It Cuts Both Ways
BeachIron
Posts: 6,490 Member
This is an interesting tidbit, the link is below, but it highlights that in a recent survey of 34 leading female CEOS, Chairs and company founders asked to name the person who had the most impact on their career, 33 picked a man.
http://www.20-first.com/1270-0-top-female-executives-pay-respect-to-their-male-mentors.html
Some of the "why" as in why did these men support these women:
1. Most of them have daughters, and often no sons.
2. Many also have had (other) strong female influences in their lives.
3. A strong sense of fairness.
Of course, this cuts both ways. I have to ask the question, how many of these women do you think would honestly turn around and mentor a man? Honestly. If you are a woman, would you be willing to mentor a junior male colleague? Or would you seek out and favor a woman?
Let me get to the heart of why I posted this: my views are no less legitimate because I am male. When you use phrases like "white male privilege" you have marginalized my views every bit as much as if I were to use the phrase "you're being an emotional woman." You have, in one single and short phrase, defined my very existence, my life experiences, and my world views through my race and my gender. The help I have given others, the struggles and challenges that I have faced, and the rest of my actions are, in your mind, irrelevant. I am a man and I am white, and that is all you think you need to know about me. If I did the same to you, what would that make me?
This is not to deny that many women and people who are members of minority groups have faced incredible challenges. Of course they have, but we also do not live in the 1950s. There are, today, affluent and successful people from all backgrounds. On the other hand, many people continue to struggle. But also go travel through the rural South or rural Appalachia sometime and take a look, then tell me those people are privileged. So when you are speaking to an individual, give that individual the same respect and courtesy that you desire for yourself. You don't know who that person is and you don't know that person's background solely because you know that person is "white" and male. That is even more important on an international website. And let me be clear, I am speaking of how you treat individuals, not social policy.
So please support your friends and family as the individuals who they are, and not the social movement or political system that you see them represent in your own mind simply because that person is male, female, white, black, Asian, etc. Treat people as individuals. Give them the respect that they are due. You know that you desire the same for yourself.
Please feel free to comment here, I may or may not come back to respond.
http://www.20-first.com/1270-0-top-female-executives-pay-respect-to-their-male-mentors.html
Some of the "why" as in why did these men support these women:
1. Most of them have daughters, and often no sons.
2. Many also have had (other) strong female influences in their lives.
3. A strong sense of fairness.
Of course, this cuts both ways. I have to ask the question, how many of these women do you think would honestly turn around and mentor a man? Honestly. If you are a woman, would you be willing to mentor a junior male colleague? Or would you seek out and favor a woman?
Let me get to the heart of why I posted this: my views are no less legitimate because I am male. When you use phrases like "white male privilege" you have marginalized my views every bit as much as if I were to use the phrase "you're being an emotional woman." You have, in one single and short phrase, defined my very existence, my life experiences, and my world views through my race and my gender. The help I have given others, the struggles and challenges that I have faced, and the rest of my actions are, in your mind, irrelevant. I am a man and I am white, and that is all you think you need to know about me. If I did the same to you, what would that make me?
This is not to deny that many women and people who are members of minority groups have faced incredible challenges. Of course they have, but we also do not live in the 1950s. There are, today, affluent and successful people from all backgrounds. On the other hand, many people continue to struggle. But also go travel through the rural South or rural Appalachia sometime and take a look, then tell me those people are privileged. So when you are speaking to an individual, give that individual the same respect and courtesy that you desire for yourself. You don't know who that person is and you don't know that person's background solely because you know that person is "white" and male. That is even more important on an international website. And let me be clear, I am speaking of how you treat individuals, not social policy.
So please support your friends and family as the individuals who they are, and not the social movement or political system that you see them represent in your own mind simply because that person is male, female, white, black, Asian, etc. Treat people as individuals. Give them the respect that they are due. You know that you desire the same for yourself.
Please feel free to comment here, I may or may not come back to respond.
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Replies
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Very well said
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In...with much respect.0
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Very well said
Agreed. Very well said.0 -
I could not agree more with your post. You stated it beautifully and respectfully, as well. Nicely done.0
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I am so encouraged that the first four responses were positive and from women!
I have to agree with the OP. I have seen and experienced so much of this. Just as he wrote, I have had some major struggles including prejudice(yes prejudice against a white male). It has reinforced a valuable trait - take people as individuals and judge them on their character, not their gender or skin color; and offer help and mentoring to anyone willing to take it.
Well said!0 -
I completely agree with your final full paragraph.
