Ahhh Heart Rate Monitor Vs Cardio Machine Calories Burned

Options
2»

Replies

  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    Options
    If the heart rate monitor has a chest strap go with what that says. These are pretty accurate because you can log in all your personal info such as: sex, age, height, weight. Also it calculates according to your heart rate while you are exercising and I don't believe any machines do that. At least from everything I have read. Good luck to you!

    Except that, aside from weight, none of that has any direct impact on calorie burns.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    Options
    @ Jack - So how do you calculate calories burned?

    You can't, all you can do is estimate. My point is 2 fold:

    1) in many cases, cardio machines will estimate more accurately than HRMs.
    2) HRMs are not some miracle device that so many people think they are.
  • MissTattoo
    MissTattoo Posts: 1,203 Member
    Options
    My machines at the gym pretty much matched up to my HRM. The machine allowed me to enter my gender, height, and weight.

    MFP however was grossly over estimating.

    9b7ef76f-bdf1-471d-920c-fbeffbcc4c70_zps92e021c8.jpg
  • antdogs
    antdogs Posts: 191 Member
    Options
    My machines at the gym pretty much matched up to my HRM. The machine allowed me to enter my gender, height, and weight.

    MFP however was grossly over estimating.

    9b7ef76f-bdf1-471d-920c-fbeffbcc4c70_zps92e021c8.jpg

    yeah my machine doesn't on elliptical says weight and time
  • shannonahenderson
    Options
    I just had this same issue...you all provided some really great info but I'm going to do some research on my own. The machines always project more calories burned than the HRM. I am leaning more toward my HRM being more accurate since it is set to my weight, age, height, DOB, etc.

    But we'll see...
  • rassha01
    rassha01 Posts: 534 Member
    Options
    Use the one that knows you better, pretty simple. I used to run on a treadmill that did not ask anything and was usually 50-100 cals higher than what my HRM said. I think the more personal info input to the equation, the better the resulting info. JMHO though!
  • kdd95
    kdd95 Posts: 2 Member
    Options
    I find that my HRM & the machines usually show the same burn, fortunately
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
    Options
    There is no set answer. Exercise machines are programmed with different algorithms. Some, like treadmills, are well established and accurate, some are not.

    You cannot make a blanket statement about "machines" vs "HRMs", because within each category, there are variations. Another variable is the accuracy of the setup information one programs into an HRM (in the vast majority of people, the setup information is only a rough approximation). And lastly, you have different, non-exercise variables -- thermal stress, illness, cardiovascular drift, type of muscle movement to name a few -- that can affect heart rate and distort the HR/VO2 relationship upon which HRM calorie estimates are based.

    In short, most people don't really know.

    The OP is showing a picture of a Life Fitness Integrity cross trainer. That model is the newest iteration of the LF9500HRR, the first Life Fitness rear-drive cross trainer which was first sold in 2000. While there have been a number of upgrades since that time, the software and the algorithms used to estimate calories are older and have always overestimated. Other models have been introduced since that time, but this one is the most reliable, is extremely durable, and has a great price-point. Therefore, it is still the preferred model for most health clubs.

    Life Fitness produced another model, the 95X cross trainer, 2004. That used a version of the old software as well. It was not well-received nor well-executed. A number of people lost their jobs over it, and they finally discontinued the model in 2008 (although it is still manufactured and sold in Europe). In trying to make the design work, they modified the movement and also upgraded the software. This time the calorie algorithms were derived from research they did in their own biomechanical lab, and were specific to the machine and the movement. I forget the software revision number, but if you find one of those, your calorie readings will be very accurate--as accurate as I have seen on any exercise machine. They are about 25%-30% less than comparable readings with the older software (on the Integrity model).

    One of the biggest fallacies in fitness is the idea that an HRM is more accurate "because is knows you". People mistakenly think that HRMs are more individualized and accurate because they ask you to input more variables.

    Wrong.

