A calorie is not a calorie - proof sugar is the problem.
Replies
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Curious
For those who claim they can lose weight while eating loads of sugar, have any of you ever been very overweight or obese?
I think this is a really important distinction to make when talking about this issue because the idea is is that if you are someone who has problems with sugar, you are going to get obese and to lose that weight you have to cut down on sugar.
If you've never been really overweight then it's likely you don't have an issue with sugar, in which case this doesn't apply to you.
I was obese. I lost weight through IIFYM and moderation, yes I ate sugar and processed foods (still do). Went from around 40% body fat to below 20%. Have been maintaining for two years (for the last year and a half without logging. I used to have trouble with low blood sugar but haven't had an attack in probably 3 years. Sugar was not the reason I was fat. I was a clean eater when I was younger, my parents were very stricked about it, yet I was still sick and obese because of the amount of food I ate.0 -
Here's where you need to reexamine your statement. You're correct that the body hasn't significantly changed in 30,000 years. What is one of it's most efficient survival mechanisms?..........................Fat storage. Why are there so many overweight/obese now than before? Because the body CAN effectively hold all that fat. Over consumption is the issue. Plain and simple. Reduce consumption, and weight reduces.However, when you consider that our bodies in their present state haven't evolved significantly for at least 30,000 years and how much new 'food' we've introduced like sugar - it seems a rational argument that we simply haven't had time to adapt to these and they therefore present as toxins in significant quantities.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes over consumption is the issue. What is really being debated by the "experts" the OP linked is the cause of over consumption. Why is it all of a sudden happening so much in the last few decades, not just in the US anymore but globally? Why is it happening now? For Dr. Lustig his stance is that it is about sugar and the way the food industry processes food for non-perishable foods stripping fat and fiber while adding in sugar and salt.0 -
The only thing slowing people down is themselves. Plain and simple. Eat less, workout more, just do it0
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Here's where you need to reexamine your statement. You're correct that the body hasn't significantly changed in 30,000 years. What is one of it's most efficient survival mechanisms?..........................Fat storage. Why are there so many overweight/obese now than before? Because the body CAN effectively hold all that fat. Over consumption is the issue. Plain and simple. Reduce consumption, and weight reduces.However, when you consider that our bodies in their present state haven't evolved significantly for at least 30,000 years and how much new 'food' we've introduced like sugar - it seems a rational argument that we simply haven't had time to adapt to these and they therefore present as toxins in significant quantities.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes over consumption is the issue. What is really being debated by the "experts" the OP linked is the cause of over consumption. Why is it all of a sudden happening so much in the last few decades, not just in the US anymore but globally? Why is it happening now? For Dr. Lustig his stance is that it is about sugar and the way the food industry processes food for non-perishable foods stripping fat and fiber while adding in sugar and salt.
Precisely. The question is whether certain types of food (simple carbs) are causing us to over-eat because they drive fat storage and induce cravings. It's a multi-faceted problem involving multi-national firms, social issues, politics, education and personal responsibility. That is likely also has bio-chemistry at the heart of the issue was a new discovery to me I thought worth sharing.0 -
Tell that to Asia.:laugh:You're essentially correct. sugar is a carbohydrate and carbohydrates are the problem. Gary Taubes has documented this clearly in Good Calories Bad Calories as well as http://www.perfecthumandiet.us/
A calorie is simply not a calorie much to everyone's surprise.
White rice, rice noodles, sweet breads........................they should be as fat as Americans if this was the case.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
While I'm happy for everyone that can lose weight eating sugar, for those of us at risk of diabetes keeping a lot of sugar in the diet is simply madness and I find it shocking how so many people will jump all over people cutting down on sugar and carbs saying its pointless and eating carbs is fine just because THEY happen to be able to handle it.
