Is it all about the net? Can I walk so that I can eat?

I think so! No magic - calories in, calories out. I have only been here a little over three months, but have read a lot of the posts and most agree - thats what its all about. I cycle and am out there thinking - "I can have a Zone bar when i get back!" More miles - more treats! Keep walking!

IMHO, is a really bad idea. People tend to greatly overestimate how much they burn, so you'll end up eating more than you need. Don't use exercising as an excuse to eat more... it's a surefire recipe for disaster, just my 2 cents

Scientists have agreed for years that a calorie = a calorie, no matter its source. BUT, in recent years, most scientists have come to realize that, whle the energy potentials of calories ARE equivalent (by definition, a calorie = the amount of energy needed to raise the temperature of 1 kilogram of water by 1 degree Celsius), the work that our bodies go through as far as processing different foods isn't! For whole-grain/ multi-grain/ more fibrous bread (a.k.a. "complex carbohydrates"), for example, when compared to white bread, a human's body must expend more energy (and remember that energy = calories) while trying to metabolize (break down) the whole grain bread in order for the body to be able to use it as energy. In other words, "complex" carbohydrates can't be used immediately as energy by our bodies...so we spend energy to break those down first. Energy that is not spent breaking down "simple" carbs (like table sugar, because our body can use "simple" carbs as-is for its energy needs. So while we go to the gym and log hours walking, if we eat a diet with lots of super foods and complex carbs, then although we don't realize this, our guts are churning away and also logging additional calorie burns for us breaking down all of that stuff, internally! Also, due to the fact that this break-down process does take some time, these foods stay in our guts longer, and so while it's sitting in there there waiting to be broken down, it of course makes us feel fuller (satisfied) for longer, and so we don't get hungry as quickly, and so we don't eat as much additional food in order to feel full, and so we don't eat as many additional calories as often, and so our bodies don't get as fat as quickly! So....all calorie counts ARE equivalent, but not all foods are equivalent, especially for those of us who want to drop weight and develop lifetime food habits that will help us keep it off. No, I am not a scientist...also, I just joined this last night, and saw your question, and decided to try to help. This is my very first post!

But -- with all of that said, the person who counts calories in and calories out and keeps a calorie deficit going WILL lose the weight, but not as fast as the person who consumes the exact same number of calories contained in more "complex" foods.

It sure is that easy. I will admit that more often than not I work out JUST to get the extra calories. Sure in the future there are lots of things to improve upon but you have to start somewhere.

In my view, that's a bad strategy and mindset. It is common to overestimate the number of calories one has burned. People exercise, they feel entitled to eat more (and physiologically, they may have cravings), they eat too much and end up undermining themselves.

If I were you, I would not exercise to eat. I would eat healthily and at an appropriate deficit, exercise as much as my time and physical condition permitted, track my weight, and eat a little more if I was hungry and could afford it. Exercise is good for you in general, but it is not believed to be that significant in weight loss. There is some evidence that it is important in weight maintenance.

IMHO, is a really bad idea. People tend to greatly overestimate how much they burn, so you'll end up eating more than you need. Don't use exercising as an excuse to eat more... it's a surefire recipe for disaster, just my 2 cents

seeing as throughout human evolution, exercise was to acquire food (you can't hunt and gather food without walking, running and killing an animal or two) - I can't see what's remotely wrong with the idea of exercising so you can eat more.

Our ancestors were constantly active to survive, to procure nutrition, the availability of which was uncertain and sometimes dangerous to obtain. They didn't "exercise to eat more."

It's what I was doing to start with. If I knew I was going out and wanted to have a few beers I'd make sure I had a nice long walk in the afternoon. Now I've been trying to look after my body for a while, I've ended up walking for the joy of it and cutting down on the beer anyway.
If that's your motivation for now good on you. Once you start you'll get hooked.

IMHO, is a really bad idea. People tend to greatly overestimate how much they burn, so you'll end up eating more than you need. Don't use exercising as an excuse to eat more... it's a surefire recipe for disaster, just my 2 cents

seeing as throughout human evolution, exercise was to acquire food (you can't hunt and gather food without walking, running and killing an animal or two) - I can't see what's remotely wrong with the idea of exercising so you can eat more.

Our ancestors were constantly active to survive, to procure nutrition, the availability of which was uncertain and sometimes dangerous to obtain. They didn't "exercise to eat more."

they might not have thought "I'm going to exercise so I can eat more" they would have thought, "I'm hungry, I need to get food" - the resulting behaviour, physically exerting themselves in order to be able to eat more, is the same. Exerting yourself more, resulting in obtaining more food. The psychological process that leads to it doesn't change the physiological reality of what was happening in terms of their behaviour and their bodies.

Also, hunter-gatherers were/are not constantly active. Modern hunter-gatherers spend about 20 hours a week hunting and gathering. The rest of the time they're lazing around socialising. They stay thin because exercise = food aquisition. Unlike industrial people who can acquire food without exercising. So the mentality of doing exercise to earn more calories to eat is really not so different to needing to exert yourself to acquire food.