    HRMs have to ask for more variables to try to make up for the inherent shortcomings of their methodology. They need more data inputs to attempt to improve the "fit" of the equations to the wide scatter of data received during their validation studies.
    They need to play mathematical games because they do not measure anything but heart rate, and trying to fit heart rate into a calorie prediction model is like trying to stuff an agitated python into a burlap sack.

    If you:

    1). Have a quality-brand HRM with years of original research supporting its calorie-estimating algorithms (which knocks out most HRM brands right off the bat)

    2) Have input the HRM with your ACTUAL maximum heart rate (not calculated) and your ACTUAL VO2 max, and ACTUAL resting HR, along with the other data.

    3) Are performing relatively simple, steady-state aerobic exercise, and are not using ANY handrail or other support

    4) Are performing relatively simple, steady-state aerobic exercise that does not involve a lot of upper-body movement or isometric movement, or higher resistance

    5) Are not affected by caffeine or other stimulants, fatigue, or illness

    6) Are exercising in a thermally-neutral environment with optimum temperature and humidity

    7) Do not experience significant cardiovascular drift during your workout

    THEN

    Your HRM calorie estimate should be reasonably close--maybe within 10 or 15% of the actual number. And that also assumes that as ANY of your parameters change--weight, resting HR, VO2 max -- you update the settings on the HRM.

    If any of those conditions are not met, then your HRM will be off -- maybe by a little, maybe by more than 50%-70%.

    So use them for whatever value they provide, but be realistic about the numbers you are getting. And drop the idea that your HRM is somehow inherently more accurate that the machine, just because the HRM numbers are different. The HRM manufacturers want you to believe that, but they are blowing smoke up your wazoo.

    And, in the overall scheme of things, a 50-100 calorie discrepancy is meaningless. It's a flicker, a blip, random chance, whatever you want to call it, but it is not significant.
  • antdogs
    antdogs Posts: 191 Member
    Options
    There is no set answer. Exercise machines are programmed with different algorithms. Some, like treadmills, are well established and accurate, some are not.

    You cannot make a blanket statement about "machines" vs "HRMs", because within each category, there are variations. Another variable is the accuracy of the setup information one programs into an HRM (in the vast majority of people, the setup information is only a rough approximation). And lastly, you have different, non-exercise variables -- thermal stress, illness, cardiovascular drift, type of muscle movement to name a few -- that can affect heart rate and distort the HR/VO2 relationship upon which HRM calorie estimates are based.

    In short, most people don't really know.

    The OP is showing a picture of a Life Fitness Integrity cross trainer. That model is the newest iteration of the LF9500HRR, the first Life Fitness rear-drive cross trainer which was first sold in 2000. While there have been a number of upgrades since that time, the software and the algorithms used to estimate calories are older and have always overestimated. Other models have been introduced since that time, but this one is the most reliable, is extremely durable, and has a great price-point. Therefore, it is still the preferred model for most health clubs.

    Life Fitness produced another model, the 95X cross trainer, 2004. That used a version of the old software as well. It was not well-received nor well-executed. A number of people lost their jobs over it, and they finally discontinued the model in 2008 (although it is still manufactured and sold in Europe). In trying to make the design work, they modified the movement and also upgraded the software. This time the calorie algorithms were derived from research they did in their own biomechanical lab, and were specific to the machine and the movement. I forget the software revision number, but if you find one of those, your calorie readings will be very accurate--as accurate as I have seen on any exercise machine. They are about 25%-30% less than comparable readings with the older software (on the Integrity model).

    One of the biggest fallacies in fitness is the idea that an HRM is more accurate "because is knows you". People mistakenly think that HRMs are more individualized and accurate because they ask you to input more variables.

    Wrong.

    HRMs have to ask for more variables to try to make up for the inherent shortcomings of their methodology. They need more data inputs to attempt to improve the "fit" of the equations to the wide scatter of data received during their validation studies.
    They need to play mathematical games because they do not measure anything but heart rate, and trying to fit heart rate into a calorie prediction model is like trying to stuff an agitated python into a burlap sack.

