Bariatric surgery on a 2 years old

Sorry it is in French but you can see the pictures

http://tvanouvelles.ca/lcn/infos/lemonde/archives/2013/09/20130920-193145.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Little boy from Saudi Arabia with a BMI of 41. Parents tried to make him lose weight but he still gained weight :huh:

Replies

  • Pixi_Rex
    Pixi_Rex Posts: 1,676 Member
    :angry: :huh: :huh: :grumble: :grumble:

    That is all I have to say.
  • Martucha123
    Martucha123 Posts: 1,093 Member
    ridiculous
    if he gains due to some metabolic disorder then this wont help, if his metabolism is normal, then feeding him less food is the solution. when parents stoped beeing responsable what their 2 years old eat?
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426722/Saudi-Arabian-boys-gastric-bypass-surgery-worlds-youngest-2-years-old.html

    In English-I'm not saying I necessarily trust this source, but it says that the doctors were unable to ascertain if the parents were following the diet plan. That's when the child gets hospitalized or placed into protective custody to see, not cut away his stomach. Poor baby!

    This article cites that the parents were not compliant with follow up after the surgery.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/morbidly-obese-twoyearold-from-saudi-arabia-youngest-person-to-have-gastric-bypass-surgery-8830024.html
  • NonnyMary
    NonnyMary Posts: 982 Member
    that is so cray to want to have surgery on a baby.
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    Am I allowed to be judgmental here?

    I'd certainly like to be.

    There is a special place in hell for ****ty parents.
  • celadontea
    celadontea Posts: 335 Member
    An example of child abuse before, during and after the surgical procedure. They didn't do anything to change the parents behavior which completely skips the real problem here.
  • Hestion
    Hestion Posts: 740 Member
    And to think over here if your child is off school 1 day you're a bad parent!

    Seriously those parents need shooting! Not only must they have fed the child to get to that, but surely follow up appointments are critical?
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426722/Saudi-Arabian-boys-gastric-bypass-surgery-worlds-youngest-2-years-old.html

    In English-I'm not saying I necessarily trust this source, but it says that the doctors were unable to ascertain if the parents were following the diet plan. That's when the child gets hospitalized or placed into protective custody to see, not cut away his stomach. Poor baby!

    This article cites that the parents were not compliant with follow up after the surgery.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/morbidly-obese-twoyearold-from-saudi-arabia-youngest-person-to-have-gastric-bypass-surgery-8830024.html

    This is in Saudi Arabia though. I lived in Saudi for five years. There are total quacks out there practicing medicine, who would not be allowed to practice medicine in a western country.

    Regards the parents.... until about 2 years ago there was NO health education at all in Saudi government schools, no PE for girls (to this day, as far as I know) and the education system is terrible, all black and white thinking and memorising, no thinking skills, no learning how to look stuff up. Also, there are no public libraries. And educational opportunities are severely limited, especially for women. Women are not allowed to drive so even if there were public libraries, those not able to afford a chauffeur (i.e. the same ones that would have been educated in government schools because their parents couldn't afford private schools) wouldn't be able to get to them anyway. Seriously you have no idea what it's like, and also how good it is in western countries where people *can* educate themselves even if they went to a terrible school, like go to evening classes or study in public libraries etc. so IMO if his mother doesn't know what a healthy diet is, that is nothing like the same as not knowing what a healthy diet is in a western country with health education, public libraries, easy access to education etc.

    Regards the doctor - this does not surprise me at all, there are some really terrible doctors out there and paediatricians seem to be particularly bad. There *ARE* some good doctors in Saudi, if you go to private hospitals and find out what country the doctor got their qualification from, and get a list from a western country (we got a list from the UK) that tells you what countries' medical qualifications would be valid in a UK hospital (or USA if you get a USA list, etc). However, for someone who got a Saudi government school education who has no clue about diet or how kids get obese, they're not going to have the knowledge or insight to realise that their family doctor does not have a clue and shouldn't be practicing medicine.

    IMO the doctor is totally at fault here, combined with the Saudi government for willfully keeping their population ignorant (yes I believe it's deliberate to prevent people from questioning the royal family) ..... a good doctor would have educated the parents so that they would comply with the diet plan, and provided emotional support if necessary, and would not have done this surgery on the child.

