getting frustrated, doing it wrong or being impatient?

Troublemonster · September 2013

I have been on a small surplus bulk since about April 1 of this year. I cut fifty pounds to 198 and now, as of this morning was only 206.6.
I am 6'3" and lift heavy with high volume on a 5/3/1+accessories 4 days per week with a bonus arm/random day thrown in on Saturdays. I do little to no cardio and when I do it is an easy jog @9 minute mile pace of 30-45 minutes once to twice per week. More often than not I don't do it though.

I have stepped up from 2800-3000 and 3200 this month. I am at at least 200g protein and now am shooting at more like 240 and keeping fats at or below 100g. The front pictures are all flexed and post workout. I do measurements and photos around the first of each month and I am not sure I am seeing much growth.

Am I being impatient.overly critical, or is my progress less than one might expect 5 months into intentional gain, or is this about what one can expect over this time period?

I am considering ending this bulk and cutting back to 190 or so then starting over but don't want to be hasty about that since summer is ending and my wife is not yet disgusted by me.

Any input is welcome, thanks.

back in April at about 200lbs

front in April

back this month 207 on measurement day

front this month

tbrain1989 · September 2013

although i do think you might be being harsh on yourself with the time scale,

one thing to bear in mind, 5/3/1 is a strength orientated program, i dont think it does much for gaining size,

if you want to build size you need to really break down the smaller muscle fibers with close range movements at a medium rep range,

i know strength and size seem like the same thing, but they really arent, if you want to be a 200lb strong man, then 5/3/1 is the way forward.

but if you want to be a 250lb man mountain, then i would look at some pyramid type work outs

just a thought and change is nearly as good as a rest

Snow3y · September 2013

It will most certainly take time to gain clean muscle mass mate.. Unless you're on something, you can't really expect to gain pure muscle of more than 1-2lbs a month... even that might be quite high..

If you're not noticing ANY weight gain in months to come, then consider upping your calorie intake by 100-200 calories, wait a few weeks and match it up to how it suites you in terms of weight gain..

@ first responce to this question... the 5/3/1 is actually great to pack on some size, it's actually ideal what I'd use to build a good foundation when coming out of a cut, and wanting to put on some strength and size.
You're forgetting many important factors that affect muscle size, strength and density.. Such as time under tension..

@ OP: Your protein intake is pretty high, may I ask what your carb intake is like?

StrictlyPro · September 2013

where to start. i think ill just start throwing things out at random. whether or not you get big on 5/3/1 depends on the exact template you use. BBB will get you plenty big. op said high volume so i assume it is a template that should bring size. op: you could probably have gained weight a little faster. shooting for .5lb\week would be pretty good which would have put you gaining a bit over 10lbs total vs the 8.6 you have gained. I agree protein is already much higher than you need at 200, no reason to go to 240 unless you just really love eating meat, which I could certainly understand. When you consume way more protein than you need, your body is just going to convert some of it to glucose anyway, so you could have gone with a cheaper carb instead. but, there is no harm in eating that much if you just really love protein type foods.

chrisrennert · September 2013

Honestly, at your size, I believe you are undershooting your calories quite a bit, especially with your cardio work in. Using a progressive over load routine, such as Madcows (http://stronglifts.com/madcow-5x5-training-programs/) , and making sure you are eating at 20% over maintenance "to start", you will put on muscle.

As a previous poster had said, muscle will go on, but you have to have the fuel there for your body to build it. If you think you're going to build, and burn fat (without drugs), it just isn't going to happen. I'd personally do away with the cardio (or up your calories to compensate for it, which really begs to question why you'd be doing it in the first place then).

I've just accomplished what you are trying to achieve. After last seasons Semi-pro football season ended, and my body healed, I was at about 170lbs. I spent the new months bulking, using a 5x5 routine (such as the one posted above), and bulked to ~205lbs. My strength went through the roof. I'm 5'7", and now about 189, but I bench over 315, squat about 350, and deadlift around 385 (all maxes). The strength came with the progressive overloads each week, and with the strength came visible changes in muscle mass. Be patient, if you are putting on strength at your calorie level, then you are putting on muscle, if you are losing strength on a progressive overload, you're probably losing some muscle, and your calories are too low.

Here's a Youtube channel that I watch daily. If you can, go back and watch his older videos first, and then catch up over time.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyFjLgx8KwCx7RXKBbnphpg

Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

Troublemonster · September 2013

Thanks to all who replied. I kind of thought I was just being impatient and it's hard to allow myself some fat gain after working so hard to cut it off the first time.

My protein is that high because when i increased calories i needed to get them from somewhere. I very often will not fill the quota of protein. P/F/C is 240/89/360 at the moment but basically as long as I am staying within 10% on my fats I don't worry too much about hitting the full 240.

On my lifting I add high rep volume into it by doing pyramids after my 5.3.1 work and other accessory stuff on all my lifting days. For example, today my 5/3/1 work was shoulder press then I did chins, decline bench, and triceps work. Strength gains are coming all the time on the 5/3/1's at the prescribed rates with small fluctuations from week to week which I attribute to bad days of sleep and not so great eating here and there (low nutrition days etc).