I think it's pretty crazy considering just how many people have diabetes, pre diabetes or are at risk and also considering how sugar and carbs simply are not essential nutrients unlike protein and fat0 -
Here's where you need to reexamine your statement. You're correct that the body hasn't significantly changed in 30,000 years. What is one of it's most efficient survival mechanisms?..........................Fat storage. Why are there so many overweight/obese now than before? Because the body CAN effectively hold all that fat. Over consumption is the issue. Plain and simple. Reduce consumption, and weight reduces.However, when you consider that our bodies in their present state haven't evolved significantly for at least 30,000 years and how much new 'food' we've introduced like sugar - it seems a rational argument that we simply haven't had time to adapt to these and they therefore present as toxins in significant quantities.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes over consumption is the issue. What is really being debated by the "experts" the OP linked is the cause of over consumption. Why is it all of a sudden happening so much in the last few decades, not just in the US anymore but globally? Why is it happening now? For Dr. Lustig his stance is that it is about sugar and the way the food industry processes food for non-perishable foods stripping fat and fiber while adding in sugar and salt.
Precisely. The question is whether certain types of food (simple carbs) are causing us to over-eat because they drive fat storage and induce cravings. It's a multi-faceted problem involving multi-national firms, social issues, politics, education and personal responsibility. That is likely also has bio-chemistry at the heart of the issue was a new discovery to me I thought worth sharing.
maybe it's just the intermittent fasting turning me into a special snowflake immune to bro-chemistry.
Can't wait for my daily chocolate dipped cone later.0 -
Cause of over consumption is due to the inability of many to account for how many calories they need to eat daily to maintain weight. Ask the average American, European, Asian, African etc. and the majority won't have any idea. Now make food that tastes good and is calorie dense...............voila, over consumption. Something doesn't have to be salty or sweet to be over consumed. Alcohol, nuts, fatty meats, fried foods, etc. ALL attribute to foods with high calorie counts.
Here's where you need to reexamine your statement. You're correct that the body hasn't significantly changed in 30,000 years. What is one of it's most efficient survival mechanisms?..........................Fat storage. Why are there so many overweight/obese now than before? Because the body CAN effectively hold all that fat. Over consumption is the issue. Plain and simple. Reduce consumption, and weight reduces.However, when you consider that our bodies in their present state haven't evolved significantly for at least 30,000 years and how much new 'food' we've introduced like sugar - it seems a rational argument that we simply haven't had time to adapt to these and they therefore present as toxins in significant quantities.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Yes over consumption is the issue. What is really being debated by the "experts" the OP linked is the cause of over consumption. Why is it all of a sudden happening so much in the last few decades, not just in the US anymore but globally? Why is it happening now? For Dr. Lustig his stance is that it is about sugar and the way the food industry processes food for non-perishable foods stripping fat and fiber while adding in sugar and salt.
Attributing the obesity issue to just sugar is a subjective look at the issue.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition0 -
I stopped reading @ Lustig.
Then I skipped to the end, as I saw SS had posted.
I see someone else talking about Taubes.
My neck is sore from shaking my head so much. Was Dr. Oz mentioned in between?
Surprisingly, no Dr. Oz or Dr. Mercola as of yet. I feel sad for people who buy into quackery and then close their minds, pretending it's gospel truth.
ETA, I'm on 200-250g carbs. Carbs are for energy, not our enemy.0 -
While I'm happy for everyone that can lose weight eating sugar, for those of us at risk of diabetes keeping a lot of sugar in the diet is simply madness and I find it shocking how so many people will jump all over people cutting down on sugar and carbs saying its pointless and eating carbs is fine just because THEY happen to be able to handle it.
I think it's pretty crazy considering just how many people have diabetes, pre diabetes or are at risk and also considering how sugar and carbs simply are not essential nutrients unlike protein and fat
What is glucose?0 -
If a calorie is not a calorie then I guess I really didn't go from a 15/16 to a 2/4 by counting them haha
Sugar is a real issue though!0 -
While I'm happy for everyone that can lose weight eating sugar, for those of us at risk of diabetes keeping a lot of sugar in the diet is simply madness and I find it shocking how so many people will jump all over people cutting down on sugar and carbs saying its pointless and eating carbs is fine just because THEY happen to be able to handle it.
