Starvation Mode - Adaptive Thermogenesis and Weight Loss

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  • heatherloveslifting
    heatherloveslifting Posts: 1,428 Member
    Excellent!
  • ellis222
    ellis222 Posts: 59 Member
    bumping to read later
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    OK. I guess that is another decision I sort of made by default, but still justify in hindsight. My wife says my hindsight is 20/20. When she said that, I should have said... :bigsmile: Anyway, back on track, I am more of a runner than a gym rat. Not because I think cardio is better, just because I like running outside more than going to the gym and it is easier to fit in my schedule, so I actually do it. A lot of it. I have run over 300 miles since Memorial Day weekend. I have also been to the gym maybe 6 times during that same period. So cardio is a better fat burner for me because I like to run and I don't like going to the gym. Different strokes...

    I am guilty as charged of taking the word of a lot of gym rats that you can't gain muscle while eating at a deficit. It does seem to be the consensus, but I really don't have a dog in that fight and have not done any real research. Because whether it is true or not, I still won't like the gym very much.

    I think you may have hit on another effect for you then, endurance cardio and great fitness level.

    If you research VO2max test results of athletes and people willing to share, and find the ones that had a Bodpod or hydrostatic weighing done to determine LBM well, you'll find their tested resting RMR is lower than expected for the LBM.

    And these are usually folks not on a diet.

    My own test results came out 200 lower than LBM would indicate. Considering I was eating reasonable at level based on Katch BMR, I wasn't in a diet for a while. I was training, so I was cool with that because it led to great performance. Should have known that though.

    Anyway, with all your running, I'll bet you have great fitness level and VO2max, and likely you are burning more than you believe. But combined with lower RMR, it's evening out.

    You ever do a treadmill test against a formula to see what you burn? Your app may be right on. Notice how close in calories the running part was.
    http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/774337-how-to-test-hrm-for-how-accurate-calorie-burn-is
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Evgeni,
    Sure hate I missed your wall posting on this, over the weekend of my training, not much on here at all.

    Great article and references, had couple of those in store already but never written out with info.

    I do wonder about the amount of deficit too. Have to find the study where a reasonable deficit as the only factor led to retain LBM or muscle mass, not sure which one they measured since that does matter.

    But no resistance training as usual, or higher protein either.

    I wonder if that much of a reasonable deficit would be on the low end of the AT range.

    So I guess the gals that don't adjust their calories down, and accidentally do TDEE for some weeks before lowering calories are actually helping themselves, if they didn't do too much harm in the first place.
  • trixiemou
    trixiemou Posts: 554 Member
    Got to Bump this, there is so much to read and learn!
  • telepathe
    telepathe Posts: 34
    Really great post! A question though... how come then lots of folks break through their plateaus by eating more? What's going on there?
  • joshdann
    joshdann Posts: 618 Member
    what's going on is something besides simply eating more calories, most of the time. Sometimes people get more energy and end up working out harder. Sometimes people drop water weight because of the added food, and that small reduction in weight makes them think they have magically broken through the plateau and.. end up working out harder. And in some cases there is a real metabolic readjustment stemming from the influx of food, and that results in a more efficient burning of calories. For most people that will take more than a few days of eating more, and will usually result in gaining a bit before any more fat is lost. Of course the water weight dropped through this process can mask that effect.

    This is all based on literature I've read recently from some very well respected fitness experts, and their info is based on scientific research. remember that correlation does not equal causation. In other words "I did this thing, then this thing happened" does not always mean that thing one caused thing 2. People tend to ignore this scientific fact because it feels better to have uncovered some secret, and it definitely feels good to think that eating more food will cause you to lose weight. We wouldn't be here if we didn't enjoy eating lots of food, now would we? ;)

    There are, of course, some real benefits from maintaining a smaller deficit. These benefits are longer term, and for most people (like me) not worth the extra time it takes to lose the fat when eating at a small deficit. Those long-term benefits are likely what spawned the concept of eating more to break through plateaus... and before I did some real research I also used that technique with some success. Now I understand the actual physiology and psychology of what was going on, and I don't plan to do it again. It likely won't hurt you if you want to try it to, and if it helps you in some way (and you are okay with losing a bit of ground to get yourself back on track) then I say go for it. This process is as much (possibly more) mental as it is physical, so... whatever it takes, IMO.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
    Really great post! A question though... how come then lots of folks break through their plateaus by eating more? What's going on there?

    Water weight and better adherence generally imo.
  • Buddhasmiracle
    Buddhasmiracle Posts: 925 Member
    bump
  • 55in13
    55in13 Posts: 1,091 Member
    Really great post! A question though... how come then lots of folks break through their plateaus by eating more? What's going on there?
    You have been given a couple of answers and I will throw out one more - the elephant in the room. Many people say they are eating more when they actually are eating less. They were sneaking food before and they come across this explanation and it gives them an opportunity to get a fresh start without having to admit they caused the plateau. It's more appealing to be the victim than the perpetrator. I am not saying this always happens, but it happens a lot. Inaccuracy in logging, purposeful or not, is far and away the largest cause of stalled weight loss.
  • tigerblue
    tigerblue Posts: 1,526 Member
    I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

    It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

    But it sounds like this is temporary.

