Recomp Question - simultaneous fat loss and muscle growth

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getyourbeans
getyourbeans Posts: 80 Member
in Health and Weight Loss
This is becoming my pet obsession at the moment. I posted a query about a week ago in relation to whether or not it was possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time essentially by calorie cycling. The thread derailed a bit but I think the consensus was you could 'recomp' slowly, but you'd likely need longer cycles of bulking and cutting. Also that with any muscle gain - inevitably will also be some fat gain and with any fat loss - inevitably some muscle loss.

I follow an 'eat more to weigh less' board here and one of my MFP friends posted her success story. With her permission, I have re-posted her comment together with my response below. Holley's results indicate that it does seem to be possible to build muscle while losing fat at a slight deficit (with quite significant muscle gains and what I think are significant fat losses, too).

I'm not really worried about the number on the scale, but I do like to see an experience process. If pounds aren't dropping, then I would hope to be seeing changes in body fat and measurements. In saying that, I am at about 29% body fat now, so still wanting fat loss to be my primary concern. I wondered whether anyone else had had an experience like Holley and how they managed their lifestyle to achieve it.

In saying that, the answer may very well be that some people's bodies, for whatever reason, defy logic and do their own thing :-) (sadly I don't appear to be one of them!)

Would love to hear other peoples feedback!

(note - THIS IS NOT A QUERY ABOUT WHETHER CLEAN EATING GETS YOU BETTER RESULTS! :flowerforyou: )
Ok, better update of the past twelve weeks:

4/24/13: 36.1% body fat at 219.8 lbs (79.35 lbs fat)
7/3/13: 32.7% body fat at 217.6 lbs (71.16 lbs fat)

My dietitian calculated my body fat using calipers under the same conditions both times. She also took measurements, but I'm not going to post those. Basically, I lost 0.5-1 inch everywhere! Including on my stubborn thighs!

I ate 250 calories less than my BMF said I burned per day, so I ate 2200-3200 calories a day depending on how big my burn was. About every two weeks I ate 700 OVER TDEE because I was starving. Didn't hurt my progress any, obviously! So my deficit ended up being less than 10%.

I just want to stress how important it is to trust the process and not focus on the scale. As you can see, I barely lost any scale weight, but I lost over 8 POUNDS of fat. And just to put this in perspective, last year at this time I weighed 198 lbs and 44.6% body fat (88.31 lbs fat). Gaining weight is not the end of the world!

That's a really awesome drop in body fat % (wish I could see the same, mine never seems to change!) but I'm confused about the science behind it. I thought you needed to burn 3,500 calories to lose a pound of fat - but to gain any muscle you need to eat at surplus of your TDEE. If you've been eating at a slight deficit (with an occasional 'refeed') over the last three months you've managed to lose 8 pounds of fat and gain 6 pounds of muscle. And in the past year you've lost 17 lbs of fat and gained 34 lbs of muscle? I mean obviously it's working for you, but I want to know how (so I can get my body to do that, too!). Maybe I look at things too logically but I really like to know how the body works :-) Did your trainer/nutritionist give you any insight?

I'd love to know how you timed your workouts and re-feeds etc, as I've been trying to figure out a way of gaining (or at least maintaining) muscle while also losing fat. Cheers :-)

Replies

  • leebesstoad
    leebesstoad Posts: 1,186 Member
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    Let me give you a quote from Lyle McDonald. I'm reading his book "The Ketogenic Diet" in preparation for a one month cycle of being on a ketogenic diet starting next week. Lyle's book has the science to back up what he is saying. But this is what he says about fat loss and muscle gain at the same time:

    "Simply put, the body must either be systemically catabolic (for fat loss) or systemically anabolic (for muscle gain). Attempting to gain significant amounts of muscle while losing fat at the same time or vice versa tends to minimize the results of either goal. Most individuals find that focusing on either fat loss or muscle growth yields the best results."

    Fat loss and muscle gain are opposite goals, and although they may be technically possible, it is very, VERY unlikely. And trying to do both compromises both. A quote I use sums it up: "If you try to be all things to all people, you will end up being nothing to any of them instead". Far better to focus on one, then the other. Why the rush? Focus on one thing at a time.
  • getyourbeans
    getyourbeans Posts: 80 Member
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    Let me give you a quote from Lyle McDonald. I'm reading his book "The Ketogenic Diet" in preparation for a one month cycle of being on a ketogenic diet starting next week. Lyle's book has the science to back up what he is saying. But this is what he says about fat loss and muscle gain at the same time:

    "Simply put, the body must either be systemically catabolic (for fat loss) or systemically anabolic (for muscle gain). Attempting to gain significant amounts of muscle while losing fat at the same time or vice versa tends to minimize the results of either goal. Most individuals find that focusing on either fat loss or muscle growth yields the best results."

    Fat loss and muscle gain are opposite goals, and although they may be technically possible, it is very, VERY unlikely. And trying to do both compromises both. A quote I use sums it up: "If you try to be all things to all people, you will end up being nothing to any of them instead". Far better to focus on one, then the other. Why the rush? Focus on one thing at a time.

    That was my understanding of it, too. But then I see examples (like the one I posted above) and the laws of physics don't seem to apply to some people.

    It was more of a curious question than a desperate quest for answers - I like things to make sense and when some people get results that don't make "sense" I want to know why :-)

    It's not that I'm in any particular rush, I know this will take time, I just want to do it right. I want the fat gone first (and at my fat percentage that should be my focus, anyway) it's just if I can get down to a reasonable size without being flabby and weak, I'd like to do that too! :happy:


    thanks for your feedback!
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
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    I hit maintenance at the start of the year - maintenance range for weight but still above my body fat target.