I think it's pretty crazy considering just how many people have diabetes, pre diabetes or are at risk and also considering how sugar and carbs simply are not essential nutrients unlike protein and fat
if you said you were cutting down on carbs because of pre-diabetes, nobody would say anything about that.
if you said you were cutting down on carbs beacuse carbs are bad and the culprit for the so-called obesity epidemic, then you are going to get called to the mat for that because it's nonsense.
context matters.0 -
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While I'm happy for everyone that can lose weight eating sugar, for those of us at risk of diabetes keeping a lot of sugar in the diet is simply madness and I find it shocking how so many people will jump all over people cutting down on sugar and carbs saying its pointless and eating carbs is fine just because THEY happen to be able to handle it.
I think it's pretty crazy considering just how many people have diabetes, pre diabetes or are at risk and also considering how sugar and carbs simply are not essential nutrients unlike protein and fat
I don't think anyone has really been advocating that people with blood sugar disorders or diabetes should start eating high sugar diets. Mostly people are just refuting this idea that, for people who do not have a problem that forces them to cut drastically back on sugar, there is something wrong with eating it. I also love how people constantly deem sugar and carbs "non essential" considering how they are the fuel that runs your entire body.
Of course anyone who overindulges extensively is putting their body at risk to develop diabetes. That is another good reason why people shouldn't ridiculously over-indulge. But I would argue that ridiculously over-indulging in any one thing is bad for you. On the flip side, I have to argue that, for an average person with no particular health problems, completely cutting out one particular item (including sugar and carbs), is equally bad for you. I get irritated with threads on sites all over the web that want to come down on one particular food group or item as "the devil" of weight gain and if we would all just stop eating that one thing we would all stop being fat. The human body is far too complex for a) this to work even for most people and b) for this to not to throw your body out of balance and affect all kinds of inner-workings you don't even know about. I just get really tired of people advocating their secret solution of demonizing a particular food, whether it be fat, sugar, carbs, or whatever. Just wait, in a couple of years protein will be the new villain in the weight loss fight. If you want to lose weight, you just have to take care of all of you -- eat in balance, don't over-indulge, don't rob your body of essential nutrients, exercise regularly, and remember that your psychology has a say in what works for you.
TL/DR: No one would expect a diabetic to start eating a bunch of sugar. Personally, I just get sick of people picking on one thing to solve all of the obesity in the world when weight loss is such a complex issue.0 -
you know, I also take issue with the claim that sugar doesn't ever contribute to satiety. Just from personal experience, I feel more full if I eat sugar than if I eat beef. Beef I can eat all day.0
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I find it most comical that all of people who typically complain about carbs and sugars etc being the problem tend to overlook the aspect of fitness. The one correlation you will find is that those individuals who are consuming a large portion of carbs on a daily basis that are very lean and athletic, is that they actually kill it in the gym.
The real issue is that people consume too much food, cannot comprehend how to accurately track calories, and do not exercise hard enough. It's energy balance.
Yes, you can eat terrible food and overcome that by "killing it at the gym".
There have been fat people throughout history, even in the days when "natural" foods were all there were to eat.
The insidious thing about processed foods, which tend to be high in carbs and high in sugar, is that they are cheap, convenient, and extremely tasty.
These three factors make it easy to consume too much of them!
Even if processed, carb-heavy foods are as healthy as any other food, if you eat a diet of them and you don't track what you are eating it is very easy to end up eating a calorie surplus.
This is harder to do if you eat natural foods. Natural foods tend to be more expensive, not as convenient to prepare, and not as tasty. Sit down to a bowl of scrambled eggs and a bowl of Fruit Loops and see which one you feel like eating more of and which one leaves you feeling hungry sooner after you eat them.
Frankly, I am very skeptical that manufactured foods are always good for you. But I think it's beyond a doubt that they make it very easy and inexpensive to over-consume.0 -
While I'm happy for everyone that can lose weight eating sugar, for those of us at risk of diabetes keeping a lot of sugar in the diet is simply madness and I find it shocking how so many people will jump all over people cutting down on sugar and carbs saying its pointless and eating carbs is fine just because THEY happen to be able to handle it.
I think it's pretty crazy considering just how many people have diabetes, pre diabetes or are at risk and also considering how sugar and carbs simply are not essential nutrients unlike protein and fat
if you said you were cutting down on carbs because of pre-diabetes, nobody would say anything about that.
if you said you were cutting down on carbs beacuse carbs are bad and the culprit for the so-called obesity epidemic, then you are going to get called to the mat for that because it's nonsense.
context matters.
