Calories on menus - Government Nannying?
sabified
Posts: 1,035 Member
Hey everyone,
So Toronto Public Health board has a current push to provide calorie and sodium info on menu lists. They've made this trendy lil site to help promote their cause:
http://www.savvydiner.ca/
I'm totally for this because I feel that it would allow us to make better decisions at the point of purchase (therefore allowing us to take better control of our diets/lives), but after going through the site and reading some local public opinions on this as well, apparently there's a healthy stock of people who think this is another form of the government control and babysitting.
I feel asking this on MFP is kind of preaching to the choir, but I've seen some great debates on here so wondering what your opinions are.
Should restaurants be forced to provide their calorie/sodium information in such a highly visible manner, or is this another case of the government sticking their nose where it doesn't belong?
So Toronto Public Health board has a current push to provide calorie and sodium info on menu lists. They've made this trendy lil site to help promote their cause:
http://www.savvydiner.ca/
I'm totally for this because I feel that it would allow us to make better decisions at the point of purchase (therefore allowing us to take better control of our diets/lives), but after going through the site and reading some local public opinions on this as well, apparently there's a healthy stock of people who think this is another form of the government control and babysitting.
I feel asking this on MFP is kind of preaching to the choir, but I've seen some great debates on here so wondering what your opinions are.
Should restaurants be forced to provide their calorie/sodium information in such a highly visible manner, or is this another case of the government sticking their nose where it doesn't belong?
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Replies
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I don't think it's government interference... I think of it as the logical extension of nutritional information on packaged foods.
Where I live, large chain restaurants (McDonalds, Friday's, etc.) have to list calorie information on their menus. I find it very helpful in watching what I am eating (and I even did before starting on MFP). I've actually become so used to it that I miss it when I am traveling.
It would be nice, however, if restaurants would do this for all menu items voluntarily. I've noticed that McDonald's lists calories on their menus more often than not, and I read that Starbucks was going to start doing the same.0 -
Should restaurants be forced? No.
Should restaurants choose to provide? Up to them, but if their customers want it, then yes.
Should the data be trusted? Ask anyone who has worked in a restaurant kitchen, NO. Keep in mind, your average oil ladle is a 2oz ladle... Really think that 450 calorie three egg scramble is really *just* 450 cals? :laugh:0 -
Technology has advanced to the point where providing nutritional information is not a burden, even for small businesses.0
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Unless the restaurant is serving food that has been pre-packaged to guarantee that there are exactly 62.5 mls of sauce on that precisely 112g piece of meat, et al, there will be a certain margin of error in figuring out the calories for a particular dish. What if an ingredient has to be substituted? Change in supplier?
Any number of variables will affect the final numbers and before you can say 'lawyer' there would be a court case filing for damages based on alleged misrepresentation of nutritional information on the part of the restauranteur...
As they say, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.0 -
Should restaurants be forced? No.
Should restaurants choose to provide? Up to them, but if their customers want it, then yes.
Should the data be trusted? Ask anyone who has worked in a restaurant kitchen, NO. Keep in mind, your average oil ladle is a 2oz ladle... Really think that 450 calorie three egg scramble is really *just* 450 cals? :laugh:
But what about situations where customers are clearly asking for it but still not being provided? Nando's is one that comes to mind which I have personal experience with. I've emailed them to ask for their nutritional info and they just completely ignored me. I got an auto response saying they got my message but never a reply from -gasp- an actual human.
I know there's a difference between 1 person asking a huge chain vs. many, but I'm sure I'm not the only one, and this can't be the only restaurant this has happened at.
Also, what are your opinions on restaurants who *don't* provide nutritional info?
I agree with JW that it's not hard for companies to figure this out and I basically make my fast food/eating out choices with the belief that if a restaurant isn't willing to share the caloric info it must mean they've got something to hide. (though DB and Carol- I see your point that it's up to how the food at the individual location is made as well... but does this margin of error mean they shouldn't have to?)0 -
It sure is convenient when they do provide the information.