IMHO, is a really bad idea. People tend to greatly overestimate how much they burn, so you'll end up eating more than you need. Don't use exercising as an excuse to eat more... it's a surefire recipe for disaster, just my 2 cents

As long as you are careful to record reasonable numbers for your calorie burns and your food log is accurate, you can eat back ALL of your exercise calories and lose weight. MFP's database tends to read very high on some exercises, though. I used a HRM and discovered that their numbers for walking come out just about right, but that I need to record only 50-60% of my TKD class calories to have it match what the HRM said. Do your homework on your exercise burns, and you can work out more to eat more.

seeing as throughout human evolution, exercise was to acquire food (you can't hunt and gather food without walking, running and killing an animal or two) - I can't see what's remotely wrong with the idea of exercising so you can eat more. It's what our ancestors have done for millions of years. Also, exercising more and eating more to support doing more exercise is the way to build a strong, healthy body, probably because that's what enabled our ancestors to survive. I think that being able to eat more is an excellent way for people to be motivated to do more exercise and get all the health benefits of exercise.

You're kidding me right? Tell me how the hell can you compare someone who has to run to catch his dinner, who would probably put up a fight to avoid becoming dinner, to the average joe who lazily walk on a treadmill, to cheat himself into beleiving that the double glazed, triple chocolate cream filled donut he's going to eat afterward is already burned... come on!

Middle and upper palaeolithic humans were top predators that were not in danger of becoming some other animal's lunch, unless they did something stupid like wandering off into deep, dark woods all by themselves like snow white, which they would have had enough sense not to do.

Lower palaeolithic humans were no more likely to end up as someone else's lunch as chimpanzees are... in fact a lot less likely as Homo sapiens hadn't evolved yet to poach them using firearms the way chimps are poached by humans nowadays.

Exercise = food aquisition. Exercise = food aquisition in the palaeolithic era, and using exercise = earning more calories to eat more nowadays is really not very different at all. It's how our bodies evolved to work... exercise, and then eat.

And saying that and using it as motivation to eat more is not the same as "kidding yourself that you already burned off some triple chocolate donut etc etc etc" nonsense.... I've already stated that you have to be honest and accurate when calculating calories, of course you have to calculate them accurately. There is absolutely nothing wrong with thinking of exercise as a means to acquire more food to eat.... it's very successful for many people, as this thread is showing...

And our palaeolithic ancestors were good enough at aquiring food that they had plenty of leisure time. Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis were capable of catching huge animals like bison and mammoths. You really think they had to catch animals like that every single day?

IMO, if someone talks about training to eat more, have already the wrong mindset, and it will, in a couple of months, starts a thread asking why is gaining weight instead of losing it... "but I train so hard".
Again, just my 2 cent.

Funny that, because the most successful long term maintainers I know are the ones that allow themselves to eat what they like in moderation, and exercise in order to be able to eat more, while those with a mentality of deprivation and self punishment get into cycles of yo-yo dieting.

I'm not disputing the necessity to be honest about calorie calculations, i.e. both calories burned and calories eaten. Of course it's not going to work if you do the maths wrong. However that doesn't mean that people who do the maths right can't make it work, or that it's a "bad mentality" or that it equates to "kidding yourself".... seriously. If you're that bad at maths and measuring things to the point that this method would never work for you, then don't do it. But don't project your inability on the rest of the human population.

Yep! At one point I had mapped out a 4 mile loop around my neighborhood that had a shopping center with a Dairy Queen and McDonald's just so I could run there and back while stopping to get ice cream. The running burned off the ice cream so it's like it never happened lol.

Exercise = food aquisition. Exercise = food aquisition in the palaeolithic era, and using exercise = earning more calories to eat more nowadays is really not very different at all. It's how our bodies evolved to work... exercise, and then eat.

Have you ever seen a bagel running away from someone? :laugh:

Funny that, because the most successful long term maintainers I know are the ones that allow themselves to eat what they like in moderation, and exercise in order to be able to eat more, while those with a mentality of deprivation and self punishment get into cycles of yo-yo dieting.

Funny that, because the majority of the new year resolutioners that I see year after year in the gym, fail because they think thay can eat more because they are exercising.
The concept exercise more=eat more is not wrong per se, but the mindset of most people is, and so is their estimation of the calories they're burning. Exercise more=eat more, can work for those who already have the right mindset and won't go overboard with food.

I'm not disputing the necessity to be honest about calorie calculations, i.e. both calories burned and calories eaten.

This is the problem IMO, most people won't be.

But don't project your inability on the rest of the human population.

My inability? Mate, I log on MFP because I'm trying to get to 10% BF before starting a lean bulk. I eat more because I exercise more, not the other way around.

As for mentality... I could rant for hours about food puritanism and the dangers of excessive restriction and how that leads to rebound overeating further down the line....

