts them first on its list. Critics who claim doctors are just out to make money, take note: if they were the evil money-grubbers some make them out to be, wouldn’t these surgeons want to promote income-generating arthroscopic lavage and debridement? Wouldn’t they want to suppress information about conservative treatments and keep patients in pain until they were desperate enough to consent to expensive joint replacement surgery? Gee, do you suppose maybe they really are just trying to do what’s best for their patients?

    I was glad to see that the AAOS reached the same conclusions we did on SBM regarding acupuncture and glucosamine, but I wasn’t surprised. After all, we are looking at the same published evidence. Unbiased scientific minds think alike. Recommendations on other websites like WebMD and the Mayo Clinic still favor acupuncture and glucosamine. It will be interesting to see if they modify their websites in response to the AAOS report. I’m not holding my breath.

    I was curious: if AAOS is an American Academy, why do they spell Orthopaedic the British way? I looked it up: Orthopaedic is the correct medical spelling! So thanks to the AAOS, I learned something about spelling as well as about knees.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/knee-osteoarthritis-thumbs-down-for-acupuncture-and-glucosamine/

    Thanks. I had seen some studies suggesting some efficacy for glucosamine, but this looks more in depth. OTOH this is a report written by surgeons, so it is not completely free of bias.
  • aakaakaak
    aakaakaak Posts: 1,240 Member
    Options
    You might find something useful in this post. :smile:
    Knee Osteoarthritis: Thumbs Down for Acupuncture and Glucosamine

    Posted by Harriet Hall on June 11, 2013 (35 Comments)


    Osteoarthritis is the “wear and tear” kind of arthritis that many of us develop as we get older. Cartilage becomes less resilient with age, collagen can degenerate, and inflammation and new bone outgrowths (osteophytes) can occur. This leads to pain, crepitus (Rice Krispie type crackling noises with movement), swelling and fluid accumulation in the joints (effusion), and can severely limit activity for some patients.

    Since knee osteoarthritis is such a ubiquitous annoyance, home remedies and CAM offerings abound. Previously we have covered a number of CAM options on this blog, including glucosamine, acupuncture, and several others. The American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) has just issued a 1200 page report evaluating the evidence for various treatments for knee osteoarthritis short of total knee replacement surgery. A 13 page summary is available online. They have done the heavy lifting for us, reviewing all the available scientific studies for evidence of effectiveness. Here’s what the science says: (I’ve highlighted the ones where the evidence is strong.)

    Exercise – strong evidence for effectiveness

    Weight loss – moderate evidence for

    Acupuncture – strong evidence against

    Physical agents (TENS, ultrasound, etc.) – inconclusive

    Manual therapy (chiropractic, massage) – inconclusive

    Valgus-directing force brace – inconclusive

    Lateral wedge insoles – moderate evidence against

    Glucosamine and chondroitin – strong evidence against

    NSAIDs – strong evidence for

    Acetaminophen, opioids, pain patches – inconclusive (this is particularly interesting since acetaminophen is the standard first-choice drug)

    Intraarticular corticosteroid injections – inconclusive

    Hyaluronic acid injections – strong evidence against (and if injections are ineffective, those oral diet supplements certainly don’t have a chance)

    Growth factor injections and/or platelet-rich plasma – inconclusive

    Needle lavage – moderate evidence against

    Arthroscopy with lavage and debridement – strong evidence against

    Partial meniscectomy in osteoarthritis patients with torn meniscus – inconclusive

    Valgus-producing proximal tibial osteotomy – limited evidence

    Free-floating interpositional device – no evidence; consensus against

    They apparently didn’t think it was worthwhile even mentioning such things as copper bracelets, magnets, prayer, or supplements like boswellia. Or homeopathy!

    Naturopaths and other critics of mainstream medicine claim that MDs don’t recommend lifestyle measures like exercise and weight loss, but here is a mainstream medical organization that clearly does, and even puts them first on its list. Critics who claim doctors are just out to make money, take note: if they were the evil money-grubbers some make them out to be, wouldn’t these surgeons want to promote income-generating arthroscopic lavage and debridement? Wouldn’t they want to suppress information about conservative treatments and keep patients in pain until they were desperate enough to consent to expensive joint replacement surgery? Gee, do you suppose maybe they really are just trying to do what’s best for their patients?

    I was glad to see that the AAOS reached the same conclusions we did on SBM regarding acupuncture and glucosamine, but I wasn’t surprised. After all, we are looking at the same published evidence. Unbiased scientific minds think alike. Recommendations on other websites like WebMD and the Mayo Clinic still favor acupuncture and glucosamine. It will be interesting to see if they modify their websites in response to the AAOS report. I’m not holding my breath.