    As to removing the child into protective custody - LOL you think they have that in Saudi....

    Also, childhood obesity is a serious problem, there are lots of obese toddlers, and there are also obese, bandy-legged toddlers who have rickets as well as obesity, because they don't get enough sunlight or enough food containing vitamin D (as sunny as Saudi is, it's so hot there that people are near enough nocturnal)

    NOTE: I lived in a hick town in Saudi for 5 years. The above may not be true, or as bad, in the big cities such as Riyadh and Jeddah. but all of the above was true about the city where I lived, and it was a 200-500km drive through the desert to get to any other city, so when I say people can't easily access stuff like educational opportunities, it is the case.. BTW I don't know to what extent the above is true in other cities, I'm just saying this as a disclaimer. I would hope that things are better elsewhere but I can't say one way or another.
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426722/Saudi-Arabian-boys-gastric-bypass-surgery-worlds-youngest-2-years-old.html

    In English-I'm not saying I necessarily trust this source, but it says that the doctors were unable to ascertain if the parents were following the diet plan. That's when the child gets hospitalized or placed into protective custody to see, not cut away his stomach. Poor baby!

    This article cites that the parents were not compliant with follow up after the surgery.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/morbidly-obese-twoyearold-from-saudi-arabia-youngest-person-to-have-gastric-bypass-surgery-8830024.html

    This is in Saudi Arabia though. I lived in Saudi for five years. There are total quacks out there practicing medicine, who would not be allowed to practice medicine in a western country.

    Regards the parents.... until about 2 years ago there was NO health education at all in Saudi government schools, no PE for girls (to this day, as far as I know) and the education system is terrible, all black and white thinking and memorising, no thinking skills, no learning how to look stuff up. Also, there are no public libraries. And educational opportunities are severely limited, especially for women. Women are not allowed to drive so even if there were public libraries, those not able to afford a chauffeur (i.e. the same ones that would have been educated in government schools because their parents couldn't afford private schools) wouldn't be able to get to them anyway. Seriously you have no idea what it's like, and also how good it is in western countries where people *can* educate themselves even if they went to a terrible school, like go to evening classes or study in public libraries etc. so IMO if his mother doesn't know what a healthy diet is, that is nothing like the same as not knowing what a healthy diet is in a western country with health education, public libraries, easy access to education etc.

    Regards the doctor - this does not surprise me at all, there are some really terrible doctors out there and paediatricians seem to be particularly bad. There *ARE* some good doctors in Saudi, if you go to private hospitals and find out what country the doctor got their qualification from, and get a list from a western country (we got a list from the UK) that tells you what countries' medical qualifications would be valid in a UK hospital (or USA if you get a USA list, etc). However, for someone who got a Saudi government school education who has no clue about diet or how kids get obese, they're not going to have the knowledge or insight to realise that their family doctor does not have a clue and shouldn't be practicing medicine.

    IMO the doctor is totally at fault here, combined with the Saudi government for willfully keeping their population ignorant (yes I believe it's deliberate to prevent people from questioning the royal family) ..... a good doctor would have educated the parents so that they would comply with the diet plan, and provided emotional support if necessary, and would not have done this surgery on the child.

    As to removing the child into protective custody - LOL you think they have that in Saudi....

    Also, childhood obesity is a serious problem, there are lots of obese toddlers, and there are also obese, bandy-legged toddlers who have rickets as well as obesity, because they don't get enough sunlight or enough food containing vitamin D (as sunny as Saudi is, it's so hot there that people are near enough nocturnal)

    NOTE: I lived in a hick town in Saudi for 5 years. The above may not be true, or as bad, in the big cities such as Riyadh and Jeddah. but all of the above was true about the city where I lived, and it was a 200-500km drive through the desert to get to any other city, so when I say people can't easily access stuff like educational opportunities, it is the case.. BTW I don't know to what extent the above is true in other cities, I'm just saying this as a disclaimer. I would hope that things are better elsewhere but I can't say one way or another.