If every obese person who is diabetic, pre diabetic or at risk for diabetes were no longer obese I don't think we would have a so called obesity epidemic.
I don't think anyone should have to wait to get sick before deciding to try cutting sugar to see if t works for them. It provides no nutrients, just energy.
Glucose can be created by your body. There is no requirement for you to consume it0 -
bump to continue later0
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This. According to my doctor my blood sugar is normal but I was constantly hungry and starting to have episodes of hypoglycemia when I was eating a moderate carb diet that came from mostly whole grains and fruit -- it's not like I was even eating junk food. Within weeks of lowering my carbs my appetite normalized and I haven't had an issue with low blood sugar since. A low carb diet works best for me -- I don't need a disease to justify my choice.If every obese person who is diabetic, pre diabetic or at risk for diabetes were no longer obese I don't think we would have a so called obesity epidemic.
I don't think anyone should have to wait to get sick before deciding to try cutting sugar to see if t works for them. It provides no nutrients, just energy.
Glucose can be created by your body. There is no requirement for you to consume it0 -
Proof...
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.0 -
I love Chamonix, France, really love it, but Paleo is such utter bs, it's just another version of Atkins aka no carb/low carb diet. Further, scientists say the low carb/no carb/no gluten this is a scam & bs.
BTW, just google PALEO DIET KIDNEY & you'll see TONS of people who got kidney stones from this diet. Fair warning. Not just KIDNEY STONES but people are getting full on KIDNEY DISEASE from it.
Further, a calorie is a calorie. Nutritional values are different, and it's always better to eat whole foods rather than anything processed of course.
OTOH I'm supremely envious of you living in Chamonix!!!0 -
I can post almost exactly this same thing.
Heck, use sugar in my coffee, but it's not like I'm pouring a pound of it every day either.
Moderation, moderation.
And exercise.I am glad you found what works for you.
Your study of one, though, is hardly proof. It is anecdotal and not scientific at all. I have lost almost 40 pounds in 19 weeks (so a nice, steady weekly loss), and I eat stuff with sugar in it.0 -
This is the song that never ends....
Yes it goes on and on my friend...
Some people started singing it, not knowing what it does...
And they'll continue singing forever just because...
This is the song that never ends....
Lol omg i agree why does this never stop!!0 -
Very good discussion, with valid points on both sides. If it were clearly one answer or the other, we would have no need for discussion. I wonder if we'll ever know the full answer?!
Personally, I get low blood sugar and eating protein & veggies is the best diet for me individually. Sugar/carbs (even fruit) spike and drop my blood sugar levels and make me very sluggish and sleepy after eating them. That is just my personal experience, with my personal body chemistry. I have friends who do fine on moderate amounts of sugar/carbs (though most people I know have trouble staying within the moderate range). I believe everyone is different and needs to find what works for them.
However, I would be interested to see some long-term studies on sugar's effects over years of consumption, especially at the rate the average American consumes it these days ... it can't be good in such large quantities. Why the heck do manufacturers have to put it (and so much of it) in everything?!
Oh yeah, because it's addictive :noway:
One thing no one has mentioned: candida/yeast overgrowth, which certainly makes one fat, and is fed by sugar & processed carbs. Could be a cause of many people's weight gain from sugar/carbs ... myself included. I clearly see it in myself. If I eat sugar and processed carbs for a while, I get all the symptoms. And if I continue to eat them, the symptoms grow worse, so I go on an anti-candida diet with no sugar (and no hidden sugars), no carbs and some herbs to cleanse the stuff. I lose the cravings, the yeast infection, the bloat and certainly some fat. Unfortunately, it can come back if I go back to eating it. :ohwell:
Just my $0.020 -
I love Chamonix, France, really love it, but Paleo is such utter bs, it's just another version of Atkins aka no carb/low carb diet. Further, scientists say the low carb/no carb/no gluten this is a scam & bs.
BTW, just google PALEO DIET KIDNEY & you'll see TONS of people who got kidney stones from this diet. Fair warning. Not just KIDNEY STONES but people are getting full on KIDNEY DISEASE from it.