I'm with you on this, I'm not for excessive restriction and I do love my martini cocktail every now and then :laugh:

Forgive for my english, but it's not my first language

Exercise = food aquisition. Exercise = food aquisition in the palaeolithic era, and using exercise = earning more calories to eat more nowadays is really not very different at all. It's how our bodies evolved to work... exercise, and then eat.

Have you ever seen a bagel running away from someone? :laugh:

That's missing the point. The point is that nowadays people *don't* have to catch their food, which is one reason why there's an obesity epidemic now, whereas there wasn't in the palaeolithic era.

So if someone realises that the only way they can fit a bagel into their calorie goal is if they go on the treadmill and run for a bit, and they do that then eat the bagel, then they're exercising on order to be able to eat more................... which is exactly what everyone had to do in the past. In the palaoelithic era, if you didn't exercise you didn't eat. So adding a little tiny bit of that mentality into modern life is a good thing IMO, so long as the total amount you eat is enough to support your body and the exercise you do so you're strengthening your body, not weakening it.

Funny that, because the most successful long term maintainers I know are the ones that allow themselves to eat what they like in moderation, and exercise in order to be able to eat more, while those with a mentality of deprivation and self punishment get into cycles of yo-yo dieting.

Funny that, because the majority of the new year resolutioners that I see year after year in the gym, fail because they think thay can eat more because they are exercising.

Really, you mean the ones who go to the gym for a week or two and don't come back....? They're failing because they didn't stick with the programme. Maybe because they made it too difficult for themselves. I don't see how that can be related to them thinking they can eat more because they exercise........... and if someone is failing because they're overestimating calorie burns, the helpful thing to do would be to help them to calculate them more accurately.... if someone's underestimate how many calories they're eating and failing to lose weight because they're not measuring their food accurately, the first thing I'll advise them is to start weighing their food and being really careful about measuring it accurately. I won't tell them "there's no point tracking and logging food because people don't measure it carefully and just underestimate their intake and fail to lose weight"

The concept exercise more=eat more is not wrong per se, but the mindset of most people is, and so is their estimation of the calories they're burning. Exercise more=eat more, can work for those who already have the right mindset and won't go overboard with food.

So again, there's nothing wrong with the mindset of exercising more to eat more, it's people doing the maths wrong that's the problem. Bad maths doesn't come from a bad mindset, it comes from bad maths. The only difference between the two groups - those who succeed at this method and those who don't - is bad maths.

As for people who kid themselves that they are burning more than they are or whatever, they're going to kid themselves no matter what plan they're on. They're going to kid themselves that their BMR is higher than it really is so they can eat more if they stay at home and do no exercise at all. They're going to kid themselves that their eyeballed portion of food really is only 200 calories, when it's really more like 400. They're going to kid themselves that they can't exercise because their little finger got broken six years ago or some other excuse.... excuse makers make excuses. That doesn't mean that exercising to eat more is a bad strategy. It means people who kid themselves that they're doing it right when they're not are going to screw up no matter what method they use.

I'm not disputing the necessity to be honest about calorie calculations, i.e. both calories burned and calories eaten.

This is the problem IMO, most people won't be.

You assume that everyone is going to be making excuses or screwing up the maths.... that's really not a helpful basis from which to start advising people. You may as well just say "you're too stupid and lazy for this to work, therefore don't bother" to someone you've never even met.... Also, if they do screw it up because they were not honest and careful about calorie burns... that's their responsibility, not the responsibility of the one advising them, after they've told them to be careful about this.

Lots of people on this thread said in response to the question.... "yes, but you must be careful and accurate with estimating your calorie burns"... so it's not like the message about accuracy and honesty isn't getting out there.

But don't project your inability on the rest of the human population.

My inability? Mate, I log on MFP because I'm trying to get to 10% BF before starting a lean bulk. I eat more because I exercise more, not the other way around.

I meant inability in maths and I already said in the other post that I didn't mean that you were bad at maths. I think what I should have said is don't assume that everyone else is going to screw up the maths or not be honest with themselves.

I'm glad your mentality is working for you, the mentality of exercising to eat more works for many, many people as well. Personally, I exercise to get strong, and eat because I enjoy eating and because eating the right amount of calories and protein is also necessary in order to get strong. That doesn't mean that people who exercise because they want to eat more are wrong, or people who exercise because they want to look good naked or get 6 pack abs are wrong. We all have different reasons for exercising. So long as we're healthy and achieving the goals we want to achieve, it's all good.

As for mentality... I could rant for hours about food puritanism and the dangers of excessive restriction and how that leads to rebound overeating further down the line....

I'm with you on this, I'm not for excessive restriction and I do love my martini cocktail every now and then :laugh:

Forgive for my english, but it's not my first language

yeah I hate food puritanism........ and your English is better than a lot of native speakers, so don't worry about that

I walk 2.5-3 miles a night so I can have some extra calories to play with. I use an app that uses GPS to determine my distance and speed. It also tells me how many calories I burned. The problem with the calculator here is it determines a rough estimate of what you burned based on the average speed you were walking. No two nights I use the app have the exact same calorie burn as my pace varies throughout the walk. That affects the amount of calories burned.