    Ah, the world view where a chauffeur and private schools are the standard and without them, well, those poor people. Must be an upper-class British thing.
  • http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426722/Saudi-Arabian-boys-gastric-bypass-surgery-worlds-youngest-2-years-old.html

    In English-I'm not saying I necessarily trust this source, but it says that the doctors were unable to ascertain if the parents were following the diet plan. That's when the child gets hospitalized or placed into protective custody to see, not cut away his stomach. Poor baby!

    This article cites that the parents were not compliant with follow up after the surgery.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/morbidly-obese-twoyearold-from-saudi-arabia-youngest-person-to-have-gastric-bypass-surgery-8830024.html

    This is in Saudi Arabia though. I lived in Saudi for five years. There are total quacks out there practicing medicine, who would not be allowed to practice medicine in a western country.

    Regards the parents.... until about 2 years ago there was NO health education at all in Saudi government schools, no PE for girls (to this day, as far as I know) and the education system is terrible, all black and white thinking and memorising, no thinking skills, no learning how to look stuff up. Also, there are no public libraries. And educational opportunities are severely limited, especially for women. Women are not allowed to drive so even if there were public libraries, those not able to afford a chauffeur (i.e. the same ones that would have been educated in government schools because their parents couldn't afford private schools) wouldn't be able to get to them anyway. Seriously you have no idea what it's like, and also how good it is in western countries where people *can* educate themselves even if they went to a terrible school, like go to evening classes or study in public libraries etc. so IMO if his mother doesn't know what a healthy diet is, that is nothing like the same as not knowing what a healthy diet is in a western country with health education, public libraries, easy access to education etc.

    Regards the doctor - this does not surprise me at all, there are some really terrible doctors out there and paediatricians seem to be particularly bad. There *ARE* some good doctors in Saudi, if you go to private hospitals and find out what country the doctor got their qualification from, and get a list from a western country (we got a list from the UK) that tells you what countries' medical qualifications would be valid in a UK hospital (or USA if you get a USA list, etc). However, for someone who got a Saudi government school education who has no clue about diet or how kids get obese, they're not going to have the knowledge or insight to realise that their family doctor does not have a clue and shouldn't be practicing medicine.

    IMO the doctor is totally at fault here, combined with the Saudi government for willfully keeping their population ignorant (yes I believe it's deliberate to prevent people from questioning the royal family) ..... a good doctor would have educated the parents so that they would comply with the diet plan, and provided emotional support if necessary, and would not have done this surgery on the child.

    As to removing the child into protective custody - LOL you think they have that in Saudi....

    Also, childhood obesity is a serious problem, there are lots of obese toddlers, and there are also obese, bandy-legged toddlers who have rickets as well as obesity, because they don't get enough sunlight or enough food containing vitamin D (as sunny as Saudi is, it's so hot there that people are near enough nocturnal)

    NOTE: I lived in a hick town in Saudi for 5 years. The above may not be true, or as bad, in the big cities such as Riyadh and Jeddah. but all of the above was true about the city where I lived, and it was a 200-500km drive through the desert to get to any other city, so when I say people can't easily access stuff like educational opportunities, it is the case.. BTW I don't know to what extent the above is true in other cities, I'm just saying this as a disclaimer. I would hope that things are better elsewhere but I can't say one way or another.

    Ah, the world view where a chauffeur and private schools are the standard and without them, well, those poor people. Must be an upper-class British thing.
  • Did you read his whole reply,? it didn't say that private schools and limos were normal ?????? it was merely saying that UNLESS people were fortunate enough to have these things people have no access to information
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    nvm - not worth it
  • SLLRunner
    SLLRunner Posts: 12,943 Member
    Since no medical reason was ascertained as to why the baby gained that much weight, those parents should have been charged with child abuse and neglect. A two year old does not go and get food by themselves. They were obviously stuffing the poor kid with too many calories.
  • FlaxMilk
    FlaxMilk Posts: 3,452 Member
    I defer somewhat to your experiences living in the country, however, to my understanding health care providers are mandated reporters of child abuse and neglect in Saudi Arabia. It does say the parents were given several courses of education on healthy diet including a plan to follow. I find it hard to believe that that somehow, someone (parents, insurance, doctors, government) found a way to get a bariatric surgery done but had no other options for this child. I'm not buying that. I would accept much of your post as tragic but a reality had this child died from morbid obesity because no real options existed. Someone found the means to get this child medical appointments and a drastic surgery. I refuse to accept other options weren't available to those involved.

