Clarity on simultaneous fat loss and muscle build
JuroNemo14
Posts: 101 Member
Hey guys and gals,
I have been losing weight for the past 6 months now, and I like the way it has been going, but I haven't really been focusing on exercising as much as counting calories (which has been working sublime). However, due to little exercise, my arms have become very skinny and crampy. And there is still some fat left to lose for me (moobs, love handles, and some huge thighs. I'm a 19 y.o dude btw).
So, I have been thrown around articles by countless forums, but call me stupid, it has not given me the answer I have been seeking. You see, I want to lose this fat, and build them muscles too. I know it's impossible to do both at the same time, losing moobs and gain a 'batman-chest'.
According to one article on Bodybuilding.com, I need to focus my first month or so, on eating more calories than I burn(how much then), while exercising. And once I have gained enough (what is enough then?), I should start the diet, and eat less than I burn away in a day.
My question is: is the above plan legit, and where exactly can I figure out how much weight I should gain, how many calories I should eat in a day, and when I need to start the diet then?
My body looks like this at the moment: http://imgur.com/1ngr18K
PS: I used to follow the MFP thingy religiously, meaning that I ate at a deficit of about 500 calories earlier. I don't suppose this will work on muscle building, so I need to know exactly if I am to eat more calories then(like, 1000 more than I used to. A surplus).
I have been losing weight for the past 6 months now, and I like the way it has been going, but I haven't really been focusing on exercising as much as counting calories (which has been working sublime). However, due to little exercise, my arms have become very skinny and crampy. And there is still some fat left to lose for me (moobs, love handles, and some huge thighs. I'm a 19 y.o dude btw).
So, I have been thrown around articles by countless forums, but call me stupid, it has not given me the answer I have been seeking. You see, I want to lose this fat, and build them muscles too. I know it's impossible to do both at the same time, losing moobs and gain a 'batman-chest'.
According to one article on Bodybuilding.com, I need to focus my first month or so, on eating more calories than I burn(how much then), while exercising. And once I have gained enough (what is enough then?), I should start the diet, and eat less than I burn away in a day.
My question is: is the above plan legit, and where exactly can I figure out how much weight I should gain, how many calories I should eat in a day, and when I need to start the diet then?
My body looks like this at the moment: http://imgur.com/1ngr18K
PS: I used to follow the MFP thingy religiously, meaning that I ate at a deficit of about 500 calories earlier. I don't suppose this will work on muscle building, so I need to know exactly if I am to eat more calories then(like, 1000 more than I used to. A surplus).
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Replies
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Start working out now. Regardless of intake, it will help. In the abstract, to build muscles significantly, you will need to eat at a surplus. But you might like the way you look eating at maintenance and working out. The important part is actually taking the step to start lifting.0
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Hold up, lifting. Okay, I'm definitely going to start lifting. But, the diet is the part that is confusing me. Some tell me that I should bulk, meaning I gain weight (and not even be sure if it is muscle I'm building, which could also be just fat coming back from what I lost).
So you say, keep eating at a deficit(as a skinnyfat guy), and lift? What will happen then?0 -
As a skinny fat guy I would do a clean bulk (small surplus) this will help your recomposition over your first year of lifting.0
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So how small a surplus are we talking about here? 200 cal max?
How much weight a week is recommended for me to gain then, if I have spent the last year losing 20 lb (I had my ups and downs)?0 -
So how small a surplus are we talking about here? 200 cal max?
How much weight a week is recommended for me to gain then, if I have spent the last year losing 20 lb (I had my ups and downs)?
Sent you a pm with some links dude, didn't want to get done for pasting YouTube links, not sure on the forum rules here.0 -
A great video serious on nutrition for strength/muscle building from Eric Helms:
Here is the first video, 6 in the series and they are only up to number 3, but the first couple are probably the most important anyways.
http://youtu.be/GAvW6xBZjSk 0 -
The problem here is putting the cart before the horse. How much are you lifting? Currently not lifting(?). If you can't get yourself into a regular lifting schedule, it would be foolish to eat at a surplus.