    So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.
  • TheOneandOnlyPanda
    TheOneandOnlyPanda Posts: 19 Member
    Interesting post. I'll have to read through the whole thing when I get a chance.
  • swillybay
    swillybay Posts: 61 Member
    Thanks for taking the time to write it - finally something logical and understandable.
  • joshdann
    joshdann Posts: 618 Member
    I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

    It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

    But it sounds like this is temporary.

    So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

    You really should just go get your BMR measured so you know if you are even in the ballpark of what you think your "TDEE" is.
  • thebrock7
    thebrock7 Posts: 24 Member
    looks great - bump to give proper attention later
  • tigerblue
    tigerblue Posts: 1,526 Member
    I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

    It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

    But it sounds like this is temporary.

    So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

    You really should just go get your BMR measured so you know if you are even in the ballpark of what you think your "TDEE" is.

    Yes I would like to do the teting and maybe I can eventually.

    But perhaps I should be mor clear.

    I am comparing my TDEE calculation from the various calculators (1700-1900) and my Bodymedia (2200) to my actual real-world results. When I do the math, based on four months of careful tracking of food and exercise and actual weight, It looks like my TDEE calculates at about 1560. I did that using weight gain/loss over four months and the premise that one pound lost/gained is 3500 calories of deficit/surplus.

    So the real world results ARE my TDEE. The problem is it doesnt match the calculators. So I have been asking "why?"", and ""what can I do about it?".
  • mushroomsontoast
    mushroomsontoast Posts: 118 Member
    Bump for later - very informative, thank you for compiling all that into one post :smile:
  • mcanavan05
    mcanavan05 Posts: 210 Member
    A great read , thanks for posting ! :smile:
    3 months in I did a diet break - a week netting maintenance - I file it under "can't hurt, might help".

    Week netting maintenance, can you explain.. i went from 224 to 206..back to 210-215 over a year.. working on trending down again from 215...Aug 2012-2013.. in between there i watch cal but not food type..bar food, etc.. eating clean produce, fruits less processed and may have already started to trend downward.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    Evgeni,
    Sure hate I missed your wall posting on this, over the weekend of my training, not much on here at all.

    Great article and references, had couple of those in store already but never written out with info.

    I do wonder about the amount of deficit too. Have to find the study where a reasonable deficit as the only factor led to retain LBM or muscle mass, not sure which one they measured since that does matter.

    But no resistance training as usual, or higher protein either.

    I wonder if that much of a reasonable deficit would be on the low end of the AT range.

    So I guess the gals that don't adjust their calories down, and accidentally do TDEE for some weeks before lowering calories are actually helping themselves, if they didn't do too much harm in the first place.
    Most likely, that type of plateau is probably similar to eating at the lower end of maintenance. I'm not certain but this is perhaps the point where upping to the higher end of maintenance helps before dong a further cut. It's a generalization and not necessarily useful on the individual basis.
  • SanteMulberry
    SanteMulberry Posts: 3,202 Member
    A great read , thanks for posting ! :smile:
    3 months in I did a diet break - a week netting maintenance - I file it under "can't hurt, might help".

    Yeah--I was getting pretty frustrated with calorie-restriction while trying to exercise more--just wasn't happening--too tired and my fat stores were NOT budging. I have been eating at maintenance for about three months now and have bumped up my exercise and weight training. I feel much better and have been slowly losing what I think is mostly body fat as the small weight loss (about a pound per month) has caused a visible reduction in body fat stores and smaller clothing sizes. I never would have imagined that losing just three pounds could make so much difference. AND I never thought I could have so much energy while losing body fat! :smile:

    ETA: By the way, I have shifted the balance of my macros a bit from what I had formerly. I am eating a little less protein (when I eat too much protein, I get gout attacks). I eat the amount of protein that I would eat to maintain my estimated LBM at a lower weight. I eat a little bit more carbs than I was eating before (to cover my increased exercise) but I never eat more than 120 grams per day. Hopefully, in that way my body is forced to burn fat for the extra calories to cover the exercise rather than burning carbs alone to fuel the exercise (which seems to be what is going on when I eat more than 120 grams). I still eat a large proportion of my calories in "good" fats.
  • jb_2011
    jb_2011 Posts: 1,029 Member
    Great stuff thanks. I've held steady a full year at 67lbs lost, can't seem to drop the last 10, though. I'll share this post with others I know who are in the same boat.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
    Finally got around to reading this thread.