    I actually blame the doctors as well. As I am not well-informed on the laws or abilities to protect children in SA, I can't speak to what should have been done with the parents. I can't speak to why they were unable to help their child lose the weight. I do blame the professionals for failing this child. I don't think it's ridiculous to think that someone could have provided a better way to help than major, irreversible surgery while a child is still in the critical stages of growth.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426722/Saudi-Arabian-boys-gastric-bypass-surgery-worlds-youngest-2-years-old.html

    In English-I'm not saying I necessarily trust this source, but it says that the doctors were unable to ascertain if the parents were following the diet plan. That's when the child gets hospitalized or placed into protective custody to see, not cut away his stomach. Poor baby!

    This article cites that the parents were not compliant with follow up after the surgery.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/morbidly-obese-twoyearold-from-saudi-arabia-youngest-person-to-have-gastric-bypass-surgery-8830024.html

    This is in Saudi Arabia though. I lived in Saudi for five years. There are total quacks out there practicing medicine, who would not be allowed to practice medicine in a western country.

    Regards the parents.... until about 2 years ago there was NO health education at all in Saudi government schools, no PE for girls (to this day, as far as I know) and the education system is terrible, all black and white thinking and memorising, no thinking skills, no learning how to look stuff up. Also, there are no public libraries. And educational opportunities are severely limited, especially for women. Women are not allowed to drive so even if there were public libraries, those not able to afford a chauffeur (i.e. the same ones that would have been educated in government schools because their parents couldn't afford private schools) wouldn't be able to get to them anyway. Seriously you have no idea what it's like, and also how good it is in western countries where people *can* educate themselves even if they went to a terrible school, like go to evening classes or study in public libraries etc. so IMO if his mother doesn't know what a healthy diet is, that is nothing like the same as not knowing what a healthy diet is in a western country with health education, public libraries, easy access to education etc.

    Regards the doctor - this does not surprise me at all, there are some really terrible doctors out there and paediatricians seem to be particularly bad. There *ARE* some good doctors in Saudi, if you go to private hospitals and find out what country the doctor got their qualification from, and get a list from a western country (we got a list from the UK) that tells you what countries' medical qualifications would be valid in a UK hospital (or USA if you get a USA list, etc). However, for someone who got a Saudi government school education who has no clue about diet or how kids get obese, they're not going to have the knowledge or insight to realise that their family doctor does not have a clue and shouldn't be practicing medicine.

    IMO the doctor is totally at fault here, combined with the Saudi government for willfully keeping their population ignorant (yes I believe it's deliberate to prevent people from questioning the royal family) ..... a good doctor would have educated the parents so that they would comply with the diet plan, and provided emotional support if necessary, and would not have done this surgery on the child.

    As to removing the child into protective custody - LOL you think they have that in Saudi....

    Also, childhood obesity is a serious problem, there are lots of obese toddlers, and there are also obese, bandy-legged toddlers who have rickets as well as obesity, because they don't get enough sunlight or enough food containing vitamin D (as sunny as Saudi is, it's so hot there that people are near enough nocturnal)

    NOTE: I lived in a hick town in Saudi for 5 years. The above may not be true, or as bad, in the big cities such as Riyadh and Jeddah. but all of the above was true about the city where I lived, and it was a 200-500km drive through the desert to get to any other city, so when I say people can't easily access stuff like educational opportunities, it is the case.. BTW I don't know to what extent the above is true in other cities, I'm just saying this as a disclaimer. I would hope that things are better elsewhere but I can't say one way or another.

    Ah, the world view where a chauffeur and private schools are the standard and without them, well, those poor people. Must be an upper-class British thing.

    say what??