You will be able to continue to cut fat, and see some initial muscular gains, while lifting at a deficit and getting a decent protein intake.
If you actually take to lifting and have a schedule/setup that you can rely on, then modifying intake to accommodate the lifting and build more muscle makes sense. At that point you can eat at a moderate surplus while lifting and be confident you're putting on muscle. And you'll be able to understand what's going on with your body better - which will allow you to self-regulate and evaluate the options (trying to lean gain, dirty bulk, etc) that fit you best.0 -
Allright, so the next question is, how do I know that I'm lifting 'enough'. Obviously, I'm a newbie here, and am planning on going to the gym next week. If I can somehow convince myself to go 4 times a week to the gym, and 'clean bulk', I imagine that I would see some good right? But do I need to follow certain programs then?0
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3x a week you need to build up a good foundation so look starting strength or another beginner 5x5 program.0
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Allright, so 3 times a week to the gym. How about cardio? Should I do that in two of the 4 off days then?0
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Check out this link for a good place to start with lifting:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843&page=1
Another good source is : http://www.amazon.com/Starting-Strength-3rd-Mark-Rippetoe/dp/0982522738
If you go with All Pro's routine, you'll probably find that your warm-up weight -- and, quite possibly, your actual lifting weight for some exercises -- will be well under the 45 lb. weight of an olympic barbell. If that's the case, you can go with dumbbells instead of barbells. In fact, there's quite possibly some benefit to starting with dumbbells, just in terms of building some stabilization.
A lot of folks around here like Stronglifts 5x5 as well. Personally, it feels like a rip-off of Rippetoe's stuff to me, with an added dose of ego / arrogance / bluster from the guy who peddles it <insert /flame-retardant underwear> ... but it seems to be relatively solid, regardless.
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If your not currently a very active person you need to be careful to give your muscle and central nervous system time to rest in between workouts, if you do cardio in your off days, don't overdo it and listen to your body. Personally I go for an hours walk or a light swim.
5x5 program's can be very exhausting0 -
If your not currently a very active person you need to be careful to give your muscle and central nervous system time to rest in between workouts, if you do cardio in your off days, don't overdo it and listen to your body. Personally I go for an hours walk or a light swim.
5x5 program's can be very exhausting
Agreed, on all points.
BTW, no matter what you end up doing, Rippetoe's book is an excellent primer for proper lifting form with serious (sometimes almost painful) amounts of details on the mechanics & physics of it all.0 -
If you have never lifted before and you start lifting you will actually get Noob gains. Since you are shocking you body by lifting it will give a mad dash to build muscle to compensate for the work you are doing. During this time period you can actually lose fat and build muscle its called body reposition. If you would like to build a bit and lose max fat cut at a 500 deficit a week, if you want to maximize you noob gains and get the most muscle for the short amount of time then slow bulk at a 1/2 lb a week. By doing 1/2 lb a week you are minimizing the amount of fat you will gain while maximizing the lean muscle mass0
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He wants to get a "batman chest" assuming by that he wants to go into bodybuilding, the 5x5 program won't help with that as it's a powerlifter routine.3x a week you need to build up a good foundation so look starting strength or another beginner 5x5 program.
To OP, there is no set routine that will work for everyone. Start finding out new exercises on youtube from channels like POG, Hodgetwins, Tiger Fitness and one I like as he's my age, scondore. The one fundamental that you need to understand here or you will stunt your progress is the difference between a power lifter and a body builder. A power lifter tries to move as much weight ANY way possible. They generally do heavy compound movements and I believe leave out isolation exercises as they wants to build up as much strength as possible, gaining a generous amount of muscle as a bi-product of their training. A bodybuilder does not care about the weight they move, only that they try and focus all the stress of the exercise to that muscle(s) that they are training, for example, for incline flies, they do not want to incorporate their delts or anything else into that exercise, they want to focus all the stress onto their chest, with fairly high CLEAN reps (8-12) with good form and keeping constant tension on the muscle. This is what creates the muscle to grow. Strength is the bi-product of this type of training, as it does come. But don't let seeing big guys pushing heavy weight at the gym fool you. Pick which one you want to go with and stick with it.