For those saying I don't need 200g protein then what would you suggest I try for? I'm willing to give just about anything a shot for a few weeks to a month.

StrictlyPro · September 2013

Thanks to all who replied. I kind of thought I was just being impatient and it's hard to allow myself some fat gain after working so hard to cut it off the first time.

My protein is that high because when i increased calories i needed to get them from somewhere. I very often will not fill the quota of protein. P/F/C is 240/89/360 at the moment but basically as long as I am staying within 10% on my fats I don't worry too much about hitting the full 240.

On my lifting I add high rep volume into it by doing pyramids after my 5.3.1 work and other accessory stuff on all my lifting days. For example, today my 5/3/1 work was shoulder press then I did chins, decline bench, and triceps work. Strength gains are coming all the time on the 5/3/1's at the prescribed rates with small fluctuations from week to week which I attribute to bad days of sleep and not so great eating here and there (low nutrition days etc).

For those saying I don't need 200g protein then what would you suggest I try for? I'm willing to give just about anything a shot for a few weeks to a month.

Bare minimum of .82 grams per pound of your lean body mass IF it is all from very high quality sources. Going up to 1 gram makes up for any lack of quality with quantity and makes thinking about the quality of sources unnecessary. That said there is nothing wrong with going over by 100 grams if you want to; it just isn't necessary.

Troublemonster · September 2013

Here's a Youtube channel that I watch daily. If you can, go back and watch his older videos first, and then catch up over time.

http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCyFjLgx8KwCx7RXKBbnphpg

Created by MyFitnessPal.com - Free Calorie Counter

All of your advice was well taken and I am considering going higher again at the end of this month pending results this month. However, I used to be a subscriber to icecreamfitness and dropped it when every video started to be about fake natural blah blah blaha (see what I did there?), and youtube middle-school-style drama. It was about as much fun as reading arguments on any other message board.

So, if I am going to go up in calories by another couple hundred and I supposed to be going over 400g of carbs per day? If I stay at or around 180-200g protein and under 100 in fats then I am going to be pushing 500g carbs at some point. I work hard in the gym but dang that seems like a lot.

keithemp · September 2013

So, if I am going to go up in calories by another couple hundred and I supposed to be going over 400g of carbs per day? If I stay at or around 180-200g protein and under 100 in fats then I am going to be pushing 500g carbs at some point. I work hard in the gym but dang that seems like a lot.

You can go over on protein and fats, but try not to go over too much. As for the carbs, it is alot, but make sure you eat mostly good carbs (fruit, vegetables, whole wheats). I use the 80/20 rule in that 80% of my nutrients need to come from good, healthy whole food sources, and 20% can come from less healthy sources (ie - ice cream, cereal, pop tarts). Getting to your carb requirement can be tough as I have a hard time hitting my daily goal of 365g of carbs. I'm trying the supplement route just to make up the last 50g or so.

Currently I'm trying Waxy Maize, but will probably switch to dextrose powder to reach my carb limit. From what I've read, dextrose is really good pre and post workout for energy and muscle absorption.

Siege_Tank · September 2013

I have been on a small surplus bulk since about April 1 of this year. I cut fifty pounds to 198 and now, as of this morning was only 206.6.

I am 6'3" and lift heavy with high volume on a 5/3/1+accessories 4 days per week with a bonus arm/random day thrown in on Saturdays. I do little to no cardio

+ accessories and a bonus/random day?? I'll get to that, but first let me ask:

What is your current strength capacity, and how much has it grown since you started bulking? Not to disagree with the other posters in here, but strength is one of the best indicators of size growth. If you can lift 200 lbs in a bench press now, opposed to a 150 lb bench press when you started... that gain in performance doesn't just come from muscle efficiency.

Are you measuring your body everywhere? If no, go over to Bodybuilding.com right now and make a bodyspace profile, if for no other reason than they have a place for you to record your daily lift weight, your current measurements/weight, and tons of information.

Which lifts are you performing? Seriously, I stick to the core basic lifts. Pull ups, Bench Press, Squat, Deadlift. Sometimes wrist/dumbbell curls to improve my grip and forearm strength when my bird-like t-rex arms fail me on the Deadlift. There should be a specific reason for every supplemental movement you perform.

Phrases like bonus/random day lead me to believe that you might be drifting. I hate wasting time, effort and energy, and once I realized that I only need to perform minimal movements at maximum effort, my world got so much better.

I lift squats, deadlifts, and bench presses in reverse pyramid style, starting with my highest weight as my top set after my warm up, and reducing the weight while increasing the reps as my muscle tire. 3 days a week.

In the past 3 months, I have added 25 lbs to each of the big 3. Eating in a shortsighted, stupid deficit. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know *kitten*, but it just seems logical to lift with maximum effort, and progressively overload your body with full body lift movements, adding weight every week or every other week, 5 lbs at a time.

Yes, I am that goober who breaks out the 2.5 lb plates.

http://www.leangains.com/2011/09/f*ckarounditis.html

---> replace the * with a u above.