    Question: based on what was posted in the initial set of posts, it would suggest that highly trained athletes would also have a lower REE than that predicted for the general population (normalized for lean body mass, of course). Is that in fact the case?
  • DeeDee2211
    DeeDee2211 Posts: 1,133 Member
    Thanks for the post!
  • heybales
    heybales Posts: 18,842 Member
    Finally got around to reading this thread.

    Question: based on what was posted in the initial set of posts, it would suggest that highly trained athletes would also have a lower REE than that predicted for the general population (normalized for lean body mass, of course). Is that in fact the case?

    Yes. That being endurance cardio athletes. Strength related athletes continue to maintain just fine.

    Couple ways to tell if it might apply.
    Low morning resting HR - like below 50.
    Fast HR recovery after exercise, like you stop and from elevated HR you drop 50 bpm in 1 or 2 min.

    Of course, must start on the high side of eating - if you have already caused some AT to happen, then your RMR would be lower for that reason too.
  • ashleyisgreat
    ashleyisgreat Posts: 586 Member
    Bumping to read later. I cannot tell you how excited I am to see research on here.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

    It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

    But it sounds like this is temporary.

    So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

    Basically I would recommend that you purposely eat at your effective TDEE (maintenance) to take a diet break from what you have determined and do strength training to increase LBM - increase in LBM is the single most effective factor in BMR changes.

    - diet breaks have positive effects and allow for overall better adherence. This is not an invitation to eat everything just at maintenance.
    - figure out a training routine that is progressive strength training - this can take a few months to determine and practice properly.
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    I think that this perhaps explains what has happened to me, and why I cant maintain on a reasonable amount of calories (for my height and weight).

    It is comforting to have my suspicions confirmed. I am not crazy just because I cant seem to eat at TDEE according to the charts without a quick and substantial weight gain.

    But it sounds like this is temporary.

    So bottom line--how do I fix it, and how long will it take? Ive been trying to maintain now for 3 years, and have slowly gained while eating several hundred under my TDEE.

    You really should just go get your BMR measured so you know if you are even in the ballpark of what you think your "TDEE" is.

    Yes I would like to do the teting and maybe I can eventually.

    But perhaps I should be mor clear.

    I am comparing my TDEE calculation from the various calculators (1700-1900) and my Bodymedia (2200) to my actual real-world results. When I do the math, based on four months of careful tracking of food and exercise and actual weight, It looks like my TDEE calculates at about 1560. I did that using weight gain/loss over four months and the premise that one pound lost/gained is 3500 calories of deficit/surplus.

    So the real world results ARE my TDEE. The problem is it doesnt match the calculators. So I have been asking "why?"", and ""what can I do about it?".

    The other effect over time is exercise efficiency - the same exercise for someone doing it a long time is that the calorie burns decrease as we become athletic - the body thrives on efficiency! Choices:

    - increase frequency or intensity - but this isn't always possible and creates a significant risk of injury
    - increase LBM as posted before
    - diet further - yuck, plus risk of nutrient issues and not really the best long term solution.

    So ... Work on LBM ...
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    A great read , thanks for posting ! :smile:
    3 months in I did a diet break - a week netting maintenance - I file it under "can't hurt, might help".

    Week netting maintenance, can you explain.. i went from 224 to 206..back to 210-215 over a year.. working on trending down again from 215...Aug 2012-2013.. in between there i watch cal but not food type..bar food, etc.. eating clean produce, fruits less processed and may have already started to trend downward.

    A week of netting maintenance means that the person ate at maintenance calories for the week including exercise needs. For example if your general TDEE is 2000 but that week you are also adding 300 from extra exercise (above habitual activity included in the 2000) then eating 2300 would be "netting maintenance".
  • EvgeniZyntx
    EvgeniZyntx Posts: 24,208 Member
    Finally got around to reading this thread.

    Question: based on what was posted in the initial set of posts, it would suggest that highly trained athletes would also have a lower REE than that predicted for the general population (normalized for lean body mass, of course). Is that in fact the case?

    Yes. That being endurance cardio athletes. Strength related athletes continue to maintain just fine.

    Couple ways to tell if it might apply.
    Low morning resting HR - like below 50.
    Fast HR recovery after exercise, like you stop and from elevated HR you drop 50 bpm in 1 or 2 min.

    Of course, must start on the high side of eating - if you have already caused some AT to happen, then your RMR would be lower for that reason too.

    Well, certainly have a lower EE for a given activity but a lower RMR (corrected for LBM)? I would think so... Yet some research shows the opposite.

    See this table

    A5Ydh4jl.jpg

    From http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/5/793.full.pdf

    Is a bit older and sample size is limited (9) but it suggests the RMR was higher in the trained individuals. Comments, or other research?
  • theoriginaljayne
    theoriginaljayne Posts: 559 Member
    Great post. Thank you.

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