For the record:
Famous powerlifter: http://theswole.com/swole/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Konstantin-Konstantinovs.jpg
Don't know his training routine but I guarantee it is very low reps, very high weight
Famous bodybuilder: http://www.bodybuilding.com/contest_media/14071/43/d/img_09941285407965.jpg
Kai used to and still does I believe aim for 20 reps in his exercises.
Also, the main thing I don't like about 5x5 is the fact it's always 5 reps. What if you hit rep 5 and think oh, I can do more! Then you up the weight and can't do 5 as you are too tired? Whereas training to failure you can do sets that go 12, 9, and 8 with 1 forced rep and then you know that you have worked yourself hard.0 -
Sounds like you are after a recomposition type of strategy. You may find a lot of ideas on LeanGains that are in line with your goals. The strategy is built around intermittent fasting, but if that isn't your thing, there still may be some ideas to apply.0
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He wants to get a "batman chest" assuming by that he wants to go into bodybuilding, the 5x5 program won't help with that as it's a powerlifter routine.3x a week you need to build up a good foundation so look starting strength or another beginner 5x5 program.
To OP, there is no set routine that will work for everyone. Start finding out new exercises on youtube from channels like POG, Hodgetwins, Tiger Fitness and one I like as he's my age, scondore. The one fundamental that you need to understand here or you will stunt your progress is the difference between a power lifter and a body builder. A power lifter tries to move as much weight ANY way possible. They generally do heavy compound movements and I believe leave out isolation exercises as they wants to build up as much strength as possible, gaining a generous amount of muscle as a bi-product of their training. A bodybuilder does not care about the weight they move, only that they try and focus all the stress of the exercise to that muscle(s) that they are training, for example, for incline flies, they do not want to incorporate their delts or anything else into that exercise, they want to focus all the stress onto their chest, with fairly high CLEAN reps (8-12) with good form and keeping constant tension on the muscle. This is what creates the muscle to grow. Strength is the bi-product of this type of training, as it does come. But don't let seeing big guys pushing heavy weight at the gym fool you. Pick which one you want to go with and stick with it.
For the record:
Famous powerlifter: http://theswole.com/swole/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Konstantin-Konstantinovs.jpg
Don't know his training routine but I guarantee it is very low reps, very high weight
Famous bodybuilder: http://www.bodybuilding.com/contest_media/14071/43/d/img_09941285407965.jpg
Kai used to and still does I believe aim for 20 reps in his exercises.
Also, the main thing I don't like about 5x5 is the fact it's always 5 reps. What if you hit rep 5 and think oh, I can do more! Then you up the weight and can't do 5 as you are too tired? Whereas training to failure you can do sets that go 12, 9, and 8 with 1 forced rep and then you know that you have worked yourself hard.
if you feel you can do more than 5 your not lifting heavy enough.
A good bodybuilding 5x5: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148036063&page=1
I can't be bothered to go into hyperthrophy rep arguments, it's been proven wrong so many times but stays alive thanks to bro science. If he's a new lifter there's no point him going on any kind of split as its something that you should be doing as an intermediate lifter.
Arnold's primary workouts were compounds and I don't think anyone can argue about his bodybuilding status.0 -
Well guys, I think I have my plan.
1. Go to a gym three times a week(say Monday, Wednesday and Friday), and focus on lifting. I'll be using the Starting Strength/Rippletoe, and do everything the guide suggests: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=998224&page=1.
2. As for the diet, I will focus on gaining a half pound a week, by eating 2500 calories a day. This also means I must eat the minimum of the protein requirements. I'll be doing this for 7 months, until the first of February, and then, I'll start losing the body-fat.