    1. I'm working class, state educated (i.e. what Americans call public schools), and got a 2:1 degree by working my *kitten* off in manual jobs to pay my way through university. And my entire food budget was five pounds a week, that's less than ten dollars.

    2. Saudi is nothing like Britain, that's the whole point of what I was saying. People in western countries have pretty easy access to education, libraries, all kinds of stuff, that people in other countries don't have. In Saudi, the government schools are extremely bad. Even most private schools in Saudi are worse than state (public) schools in the UK, and would never pass a UK state school (OFSTED) inspection, but are still light years better than the Saudi government schools, for which I can say nothing positive whatsoever, and as I worked as a teacher for 5 years in Saudi I know what the schools are like there. And if you're female, it's illegal to drive a car, so if you want to try to access any educational opportunities that are available, if you can't afford to hire a driver, you can't get there. Most relatively wealthy families in Saudi hire drivers for the family, so that women can get around. Those that can't afford to do that, the women can't get further than walking to the local shops. Bear in mind that for 9 months of the year, it's 50+ degrees centigrade (120+ degrees Fahrenheit) and women are legally required to wear an abaya (black outer garment that covers the whole body) so walking far is not an option either.

    If you don't have access to education or information at all, how can you possibly educate yourself? by being psychic?

    I have taught some Saudi girls and young women who are extremely well educated in spite of all this, but guess what.... they were all from very wealthy families that could afford to send them to one of the better private schools and hire drivers so the women in the family could get around of their own accord. Also, they spent a lot of time and money travelling to foreign countries, and quite a few of the families, the girls had spent some time living abroad. They had access to education because they had money and the drive to educate themselves. (there are also a lot of women in Saudi who are wealthy and do have access to all that but can't be bothered.... I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about women and girls from poor families that have no way to access any educational resources at all.)
  • BeachIron
    BeachIron Posts: 6,490 Member
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426722/Saudi-Arabian-boys-gastric-bypass-surgery-worlds-youngest-2-years-old.html

    In English-I'm not saying I necessarily trust this source, but it says that the doctors were unable to ascertain if the parents were following the diet plan. That's when the child gets hospitalized or placed into protective custody to see, not cut away his stomach. Poor baby!

    This article cites that the parents were not compliant with follow up after the surgery.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/morbidly-obese-twoyearold-from-saudi-arabia-youngest-person-to-have-gastric-bypass-surgery-8830024.html

    This is in Saudi Arabia though. I lived in Saudi for five years. There are total quacks out there practicing medicine, who would not be allowed to practice medicine in a western country.

    Regards the parents.... until about 2 years ago there was NO health education at all in Saudi government schools, no PE for girls (to this day, as far as I know) and the education system is terrible, all black and white thinking and memorising, no thinking skills, no learning how to look stuff up. Also, there are no public libraries. And educational opportunities are severely limited, especially for women. Women are not allowed to drive so even if there were public libraries, those not able to afford a chauffeur (i.e. the same ones that would have been educated in government schools because their parents couldn't afford private schools) wouldn't be able to get to them anyway. Seriously you have no idea what it's like, and also how good it is in western countries where people *can* educate themselves even if they went to a terrible school, like go to evening classes or study in public libraries etc. so IMO if his mother doesn't know what a healthy diet is, that is nothing like the same as not knowing what a healthy diet is in a western country with health education, public libraries, easy access to education etc.

    Regards the doctor - this does not surprise me at all, there are some really terrible doctors out there and paediatricians seem to be particularly bad. There *ARE* some good doctors in Saudi, if you go to private hospitals and find out what country the doctor got their qualification from, and get a list from a western country (we got a list from the UK) that tells you what countries' medical qualifications would be valid in a UK hospital (or USA if you get a USA list, etc). However, for someone who got a Saudi government school education who has no clue about diet or how kids get obese, they're not going to have the knowledge or insight to realise that their family doctor does not have a clue and shouldn't be practicing medicine.

    IMO the doctor is totally at fault here, combined with the Saudi government for willfully keeping their population ignorant (yes I believe it's deliberate to prevent people from questioning the royal family) ..... a good doctor would have educated the parents so that they would comply with the diet plan, and provided emotional support if necessary, and would not have done this surgery on the child.