    If you:

    1). Have a quality-brand HRM with years of original research supporting its calorie-estimating algorithms (which knocks out most HRM brands right off the bat)

    2) Have input the HRM with your ACTUAL maximum heart rate (not calculated) and your ACTUAL VO2 max, and ACTUAL resting HR, along with the other data.

    3) Are performing relatively simple, steady-state aerobic exercise, and are not using ANY handrail or other support

    4) Are performing relatively simple, steady-state aerobic exercise that does not involve a lot of upper-body movement or isometric movement, or higher resistance

    5) Are not affected by caffeine or other stimulants, fatigue, or illness

    6) Are exercising in a thermally-neutral environment with optimum temperature and humidity

    7) Do not experience significant cardiovascular drift during your workout

    THEN

    Your HRM calorie estimate should be reasonably close--maybe within 10 or 15% of the actual number. And that also assumes that as ANY of your parameters change--weight, resting HR, VO2 max -- you update the settings on the HRM.

    If any of those conditions are not met, then your HRM will be off -- maybe by a little, maybe by more than 50%-70%.

    So use them for whatever value they provide, but be realistic about the numbers you are getting. And drop the idea that your HRM is somehow inherently more accurate that the machine, just because the HRM numbers are different. The HRM manufacturers want you to believe that, but they are blowing smoke up your wazoo.

    And, in the overall scheme of things, a 50-100 calorie discrepancy is meaningless. It's a flicker, a blip, random chance, whatever you want to call it, but it is not significant.

    ahhh thank you!
  • nicolej1016
    nicolej1016 Posts: 89 Member
    Options
    adzaz, antdogs, & jacksonpt,

    Thank you VERY much! Your description of the limitations of the HRM were very helpful. From many other posts on MFP, it was almost as if the HRM was the 'gold-standard' in trying to determine what calories have been burned. I know MFP over-estimates calories burned, I do not need to spend $100-300 for another piece of technology that also over-estimates.

    You have just saved me some money! Especially you, adzaz! Great explaination! :)

    That said, do any of you know if there is a way to more accurately estimate how many calories are burned? I do not work out on a treadmill; I do strength training, cardio, interval training -- all in instructor led classes.

    Thanks again! :)
  • missbazzie
    missbazzie Posts: 5 Member
    Options
    antdogs - and anyone else who could help...

    What would be a considerable discrepancy? My HRM sometimes estimates as much as 200 calories more than what the ellipticals/Arcs/treadmills estimate. Example: This mornings workout was on an elliptical for 35 minutes with my avg bmp around 146 which is about 70% of my max HR. The machine calculated 244 calories burned, but my HRM calculated 457 calories burned. That's a difference of 213. On the other hand, MFP and other online calorie calculators estimate 404-439 for 35 minutes on an elliptical.

    I'm not worried about a few calories, but 200+ is the equivalent of my snack calories and I don't want to put my body into a starvation mode because I'm eating too few each day.

    I'm already averaging between the 2 numbers. So for example, today I logged 350 calories for cardio in MFP.
    Does anyone have a better suggestion?
  • phjorg1
    phjorg1 Posts: 642 Member
    Options
    Does your hrm know your tested hrmax and vo2max? If not I would trust the machine more.
  • jacksonpt
    jacksonpt Posts: 10,413 Member
    Options
    Unfortunately, there is no way to really know whether a given device (machine, HRM, website) is over or under estimating, or by how much. The formulas they use vary greatly, and the formulas are ultimately the determining factors for accuracy.

    In some cases, some devices are "generally accepted" to be using "more accurate" formulas/methods... but to what extent that's true is hard to say. Garmin seems to get touted as the most accurate right now, but who knows for sure.

    IMO, the best thing you can do is to pick 1 source for estimating calorie burns. Use that 1 source consistently for a month or so, logging food and activity as accurately as you can. Then, after a month's time, evaluate things by comparing expected results with actual results. Depending on how closely they match up, you can tweak your estimating appropriately.