3. See what to do then.
Does this sound legit? If so, any beginner's advice? How should I incorporate this into my daily life then? Any tips further?0 -
You'll slip up and have bad weeks, keep it up, the longer you do it for the better it will be. Add friends in here with similar targets. Also start watching YouTube fitness channels and reading books0
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I guess this link explains simply how it works
http://training.fitness.com/weight-training/calorie-deficit-vs-calorie-surplus-23829.html
Thanks AverageUkDude, jwdieter, and all you other dudes. Guess I need to get working here, and find some friends 0 -
I'm not a dude but my goal was the same...fat loss followed by getting ripped. Sounds like you have lots of direction. My only advice after reading this is to not get too hung up on a certain plan right away and don't stress every little detail. It takes time to develop a routine that works for your schedule and you'll try several different food plans (carb cycling, etc), several lifting programs, several supplements and powders, etc. The more you read the more you'll try to find the "perfect" plan. There isn't one, but eventually you will find something that works for you.0
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Hmm, I guess what you're saying is right too. I can't find a perfect plan
But the plan I have, bulking followed by cutting the bodyfat away, what can I expect from my body and the fat around it? I know the Your Mileage May Vary saying, but is there something to keep me going? Will people perceive me as becoming fatter, or more muscular? I certaintly hope the second, because I really could use a good first impression at college.0 -
Averageukdude gave SOLID advice right here.... Props!!0
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Hmm, I guess what you're saying is right too. I can't find a perfect plan
But the plan I have, bulking followed by cutting the bodyfat away, what can I expect from my body and the fat around it? I know the Your Mileage May Vary saying, but is there something to keep me going? Will people perceive me as becoming fatter, or more muscular? I certaintly hope the second, because I really could use a good first impression at college.
At 2500 and working hard for the first time, my guess is you'll be recomping for a few months. Meaning you'll look significantly better than you do now.0 -
Hmm, I guess what you're saying is right too. I can't find a perfect plan
But the plan I have, bulking followed by cutting the bodyfat away, what can I expect from my body and the fat around it? I know the Your Mileage May Vary saying, but is there something to keep me going? Will people perceive me as becoming fatter, or more muscular? I certaintly hope the second, because I really could use a good first impression at college.
At 2500 and working hard for the first time, my guess is you'll be recomping for a few months. Meaning you'll look significantly better than you do now.
Seriously?! A boy can only dream. Well, you got me motivated with that one. Let's hope so. 0 -
He wants to get a "batman chest" assuming by that he wants to go into bodybuilding, the 5x5 program won't help with that as it's a powerlifter routine.3x a week you need to build up a good foundation so look starting strength or another beginner 5x5 program.
To OP, there is no set routine that will work for everyone. Start finding out new exercises on youtube from channels like POG, Hodgetwins, Tiger Fitness and one I like as he's my age, scondore. The one fundamental that you need to understand here or you will stunt your progress is the difference between a power lifter and a body builder. A power lifter tries to move as much weight ANY way possible. They generally do heavy compound movements and I believe leave out isolation exercises as they wants to build up as much strength as possible, gaining a generous amount of muscle as a bi-product of their training. A bodybuilder does not care about the weight they move, only that they try and focus all the stress of the exercise to that muscle(s) that they are training, for example, for incline flies, they do not want to incorporate their delts or anything else into that exercise, they want to focus all the stress onto their chest, with fairly high CLEAN reps (8-12) with good form and keeping constant tension on the muscle. This is what creates the muscle to grow. Strength is the bi-product of this type of training, as it does come. But don't let seeing big guys pushing heavy weight at the gym fool you. Pick which one you want to go with and stick with it.
For the record:
Famous powerlifter: http://theswole.com/swole/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Konstantin-Konstantinovs.jpg
Don't know his training routine but I guarantee it is very low reps, very high weight
Famous bodybuilder: http://www.bodybuilding.com/contest_media/14071/43/d/img_09941285407965.jpg
Kai used to and still does I believe aim for 20 reps in his exercises.