Otherwise -
1) I have mentored junior male colleagues; at least as many as women, because I came up in an engineering and engineering management culture and males constituted 95% of the workforce. It is only in recent years I have even had the opportunity to mentor females; now I mentor both. I still have difficulty finding individuals of different races to mentor though I've been fortunate to learn alot from a couple of individuals I have worked with.
2) Your examples, however, leave me scratching my head, and may underscore some issues though perhaps not as you intend. The tidibt you cite (based on my own experience and tons of data about gender in upwardly mobile environments) is at least as much because there are not females in the position to be mentoring to the extent that there are males. I've had great male and female mentors, and am grateful to both, but again because of the STEM environment in which I worked, the vast majority were male.
"White male privilege" is a sociological statement; it refers to class as much as to race and gender and has to do with (a) distribution of political power, (b) access to upward mobility and distribution within work environments, and (c) concentration of financial wealth. "You're being an emotional female" is a personal statement, characterizing an individual's behavior, dismissing and belittling it, and setting aside a presumed response to some situation on the basis of gender.
When "white male privilege" is used to characterize you as an individual and put you down or marginalize your thoughts or opinions, of course it's wrong. Just as "You're being an emotional female" is. And I'm in, too, and appreciate your post.
I would gladly stand by your side - you are a thoughtful and respectful person - and stand down anyone who dismisses you by using a phrase like "white male privilege" (or any other phrase) to belittle you or paint you with some broad brush stroke that negates you as an individual. That said, these are different phrases, with different meanings, and equating them is missing some of the point.
I'm 56, and a white female.0 -
I completely agree with your final full paragraph.
Otherwise -
1) I have mentored junior male colleagues; at least as many as women, because I came up in an engineering and engineering management culture and males constituted 95% of the workforce. It is only in recent years I have even had the opportunity to mentor females; now I mentor both. I still have difficulty finding individuals of different races to mentor though I've been fortunate to learn alot from a couple of individuals I have worked with.
2) Your examples, however, leave me scratching my head, and may underscore some issues though perhaps not as you intend. "White male privilege" is a sociological statement; it refers to class as much as to race and gender and has to do with (a) distribution of political power, (b) access to upward mobility and distribution within work environments, and (c) concentration of financial wealth. "You're being an emotional female" is a personal statement, characterizing an individual's behavior, dismissing and belittling it, and setting aside a presumed response to some situation on the basis of gender.
So, the tidibt (based on my own experience) is at least as much because there are not females in the position to be mentoring to the extent that there are males. There is a gender bias based on the above factors that's involved in getting women into positions of power from which to mentor. (I've had great male and female mentors, and am grateful to both, but again because of the STEM environment in which I worked, the vast majority were male.)
Back to your final statement - 100% agree. And I would stand by your side and stand down anyone who dismisses you by using a phrase like "white male privilege" to dismiss you or belittle you. That said, these are different phrases, with different meanings, and equating them is missing some of the point.
I'm 56, and a white female.
His point with 2) is that this phrase is used against men as a means to disregard their opinions just as much as being an "emotional female" is used against women. People use this phrase all the time with regard to a white male, simply because he is a white male. Privilege also cuts both ways. Men are not the only ones fortunate enough to have come up in privilege, and neither are whites. But the fact that "white male privilege" is still a term that people feel perfectly comfortable using to summarily disregard an entire swath of the population is an issue. It is used just as much as a personal statement to disregard a person on sight. Simply because it is a socio-political term does not mean that it is also not a racist and sexist term.0 -
Great points; especially "Treat people as individuals. Give them the respect that they are due. You know that you desire the same for yourself. ".0
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His point with 2) is that this phrase is used against men as a means to disregard their opinions just as much as being an "emotional female" is used against women. People use this phrase all the time with regard to a white male, simply because he is a white male. Privilege also cuts both ways. Men are not the only ones fortunate enough to have come up in privilege, and neither are whites. But the fact that "white male privilege" is still a term that people feel perfectly comfortable using to summarily disregard an entire swath of the population is an issue. It is used just as much as a personal statement to disregard a person on sight. Simply because it is a socio-political term does not mean that it is also not a racist and sexist term.
Understood, and I edited my post to try to make it clearer.0 -
His point with 2) is that this phrase is used against men as a means to disregard their opinions just as much as being an "emotional female" is used against women. People use this phrase all the time with regard to a white male, simply because he is a white male. Privilege also cuts both ways. Men are not the only ones fortunate enough to have come up in privilege, and neither are whites. But the fact that "white male privilege" is still a term that people feel perfectly comfortable using to summarily disregard an entire swath of the population is an issue. It is used just as much as a personal statement to disregard a person on sight. Simply because it is a socio-political term does not mean that it is also not a racist and sexist term.