Further, a calorie is a calorie. Nutritional values are different, and it's always better to eat whole foods rather than anything processed of course.
OTOH I'm supremely envious of you living in Chamonix!!!
To be fair - paleo isn't low carb/no carb. There is no limit to carbs, however, since the diet requires you to cut out a large source of carbs it tends to be lower carb. Active people are still encouraged to get carbs from vegetable sources along with some fruit.0 -
I love that there's never a shortage of anecdotal "I did an eighth of blow every night and lost XX pounds" postings. As soon as you start citing cavemen you lose me.0
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Everyone's body is different. There are a number of basic rules that apply to everyone, and then a number of exceptions to those rules, and there are a number of special case rules. It's actually very complex and based on the individual.
There's still a lot they don't understand about how the body works. People with IBS for instance, they don't really know what causes it or how exactly to prevent it for everyone. Many human digestion issues, nutrition issues, are really just poorly understood umbrella terms being applied to what are probably a range of factors.
Eat sugar if you want, don't eat it if you want. I follow IIFYM and I eat whatever the hell I want. You don't like it you're a loon who needs to go find another corner of the internet.0 -
I love Chamonix, France, really love it, but Paleo is such utter bs, it's just another version of Atkins aka no carb/low carb diet. Further, scientists say the low carb/no carb/no gluten this is a scam & bs.
BTW, just google PALEO DIET KIDNEY & you'll see TONS of people who got kidney stones from this diet. Fair warning. Not just KIDNEY STONES but people are getting full on KIDNEY DISEASE from it.
Further, a calorie is a calorie. Nutritional values are different, and it's always better to eat whole foods rather than anything processed of course.
OTOH I'm supremely envious of you living in Chamonix!!!
To be fair - paleo isn't low carb/no carb. There is no limit to carbs, however, since the diet requires you to cut out a large source of carbs it tends to be lower carb. Active people are still encouraged to get carbs from vegetable sources along with some fruit.
But you're cutting out BREAD entirely. I stand by my answer. And it's been documented by scientists that it's complete nonsense, bs, etc. As I said GOOGLE PALEO DIET KIDNEY. Just google it. See what happens. It's dangerous and people are getting SICK.0 -
I love Chamonix, France, really love it, but Paleo is such utter bs, it's just another version of Atkins aka no carb/low carb diet. Further, scientists say the low carb/no carb/no gluten this is a scam & bs.
BTW, just google PALEO DIET KIDNEY & you'll see TONS of people who got kidney stones from this diet. Fair warning. Not just KIDNEY STONES but people are getting full on KIDNEY DISEASE from it.
Further, a calorie is a calorie. Nutritional values are different, and it's always better to eat whole foods rather than anything processed of course.
OTOH I'm supremely envious of you living in Chamonix!!!
To be fair - paleo isn't low carb/no carb. There is no limit to carbs, however, since the diet requires you to cut out a large source of carbs it tends to be lower carb. Active people are still encouraged to get carbs from vegetable sources along with some fruit.
But you're cutting out BREAD entirely. I stand by my answer. And it's been documented by scientists that it's complete nonsense, bs, etc. As I said GOOGLE PALEO DIET KIDNEY. Just google it. See what happens. It's dangerous and people are getting SICK.
Yes, I didn't argue you don't cut out bread, I even referenced cutting out a whole source of carbs.
I'm not even arguing for the diet, just pointing out an inaccuracy.
I'm also not convinced it is that dangerous. You can certainly live without bread and grains and whatever else is elminated. you don't have to but you can. There are lots of other diets that are high in protein.
Is it unnecessarily restrictive, yes. Is it dangerous - if done right, not that I have ever seen.
I did google paleo diet kidney and found a lot of pro paleo topics about it. I didn't find any dangerous ones.0 -
Seems we got the wrong guy in the 1980s - we should have eliminated the sugar, not the fat.
I agree with that. Instead they lowered the fat and replaced it with sugar as it is so cheap.
I don't think that you have to go back 3,000 years - my 86yr old grandmother has a fairly low sugar diet which is the pretty standard 1950s diet of unprocessed food and only a little bit of sugar.
David Gillespie's 'Sweet Poison' is a pretty good read too.0
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