Also, the main thing I don't like about 5x5 is the fact it's always 5 reps. What if you hit rep 5 and think oh, I can do more! Then you up the weight and can't do 5 as you are too tired? Whereas training to failure you can do sets that go 12, 9, and 8 with 1 forced rep and then you know that you have worked yourself hard.
if you feel you can do more than 5 your not lifting heavy enough.
A good bodybuilding 5x5: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148036063&page=1
I can't be bothered to go into hyperthrophy rep arguments, it's been proven wrong so many times but stays alive thanks to bro science. If he's a new lifter there's no point him going on any kind of split as its something that you should be doing as an intermediate lifter.
Arnold's primary workouts were compounds and I don't think anyone can argue about his bodybuilding status.
The guy that wrote that looks puffy and has almost no definition at all. The same as a typical powerlifter. Coincidence? I think not. Arnold was on steroids, look at CT Fletchers arms. No-one natural could train arms every day and get them that size. Current Mr Olympia Phil heath also trains in the 8-12 rep range. I know plenty of people who train 5x5 and eat a pretty good diet and are seeing barely any results at all. Me and my friend train in the 8-12 rep range (except compound movements) and are seeing gains regularly.0 -
The guy that wrote that looks puffy and has almost no definition at all. The same as a typical powerlifter. Coincidence? I think not. Arnold was on steroids, look at CT Fletchers arms. No-one natural could train arms every day and get them that size. Current Mr Olympia Phil heath also trains in the 8-12 rep range. I know plenty of people who train 5x5 and eat a pretty good diet and are seeing barely any results at all. Me and my friend train in the 8-12 rep range (except compound movements) and are seeing gains regularly.
(1) oh goody, a p___ing match
and
(2) enjoy your noob gains while they last ;-)0 -
He wants to get a "batman chest" assuming by that he wants to go into bodybuilding, the 5x5 program won't help with that as it's a powerlifter routine.3x a week you need to build up a good foundation so look starting strength or another beginner 5x5 program.
To OP, there is no set routine that will work for everyone. Start finding out new exercises on youtube from channels like POG, Hodgetwins, Tiger Fitness and one I like as he's my age, scondore. The one fundamental that you need to understand here or you will stunt your progress is the difference between a power lifter and a body builder. A power lifter tries to move as much weight ANY way possible. They generally do heavy compound movements and I believe leave out isolation exercises as they wants to build up as much strength as possible, gaining a generous amount of muscle as a bi-product of their training. A bodybuilder does not care about the weight they move, only that they try and focus all the stress of the exercise to that muscle(s) that they are training, for example, for incline flies, they do not want to incorporate their delts or anything else into that exercise, they want to focus all the stress onto their chest, with fairly high CLEAN reps (8-12) with good form and keeping constant tension on the muscle. This is what creates the muscle to grow. Strength is the bi-product of this type of training, as it does come. But don't let seeing big guys pushing heavy weight at the gym fool you. Pick which one you want to go with and stick with it.
For the record:
Famous powerlifter: http://theswole.com/swole/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Konstantin-Konstantinovs.jpg
Don't know his training routine but I guarantee it is very low reps, very high weight
Famous bodybuilder: http://www.bodybuilding.com/contest_media/14071/43/d/img_09941285407965.jpg
Kai used to and still does I believe aim for 20 reps in his exercises.
Also, the main thing I don't like about 5x5 is the fact it's always 5 reps. What if you hit rep 5 and think oh, I can do more! Then you up the weight and can't do 5 as you are too tired? Whereas training to failure you can do sets that go 12, 9, and 8 with 1 forced rep and then you know that you have worked yourself hard.
if you feel you can do more than 5 your not lifting heavy enough.
A good bodybuilding 5x5: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148036063&page=1
I can't be bothered to go into hyperthrophy rep arguments, it's been proven wrong so many times but stays alive thanks to bro science. If he's a new lifter there's no point him going on any kind of split as its something that you should be doing as an intermediate lifter.