    Decided to try to recomp because:
    A: I gain fat very quickly
    B: I'm 53 so muscle gains are slow
    C: I'm contrary and like a challenge!

    I follow the 5:2 eating regime so at maintenance I'm having 2 days with a large deficit and 5 days at a small surplus.

    Initially it seemed to work but very slowly and seemed to stall out after a few months - see my profile for numbers. Results are a bit hard to judge as I've adjusted by weight target down a couple of times for cycling performance and vanity. If you aren't prepared to be patient then it's not for you.

    Understand the arguments against recomp but I can't get away from the thought your body will slowly adjust to the demands you put upon it. Taking diet and weight training out of the equation.... If you take a sedentary person and give them a manual job wouldn't you expect them over time to become more muscular with lower fat if they managed to keep their weight steady?
  • LeanButNotMean44
    LeanButNotMean44 Posts: 852 Member
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    I must be a weirdo, but per my most current Dexa scan I *did* lose fat and gain muscle versus my first Dexa. I suspect that perhaps focusing on losing fat or gaining muscle (rather than attempting both) would net greater results.

    I don't have the specifics in front of me, but if you would like that information, let me know and I would be happy to post it.

    Disclaimer: I know that Dexa isn't 100% accurate, but since it is one of the closest to accurate methods available, it's what I use to measure my progress.
  • MarcusCrassus
    MarcusCrassus Posts: 1
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    It is time for weight loss/bodybuilding/fitness enthusiasts to emerge from the dark ages of diet wisdom. There is no need to keep doing all of this bulking then cutting. It is absolutely possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Some hormones are catabolic to muscle and also to fat. Some hormones are catabolic to muscle and anabolic to fat. Some are anabolic to muscle and catabolic to fat. A diet predicated on the idea that a calorie is a calorie will not be the most effective tool for any goal because it does not take into account the hormonal consequences of different types of food.

    There are two frameworks that absolutely will work for simultaneously building muscle and burning fat. One is Carb Backloading, the other is Intermittent Fasting.

    To simplify a highly complex diet into a sentence, Carb Backloading works by taking advatage of ketosis to burn fat during the day and uses reduced insulin sensitivity and resistance training in the evening to capitalize on the muscle building properties of insulin while minimizing fat gain normally associated with insulin spikes. http://thelastgoodfight.com/?p=115

    Intermittent Fasting is a far simpler diet but no less effective. With intermittent fasting you will consume all of your calories within a small window and fast the rest of the day. Most IF'ers will schedule the bulk of their fasting period while they are sleeping to cut down on hunger pangs. My favorite variety is a 16 hour fast and an 8 hr eating period. http://thelastgoodfight.com/?p=123
  • SparkleShine
    SparkleShine Posts: 2,001 Member
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    I feel like I did that...lost fat and gained muscle.:wink: I didn't read too much about it because all that stuff can confuse me! haha!
  • MercenaryNoetic26
    MercenaryNoetic26 Posts: 2,747 Member
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    I must be a weirdo, but per my most current Dexa scan I *did* lose fat and gain muscle versus my first Dexa. I suspect that perhaps focusing on losing fat or gaining muscle (rather than attempting both) would net greater results.

    I don't have the specifics in front of me, but if you would like that information, let me know and I would be happy to post it.

    Disclaimer: I know that Dexa isn't 100% accurate, but since it is one of the closest to accurate methods available, it's what I use to measure my progress.

    I'm very interested in the Dexa scan. I was going to do that or Hydrostatic measuring at UIC, but I saw how Dexa breaks everything down, and I really like that.

    I also decided to attempt a recomp. I have been weighing 120 for about 5months, but I definitely look different! I definitely have muscle memory working to my advantage.
  • deksgrl
    deksgrl Posts: 7,237 Member
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    Was Holley new to lifting? I have heard that it is possible for those who are new to lifting and it's called "newbie gains".
  • eric_sg61
    eric_sg61 Posts: 2,925 Member
    Options
    It is time for weight loss/bodybuilding/fitness enthusiasts to emerge from the dark ages of diet wisdom. There is no need to keep doing all of this bulking then cutting. It is absolutely possible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time. Some hormones are catabolic to muscle and also to fat. Some hormones are catabolic to muscle and anabolic to fat. Some are anabolic to muscle and catabolic to fat. A diet predicated on the idea that a calorie is a calorie will not be the most effective tool for any goal because it does not take into account the hormonal consequences of different types of food.

    There are two frameworks that absolutely will work for simultaneously building muscle and burning fat. One is Carb Backloading, the other is Intermittent Fasting.

    To simplify a highly complex diet into a sentence, Carb Backloading works by taking advatage of ketosis to burn fat during the day and uses reduced insulin sensitivity and resistance training in the evening to capitalize on the muscle building properties of insulin while minimizing fat gain normally associated with insulin spikes. http://thelastgoodfight.com/?p=115

    Intermittent Fasting is a far simpler diet but no less effective. With intermittent fasting you will consume all of your calories within a small window and fast the rest of the day. Most IF'ers will schedule the bulk of their fasting period while they are sleeping to cut down on hunger pangs. My favorite variety is a 16 hour fast and an 8 hr eating period. http://thelastgoodfight.com/?p=123
    There is no magic to either one of these diets.

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