    I was curious: if AAOS is an American Academy, why do they spell Orthopaedic the British way? I looked it up: Orthopaedic is the correct medical spelling! So thanks to the AAOS, I learned something about spelling as well as about knees.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/knee-osteoarthritis-thumbs-down-for-acupuncture-and-glucosamine/

    Neat. So they say exercise, weight loss and aspirin work.
  • doriharvey
    doriharvey Posts: 89 Member
    Options
    Above - - - - very helpful post, thanks for sharing!
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,704 Member
    Options
    You might find something useful in this post. :smile:
    Knee Osteoarthritis: Thumbs Down for Acupuncture and Glucosamine

    Posted by Harriet Hall on June 11, 2013 (35 Comments)


    Osteoarthritis is the “wear and tear” kind of arthritis that many of us develop as we get older. Cartilage becomes less resilient with age, collagen can degenerate, and inflammation and new bone outgrowths (osteophytes) can occur. This leads to pain, crepitus (Rice Krispie type crackling noises with movement), swelling and fluid accumulation in the joints (effusion), and can severely limit activity for some patients.

    Since knee osteoarthritis is such a ubiquitous annoyance, home remedies and CAM offerings abound. Previously we have covered a number of CAM options on this blog, including glucosamine, acupuncture, and several others. The American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons (AAOS) has just issued a 1200 page report evaluating the evidence for various treatments for knee osteoarthritis short of total knee replacement surgery. A 13 page summary is available online. They have done the heavy lifting for us, reviewing all the available scientific studies for evidence of effectiveness. Here’s what the science says: (I’ve highlighted the ones where the evidence is strong.)

    Exercise – strong evidence for effectiveness

    Weight loss – moderate evidence for

    Acupuncture – strong evidence against

    Physical agents (TENS, ultrasound, etc.) – inconclusive

    Manual therapy (chiropractic, massage) – inconclusive

    Valgus-directing force brace – inconclusive

    Lateral wedge insoles – moderate evidence against

    Glucosamine and chondroitin – strong evidence against

    NSAIDs – strong evidence for

    Acetaminophen, opioids, pain patches – inconclusive (this is particularly interesting since acetaminophen is the standard first-choice drug)

    Intraarticular corticosteroid injections – inconclusive

    Hyaluronic acid injections – strong evidence against (and if injections are ineffective, those oral diet supplements certainly don’t have a chance)

    Growth factor injections and/or platelet-rich plasma – inconclusive

    Needle lavage – moderate evidence against

    Arthroscopy with lavage and debridement – strong evidence against

    Partial meniscectomy in osteoarthritis patients with torn meniscus – inconclusive

    Valgus-producing proximal tibial osteotomy – limited evidence

    Free-floating interpositional device – no evidence; consensus against

    They apparently didn’t think it was worthwhile even mentioning such things as copper bracelets, magnets, prayer, or supplements like boswellia. Or homeopathy!

    Naturopaths and other critics of mainstream medicine claim that MDs don’t recommend lifestyle measures like exercise and weight loss, but here is a mainstream medical organization that clearly does, and even puts them first on its list. Critics who claim doctors are just out to make money, take note: if they were the evil money-grubbers some make them out to be, wouldn’t these surgeons want to promote income-generating arthroscopic lavage and debridement? Wouldn’t they want to suppress information about conservative treatments and keep patients in pain until they were desperate enough to consent to expensive joint replacement surgery? Gee, do you suppose maybe they really are just trying to do what’s best for their patients?

    I was glad to see that the AAOS reached the same conclusions we did on SBM regarding acupuncture and glucosamine, but I wasn’t surprised. After all, we are looking at the same published evidence. Unbiased scientific minds think alike. Recommendations on other websites like WebMD and the Mayo Clinic still favor acupuncture and glucosamine. It will be interesting to see if they modify their websites in response to the AAOS report. I’m not holding my breath.

    I was curious: if AAOS is an American Academy, why do they spell Orthopaedic the British way? I looked it up: Orthopaedic is the correct medical spelling! So thanks to the AAOS, I learned something about spelling as well as about knees.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/knee-osteoarthritis-thumbs-down-for-acupuncture-and-glucosamine/
    THIS. I've personally looked into them and go with science on this. Evidence counts, not anecdotes especially when it comes to spending money on one's health.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal/Group FitnessTrainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • mikeatmichael
    mikeatmichael Posts: 92 Member
    Options
    I suspect that much of the joint pain people encounter is from connective tissue injury. Exercise can help build and condition the ligaments and tendons so long slow runs and strength training may help build them up over time. Overdoing it is going to hurt though. I was always in pain for a couple days after a 13 mile run when I ran cross country. In high school. When I weighed 135 lbs. And ran every day. Now I'm gradually building up distance but I don't really care how far I go (or how fast for that matter), its more important to go regularly.

    What works for me best now is to combine regular exercise with stretching. I don't stretch before or after I run and I don't warm up. My cool down is walking a couple hundred yards. But I do spend about ten minutes stretching every morning and every evening. The main benefits from stretching seem to come from consistency. Its not about how hard you do it but rather about how often you do it. I spend about half the time on my hips and lower back and the rest on my legs. Small improvements are cumulative.

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