Siege_Tank · September 2013

To put it another way, as a general guideline, common benchmarks or initial goals to set and attain would be something like this:

Strength Goals: Intermediate

Bench press: body weight x 1.2

Chin-ups or pull-ups: body weight x 1.2 or 8 reps with body weight.

Squat: body weight x 1.6

Deadlift: body weight x 2

These numbers are for a raw (no straps, belt or knee wraps) single repetition.

so in your case, at 205 lbs, rounded to the nearest ten, your first goals should be:

Bench Press: 250
Squat: 330
Deadlift: 410

And advanced strength goals would be bodyweight x 1.5, 2, & 2.5 going down the list.

Bench Press: 310
Squat: 410
Deadlift: 510

But you're 205 lbs of lean muscle, if you're bf% is 15%, that would mean your lean body mass is something around 180 lbs... @_@

haleypayerchin · September 2013

I have been trying for about two months to lose weight and I have not seen any results. I am starting to get really frustrated and its making my self confidence go down even farther. I wanted to lose 20 pounds by christmas and I havent lost any! I dont know if I am doing something wrong or what??

Troublemonster · September 2013

+ accessories and a bonus/random day?? I'll get to that, but first let me ask:

What is your current strength capacity, and how much has it grown since you started bulking? Not to disagree with the other posters in here, but strength is one of the best indicators of size growth. If you can lift 200 lbs in a bench press now, opposed to a 150 lb bench press when you started... that gain in performance doesn't just come from muscle efficiency.

Are you measuring your body everywhere? If no, go over to Bodybuilding.com right now and make a bodyspace profile, if for no other reason than they have a place for you to record your daily lift weight, your current measurements/weight, and tons of information.

Which lifts are you performing? Seriously, I stick to the core basic lifts. Pull ups, Bench Press, Squat, Deadlift. Sometimes wrist/dumbbell curls to improve my grip and forearm strength when my bird-like t-rex arms fail me on the Deadlift. There should be a specific reason for every supplemental movement you perform.

Phrases like bonus/random day lead me to believe that you might be drifting. I hate wasting time, effort and energy, and once I realized that I only need to perform minimal movements at maximum effort, my world got so much better.

I lift squats, deadlifts, and bench presses in reverse pyramid style, starting with my highest weight as my top set after my warm up, and reducing the weight while increasing the reps as my muscle tire. 3 days a week.

In the past 3 months, I have added 25 lbs to each of the big 3. Eating in a shortsighted, stupid deficit. I'll be the first to admit that I don't know *kitten*, but it just seems logical to lift with maximum effort, and progressively overload your body with full body lift movements, adding weight every week or every other week, 5 lbs at a time.

Yes, I am that goober who breaks out the 2.5 lb plates.

http://www.leangains.com/2011/09/f*ckarounditis.html

---> replace the * with a u above.

Holy hell, this is a lot of info, thanks so much for taking the time to type that out.

I too like the basics and am all about squat, bench, deads, pull ups, over head presses. I don't do a lot of curling but I do add them on my upper body days. I am making strength gains pretty consistently and have kept up with the 5/3/1 cycles without failing yet. I just finished week 3 of cycle 6. I can deadlift 2x BW but I am not there yet with squats or presses. I guess the more I think about what I was asking, what I really wanted to know was:

:Do I look like I am making progress based on these photos 5 months apart?

I know it's a vain question to ask but I am concerned about getting too soft during this bulk partially because of my paranoia about getting overly fat again and partially because my duty belt is not cheap to replace and I don't have room to adjust the buckle more than another notch or so.

So, if I AM doing it wrong I was going to cut down and start over the right way but it looks like I can probably just make a couple of adjustments and continue while keeping measurements and photos to monitor myself.

A good example of my lifting routine would be today:
I hit deadlifts for 2 warmups and 6 working sets (today was 5,3,1+ day so (I hit 315x5,350x3,395x3,375x3,315x8,225x8), then did 3 sets of rack pulls at moderate weight but as much as I could handle for sets of 10, then I finished with 21's on the leg extensions at a light weight that allowed me to finish all 3 parts of the 21 rep set (upper half, lower half, full movement). I also had leg curls added in there but felt that would be kind of a lot for the hamstrings to deal with.

My "bonus" workout is basically just an upper/arms day and it is fairly lightweight. I would say it's about 15 sets total and mostly sets of 10-12. I freely admit that one is mostly a time killer workout that I do because lifting is my #1 hobby since I lost motorcycle racing.

I do use the TDEE spreadsheet for my measurements but I have an account at BB.com and will look into that bodyspace stuff. I guess I am just having a combination of impatience and body image issues.

Thanks again for all these answers. I think I might get this thing sorted yet and am planning to stick it out a few more months to see where this takes me. I like the advice of some people elsewhere on the net that says basically bulk until you are disgusted by your own body then cut again and see where you're at.

I also really like tank's suggestion of strength goals though and that may be the approach that will keep me sane and focused.

Live4theLift · September 2013

Those lats bro, keep it up. I see progress, just remember that you see yourself everyday so you wont notice those subtle changes. If you can consistently up the weight then you are definitely making progress. Just focus on eating, lifting and sleeping. Progress will show itself in time

getting frustrated, doing it wrong or being impatient?

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