    As to removing the child into protective custody - LOL you think they have that in Saudi....

    Also, childhood obesity is a serious problem, there are lots of obese toddlers, and there are also obese, bandy-legged toddlers who have rickets as well as obesity, because they don't get enough sunlight or enough food containing vitamin D (as sunny as Saudi is, it's so hot there that people are near enough nocturnal)

    NOTE: I lived in a hick town in Saudi for 5 years. The above may not be true, or as bad, in the big cities such as Riyadh and Jeddah. but all of the above was true about the city where I lived, and it was a 200-500km drive through the desert to get to any other city, so when I say people can't easily access stuff like educational opportunities, it is the case.. BTW I don't know to what extent the above is true in other cities, I'm just saying this as a disclaimer. I would hope that things are better elsewhere but I can't say one way or another.

    Ah, the world view where a chauffeur and private schools are the standard and without them, well, those poor people. Must be an upper-class British thing.

    say what??

    1. I'm working class, state educated (i.e. what Americans call public schools), and got a 2:1 degree by working my *kitten* off in manual jobs to pay my way through university. And my entire food budget was five pounds a week, that's less than ten dollars.

    2. Saudi is nothing like Britain, that's the whole point of what I was saying. People in western countries have pretty easy access to education, libraries, all kinds of stuff, that people in other countries don't have. In Saudi, the government schools are extremely bad. Even most private schools in Saudi are worse than state (public) schools in the UK, and would never pass a UK state school (OFSTED) inspection, but are still light years better than the Saudi government schools, for which I can say nothing positive whatsoever, and as I worked as a teacher for 5 years in Saudi I know what the schools are like there. And if you're female, it's illegal to drive a car, so if you want to try to access any educational opportunities that are available, if you can't afford to hire a driver, you can't get there. Most relatively wealthy families in Saudi hire drivers for the family, so that women can get around. Those that can't afford to do that, the women can't get further than walking to the local shops. Bear in mind that for 9 months of the year, it's 50+ degrees centigrade (120+ degrees Fahrenheit) and women are legally required to wear an abaya (black outer garment that covers the whole body) so walking far is not an option either.

    If you don't have access to education or information at all, how can you possibly educate yourself? by being psychic?

    I have taught some Saudi girls and young women who are extremely well educated in spite of all this, but guess what.... they were all from very wealthy families that could afford to send them to one of the better private schools and hire drivers so the women in the family could get around of their own accord. Also, they spent a lot of time and money travelling to foreign countries, and quite a few of the families, the girls had spent some time living abroad. They had access to education because they had money and the drive to educate themselves. (there are also a lot of women in Saudi who are wealthy and do have access to all that but can't be bothered.... I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about women and girls from poor families that have no way to access any educational resources at all.)

    Terribly sorry. I must have been viewing all of that through my own privileged background.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2426722/Saudi-Arabian-boys-gastric-bypass-surgery-worlds-youngest-2-years-old.html

    In English-I'm not saying I necessarily trust this source, but it says that the doctors were unable to ascertain if the parents were following the diet plan. That's when the child gets hospitalized or placed into protective custody to see, not cut away his stomach. Poor baby!

    This article cites that the parents were not compliant with follow up after the surgery.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/morbidly-obese-twoyearold-from-saudi-arabia-youngest-person-to-have-gastric-bypass-surgery-8830024.html

    This is in Saudi Arabia though. I lived in Saudi for five years. There are total quacks out there practicing medicine, who would not be allowed to practice medicine in a western country.

    Regards the parents.... until about 2 years ago there was NO health education at all in Saudi government schools, no PE for girls (to this day, as far as I know) and the education system is terrible, all black and white thinking and memorising, no thinking skills, no learning how to look stuff up. Also, there are no public libraries. And educational opportunities are severely limited, especially for women. Women are not allowed to drive so even if there were public libraries, those not able to afford a chauffeur (i.e. the same ones that would have been educated in government schools because their parents couldn't afford private schools) wouldn't be able to get to them anyway. Seriously you have no idea what it's like, and also how good it is in western countries where people *can* educate themselves even if they went to a terrible school, like go to evening classes or study in public libraries etc. so IMO if his mother doesn't know what a healthy diet is, that is nothing like the same as not knowing what a healthy diet is in a western country with health education, public libraries, easy access to education etc.