(Though I've seen studies that only about 15% of people actually use said information even when it is posted).
However, even with that I have NO problems with there being regulations saying that they must provide access to information as to what is in food.
I think we have the RIGHT to know what's in the food that we eat. We're buying it. Why are people so willing to give corporations more rights than ourselves, as individuals? As an individual I deserve to know what's in what I pay for.
And since they basically have to be regulated into providing such information -- write rules requiring it.
We have to meet building codes requiring that we build structurally safe buildings (and have done so since the dawn of civilization, way back with Hammurabi). We have traffic laws so that we can travel with some limited order and generally understood ways of driving. Plus, general safety. We have water regulations so that we have safe drinking water, etc.
We have to have some rules in order function as an equitable society, where people have equal rights (meaning both sides have rights in this equation. The other side's doesn't trump mine) if we are to co-exist.
We have the right to know what's in the food we buy.
If we really want no regulations, go live in Somalia. See how well that works for general life safety and well being.0 -
I absolutely believe its government nannying. We as consumers can choose not to go to a restaurant that isn't forthright with its nutritional information. Instead we can choose to give our patronage to restaurants that has nutritional transparency. The movement should be consumer driven.0
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I think that it would be nice to have this information, as many times you have no idea what you are eating. My wife has SEVERE gluten issues (though not diagnosed celiac) and having an ingredients list is more helpful than anything to us, and many times we've been able to get that information when we ask (we've had to stop eating at quite a few places because literally everything on their menus contain wheat).
Being armed with more information is always better and having even rough estimates of calories, carbs, fats, protein would be nice as well.
That being said I'm not a big fan of government interference in anything, and many times these things get out of control, such as the cost to have the items tested for a nutritional breakdown (which I've read many government agencies require, vs being able to guess-timate based on the ingredients).
If the government can put in place guidelines to have this happen, and there is voluntary participation I'm all for it. It will be the consumers that will drive this and when places see that their competition is doing it and getting positive press they will likely follow suit.0 -
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If the government can put in place guidelines to have this happen, and there is voluntary participation I'm all for it.
If the government gets involved my guess is that there will be no "voluntary" participation. It will probably be mandated and a fine associated with not having the information published on the menu.
While I am all for this and I personally have made different choices based on what was posted for the calories (true or not) I don't think it's something that restaurants should be forced to do nor do I think it's something the government should be involved in. My issue with government involvement is that they will go too far and not only make the restaurant post the calories but then mandate how many calories they're allowed to have in their food? Regulate how much fat they can have in dishes?0 -
they can't limit your intake, but I think the knowledge would help many people make better choices.0
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I'm not a fan of the government telling me what I can and cannot eat (i.e.- Mayor Bloomberg and his soda and sodium crusade), but I do think that adding the calorie count is informational and helps people make a more informed decision. If you still want a burger after seeing all of the calories it may contain, then that is your prerogative. What has shocked me is the calories in salads. Some salads even surpass calories in a burger.0
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A lot of places in the UK already do this, from coffee shops (Starbucks, Costa* etc.) to pub chains (JD Wetherspoons etc.), and it's listed alongside whether a meal is gluten free, vegetarian/vegan, or features a veg*n option. I don't consider it to be nannying in the slightest, I think it's a natural response to a growing interest and desire from consumers to know what they're eating.
*speaking of, it always horrifies me when I see the plaque in front of the cake slices with the calorie count on them in Costa.0 -
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And, don't get me started on portions. But, I hope after the dust settles on calories, I do hope all restaurants are forced to publish portion sizes. In other words, the meal you are about to eat serves 3. That kind of thing. I think it would also help a lot. Total calories is one small part of the battle. In the USA, the larger problem, IMO, is portion size.
Isn't that the truth.