Arnold's primary workouts were compounds and I don't think anyone can argue about his bodybuilding status.
The guy that wrote that looks puffy and has almost no definition at all. The same as a typical powerlifter. Coincidence? I think not. Arnold was on steroids, look at CT Fletchers arms. No-one natural could train arms every day and get them that size. Current Mr Olympia Phil heath also trains in the 8-12 rep range. I know plenty of people who train 5x5 and eat a pretty good diet and are seeing barely any results at all. Me and my friend train in the 8-12 rep range (except compound movements) and are seeing gains regularly.
Oh to be 18 and misinformed...0 -
He wants to get a "batman chest" assuming by that he wants to go into bodybuilding, the 5x5 program won't help with that as it's a powerlifter routine.3x a week you need to build up a good foundation so look starting strength or another beginner 5x5 program.
To OP, there is no set routine that will work for everyone. Start finding out new exercises on youtube from channels like POG, Hodgetwins, Tiger Fitness and one I like as he's my age, scondore. The one fundamental that you need to understand here or you will stunt your progress is the difference between a power lifter and a body builder. A power lifter tries to move as much weight ANY way possible. They generally do heavy compound movements and I believe leave out isolation exercises as they wants to build up as much strength as possible, gaining a generous amount of muscle as a bi-product of their training. A bodybuilder does not care about the weight they move, only that they try and focus all the stress of the exercise to that muscle(s) that they are training, for example, for incline flies, they do not want to incorporate their delts or anything else into that exercise, they want to focus all the stress onto their chest, with fairly high CLEAN reps (8-12) with good form and keeping constant tension on the muscle. This is what creates the muscle to grow. Strength is the bi-product of this type of training, as it does come. But don't let seeing big guys pushing heavy weight at the gym fool you. Pick which one you want to go with and stick with it.
For the record:
Famous powerlifter: http://theswole.com/swole/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Konstantin-Konstantinovs.jpg
Don't know his training routine but I guarantee it is very low reps, very high weight
Famous bodybuilder: http://www.bodybuilding.com/contest_media/14071/43/d/img_09941285407965.jpg
Kai used to and still does I believe aim for 20 reps in his exercises.
Also, the main thing I don't like about 5x5 is the fact it's always 5 reps. What if you hit rep 5 and think oh, I can do more! Then you up the weight and can't do 5 as you are too tired? Whereas training to failure you can do sets that go 12, 9, and 8 with 1 forced rep and then you know that you have worked yourself hard.
if you feel you can do more than 5 your not lifting heavy enough.
A good bodybuilding 5x5: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=148036063&page=1
I can't be bothered to go into hyperthrophy rep arguments, it's been proven wrong so many times but stays alive thanks to bro science. If he's a new lifter there's no point him going on any kind of split as its something that you should be doing as an intermediate lifter.
Arnold's primary workouts were compounds and I don't think anyone can argue about his bodybuilding status.
The guy that wrote that looks puffy and has almost no definition at all. The same as a typical powerlifter. Coincidence? I think not. Arnold was on steroids, look at CT Fletchers arms. No-one natural could train arms every day and get them that size. Current Mr Olympia Phil heath also trains in the 8-12 rep range. I know plenty of people who train 5x5 and eat a pretty good diet and are seeing barely any results at all. Me and my friend train in the 8-12 rep range (except compound movements) and are seeing gains regularly.
Oh to be 18 and misinformed...
http://www.muscleandstrength.com/workouts/arnold-schwarzenegger-volume-workout-routines
"He would mix things up -- sometimes he'd even work out twice a day. He did a lot of forced reps and pyramids by adding weight to each set. He preferred doing 6 to 10 reps per set and sometimes (to break though plateaus) did 20 sets per body part."
Has anyone actually watched his workout videos? He tends towards the 6-10 rep range. Most bodybuilders do the same. Have any of you actually watched a bodybuilder work out? Or do you just listen to the advice given on a FITNESS website by ectomorphs?0
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