    Regards the doctor - this does not surprise me at all, there are some really terrible doctors out there and paediatricians seem to be particularly bad. There *ARE* some good doctors in Saudi, if you go to private hospitals and find out what country the doctor got their qualification from, and get a list from a western country (we got a list from the UK) that tells you what countries' medical qualifications would be valid in a UK hospital (or USA if you get a USA list, etc). However, for someone who got a Saudi government school education who has no clue about diet or how kids get obese, they're not going to have the knowledge or insight to realise that their family doctor does not have a clue and shouldn't be practicing medicine.

    IMO the doctor is totally at fault here, combined with the Saudi government for willfully keeping their population ignorant (yes I believe it's deliberate to prevent people from questioning the royal family) ..... a good doctor would have educated the parents so that they would comply with the diet plan, and provided emotional support if necessary, and would not have done this surgery on the child.

    As to removing the child into protective custody - LOL you think they have that in Saudi....

    Also, childhood obesity is a serious problem, there are lots of obese toddlers, and there are also obese, bandy-legged toddlers who have rickets as well as obesity, because they don't get enough sunlight or enough food containing vitamin D (as sunny as Saudi is, it's so hot there that people are near enough nocturnal)

    NOTE: I lived in a hick town in Saudi for 5 years. The above may not be true, or as bad, in the big cities such as Riyadh and Jeddah. but all of the above was true about the city where I lived, and it was a 200-500km drive through the desert to get to any other city, so when I say people can't easily access stuff like educational opportunities, it is the case.. BTW I don't know to what extent the above is true in other cities, I'm just saying this as a disclaimer. I would hope that things are better elsewhere but I can't say one way or another.

    Ah, the world view where a chauffeur and private schools are the standard and without them, well, those poor people. Must be an upper-class British thing.

    say what??

    1. I'm working class, state educated (i.e. what Americans call public schools), and got a 2:1 degree by working my *kitten* off in manual jobs to pay my way through university. And my entire food budget was five pounds a week, that's less than ten dollars.

    2. Saudi is nothing like Britain, that's the whole point of what I was saying. People in western countries have pretty easy access to education, libraries, all kinds of stuff, that people in other countries don't have. In Saudi, the government schools are extremely bad. Even most private schools in Saudi are worse than state (public) schools in the UK, and would never pass a UK state school (OFSTED) inspection, but are still light years better than the Saudi government schools, for which I can say nothing positive whatsoever, and as I worked as a teacher for 5 years in Saudi I know what the schools are like there. And if you're female, it's illegal to drive a car, so if you want to try to access any educational opportunities that are available, if you can't afford to hire a driver, you can't get there. Most relatively wealthy families in Saudi hire drivers for the family, so that women can get around. Those that can't afford to do that, the women can't get further than walking to the local shops. Bear in mind that for 9 months of the year, it's 50+ degrees centigrade (120+ degrees Fahrenheit) and women are legally required to wear an abaya (black outer garment that covers the whole body) so walking far is not an option either.

    If you don't have access to education or information at all, how can you possibly educate yourself? by being psychic?

    I have taught some Saudi girls and young women who are extremely well educated in spite of all this, but guess what.... they were all from very wealthy families that could afford to send them to one of the better private schools and hire drivers so the women in the family could get around of their own accord. Also, they spent a lot of time and money travelling to foreign countries, and quite a few of the families, the girls had spent some time living abroad. They had access to education because they had money and the drive to educate themselves. (there are also a lot of women in Saudi who are wealthy and do have access to all that but can't be bothered.... I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about women and girls from poor families that have no way to access any educational resources at all.)

    Terribly sorry. I must have been viewing all of that through my own privileged background.

    FFS - that argument is between you and Corvus. I didn't even join in that debate at all, or post any comments in response to either of your posts on that topic, i.e. I'm not involved in it, so don't drag me into it, thank you.