Smartphones are a wonder. When at Nothing but Noodles, one day I googled the nutritional info. Not only did I discover that one of the dishes packed a whopping 900 calories per serving, I realized that the single BOWL they served was listed as having 2.5 'servings' in it, so actually the dish they served was 2250 calories! In one bowl.
Because it comes in one bowl, it leads you to think that the bowl they served was 900 calories. (Which in itself was a great deal). But looking at the nutritional info, it made clear that rather than a huge serving of 900 calories, the bowl on your tray it is in fact it's 2250 calories! (They have better options available. The Asian Salad or even the lettuce wraps are actually quite reasonable. And knowing the difference between the calories in a serving of lettuce wraps versus the 2250 calorie "serving" of another dish is extremely useful information to have. Just think, by scarfing down a single bowl of one dish in a chain restaurant, it's possible to exceed many people's entire daily allowance of calories and then some.)0 -
If the government can put in place guidelines to have this happen, and there is voluntary participation I'm all for it.
If the government gets involved my guess is that there will be no "voluntary" participation. It will probably be mandated and a fine associated with not having the information published on the menu.
While I am all for this and I personally have made different choices based on what was posted for the calories (true or not) I don't think it's something that restaurants should be forced to do nor do I think it's something the government should be involved in. My issue with government involvement is that they will go too far and not only make the restaurant post the calories but then mandate how many calories they're allowed to have in their food? Regulate how much fat they can have in dishes?
I agree with you 100%, government always has a way of getting too involved and controlling everything. We've seen in European nations with their fat taxes and such, and the US is getting to that point in some areas. I suppose I should have qualified my remarks with "In a fantasy land where the government would set up a standard labeling process and then step back completely".0 -
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I think it's a logical next step from labeling packaged foods we get at the grocery store. We eat out a lot (almost every night, lol) and it would certainly be very helpful!0
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I believe that consumers should be informed of what is going into their bodies. And with so many drive thrus (Starbucks? come on), putting information on the menu seems logical. And it helps people find what they need instead of searching through paper. For someone with poor eyesight the menu might be easier to see.
I actually think that items from the store need to have more information available. Did you guys know that some companies put caffeine in frozen waffles? That might have been nice to know before ate one before bed. There is no recommended allowance, but shouldn't we have the information to make individual choices? And how about genetically modified food? Would it be so difficult and expensive for companies to put a stamp on the package? A lot vegetable oils and soy products use hexane in the processing. That doesn't go on the ingredient list, but I would like to know which brands do or don't use that and other unnatural chemicals in my food. That way I could make my own, individual food choices fully informed. How can I take responsibility for my diet and health otherwise?
I am all for giving consumers as much information as possibly. Sadly that will only happen with government involvement.0 -
no, they should not be forced to provide that information. As a business owner, it is each individual owners responsibility to determine what they will or will not post.
Besides, you do not get fat from not knowing what the calorie count is...you get fat from eating too many calories...
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?0 -
I don't think businesses should be FORCED to put that stuff on their menu....however, I do think nutritional values for chain restaurants should be accessible for the people who want it, if that's on a menu, a website, a book at the front with a "ask your server for nutritional values" sticker on the front window...I think its only fair for it to be provided somewhere for those who do want to know.
Can you imagine a high end restaurant with a really formal menu having to put 734cal. beside there menu items? I think that it takes away from me wanting to go somewhere for something fancy, but that's just my thought...I do think info should be available somewhere, I just don't think the menu is always the best place.0 -
no, they should not be forced to provide that information. As a business owner, it is each individual owners responsibility to determine what they will or will not post.
Besides, you do not get fat from not knowing what the calorie count is...you get fat from eating too many calories...
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
How can I take personal responsibility if I don't have complete information? How can I not eat too many calories if I don't know how many there are? The only way would be to prepare all my food at home, so you just lost a customer.
As for being forced...it's a bit sad in my opinion that government involvement is necessary.0 -
they can't limit your intake, but I think the knowledge would help many people make better choices.
I agree with this poster. Our government isn't tell you what you can and cannot order. It's helping the consumer make informed decisions.0 -
they can't limit your intake, but I think the knowledge would help many people make better choices.
I agree with this poster. Our government isn't tell you what you can and cannot order. It's helping the consumer make informed decisions.
Well said!0 -
Put all the nutritional information out there, then it's up to the individual to decide what to do with it.
[Of course, ideally each individual would have the education needed to make their own choices.]0 -
I don't think it's government interference... I think of it as the logical extension of nutritional information on packaged foods.
Where I live, large chain restaurants (McDonalds, Friday's, etc.) have to list calorie information on their menus. I find it very helpful in watching what I am eating (and I even did before starting on MFP). I've actually become so used to it that I miss it when I am traveling.
It would be nice, however, if restaurants would do this for all menu items voluntarily. I've noticed that McDonald's lists calories on their menus more often than not, and I read that Starbucks was going to start doing the same.
Here a fast-food restaurant need only make the information available. Most have it in a pamphlet... if the worker can find a copy you are welcome to it. A few have it posted on the wall in such a place that one must lean fully across the counter to read the @#$%^ size 8 font.
To my knowledge, slow-food restaurants are not required to provide the info, but I have not encountered one yet that wasn't willing to help a customer out, short of divulging secrets, of course.
Yes, it is government interference, but no more invasive IMHO than the labels on food packages. I am a consumer. I want to make informed choices. If I choose unwisely, no one is going to snatch that super-sized Big Mac combo meal from my hands any faster than a box of Twinkies from my shopping cart. I do feel the day is coming when there will be other financial repercussions for my food choices, in the form of increased insurance/medical costs as compared to the same policy/service for someone deemed healthier by the government's standards. (I believe this has been argued ad nauseum on another thread.)0 -
I love having the information readily available, and when it's on the menu, it makes things a lot easier for me.
However, I don't think this is something the government should force businesses to do. It's not government's place (IMO). This is something a free market could sort out on its own. If enough people demanded it and stopped buying from restaurants that didn't do it, it would take care of itself.0 -
If you do not like what a restaurant is doing then don't spend money at said restaurant. That is the beauty of the free market, you get to vote with your dollars. Instead of going to that establishment, spend your money at one that posts their nutritional information ...Should restaurants be forced? No.
Should restaurants choose to provide? Up to them, but if their customers want it, then yes.
Should the data be trusted? Ask anyone who has worked in a restaurant kitchen, NO. Keep in mind, your average oil ladle is a 2oz ladle... Really think that 450 calorie three egg scramble is really *just* 450 cals? :laugh:
But what about situations where customers are clearly asking for it but still not being provided? Nando's is one that comes to mind which I have personal experience with. I've emailed them to ask for their nutritional info and they just completely ignored me. I got an auto response saying they got my message but never a reply from -gasp- an actual human.0 -
no, they should not be forced to provide that information. As a business owner, it is each individual owners responsibility to determine what they will or will not post.
Besides, you do not get fat from not knowing what the calorie count is...you get fat from eating too many calories...
Whatever happened to personal responsibility?
And yet if there's no nutritional information available, how is one supposed to know? Magic? A psychic connection with the chef in the kitchen? There's very little chance of the calorie/nutritional information being entirely accurate, but it'll (and does, for those living in places where restaurants and cafés already do this) serve as a guideline from which one can make an informed decision.
Ignorance does a lot to further health problems, whether it's wilful or otherwise. Wilful ignorance is inexcusable, I think a majority of people can agree with that. Ergo, if the information is there, it's up to the individual to use it as and if they so desire.
BHAM: there's your personal responsibility.0 -
I think it's fantastic. But I also believe information/knowledge is power.
If people want to be kept in the dark, then just don't look at the numbers.0
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