Understood, and I edited my post to try to make it clearer.
Thank you. I can't disagree with you, even your point in 2, but let me ask a question and provide additional explanation for what I was attempting to say.
If you agree that class is an important part of the real meaning behind the phrase "white male privilege" then why use the phrase at all? Why not use the word "class?" I personally find it to be a poorly worded phrase, and I see it used far more to belittle other's opinions in discussions than it is used as a serious sociological term.
But again, I am discussing how we treat individuals. As for why I chose to use "emotional female" as an example, it is because I couldn't immediately think of a common sociological term for women that was as equally demeaning, so I had to pull something out that one wouldn't see used in a serious discussion. I think that is part of the issue that I am attempting to address here.0 -
I don't disagree. I do wonder how many of them experienced female role models? Did they name role models from their industry?
I'm in academia. When I look "up" (my senior colleagues) 90% are male. The vast majority are white, though my university is not.
The number of females in leadership positions, even in academia, is still quite small. I'd assume it's even smaller in business and the land of "CEOs".
That said, my mentors have been and are male.
Folks who I think would consider *me* their mentor are both male and female.
I agree about focusing on individuals, while ensuring that policies and practices do the same.
And valuing and respecting the individual opinion.
I've never gotten the sense that your opinion is not valued here. Quite the opposite in fact.0 -
I don't disagree. I do wonder how many of them experienced female role models? Did they name role models from their industry?
I'm in academia. When I look "up" (my senior colleagues) 90% are male. The vast majority are white, though my university is not.
The number of females in leadership positions, even in academia, is still quite small. I'd assume it's even smaller in business and the land of "CEOs".
That said, my mentors have been and are male.
Folks who I think would consider *me* their mentor are both male and female.
I agree about focusing on individuals, while ensuring that policies and practices do the same.
And valuing and respecting the individual opinion.
I've never gotten the sense that your opinion is not valued here. Quite the opposite in fact.
Thank you. Only one, apparently, had a female role model. I'm equating "role model" here with what the article describes as "the person that had the most impact on their career." I have assumed that is a positive impact, I suppose, but the tone of the article makes that a fair assumption, in my opinion.
I think that was/is one of the challenges faced by that, and I believe your, generation. These women, because of their generation, were and are true pioneers. I certainly am not trying to take anything away from them or you. My intent is simply to ask that others treat people as individuals, rather than social/political movements writ large.0 -
I remember attending a lecture once and being so glad I was gay. At least I had a minority card to clutch on to so my opinion could still be valid.
I think it is rarely people's general opinion in life, but on certain subjects the dismissal of an individuals viewpoint because of their perceived majority origin happens.
For instance, I have often seen women on MFP disregard a man's advice because he is a man and it's easy for men to lose weight, they don't have periods, yadayadayada.0 -
I remember attending a lecture once and being so glad I was gay. At least I had a minority card to clutch on to so my opinion could still be valid.
I think it is rarely people's general opinion in life, but on certain subjects the dismissal of an individuals viewpoint because of their perceived majority origin happens.
For instance, I have often seen women on MFP disregard a man's advice because he is a man and it's easy for men to lose weight, they don't have periods, yadayadayada.
I had a gay boss at one time, and I think he honestly had it worse than anyone else. Coworkers talked more **** behind his back than anyone with whom I've ever worked. He was a great guy, and he taught me quite a bit.0 -
I have had several advantages in life - - as have all Americans if we are to compare ourselves to the global mean - but of those advantages, my race and gender are between minor and irrelevant.
Fortunately, the gifts I've been given help offset any of society's attempts to handicap the game. For Satan's advocacy, one could argue that this means the system works.
In any event I'll leave the broad-brush painting and categorizing of people to the politicians, statisticians and social scientist. I'll continue to evaluate each individual as just that - an individual.0 -
Excellent post.
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I like this post and I think you made some valid points.
I think, as a society we need to learn to evaluate each and every person on an individual basis rather than clinging onto preconceived notions based on outward appearances.
We've come such a long way in such a short period of time but we still have a loooong way to go.0 -
the Golden Rule is still an astonishingly good piece of advice after all these years...
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you."0 -
Can I just say, I applaud your post.
I have seen people discriminated against, and I've seen people favored, based on race or gender... FAR too many times.
I've seen women favored over men, men favored over women, white folks favored over non-whites, and I've most recently experienced personally being discriminated against because I am white -- it SUCKS regardless of which direction it goes.
Another thing I'd like to point out is ageism -- I hate to see people being passed over because they are "too old" or being marginalized and discounted because they are "too young" ....
Can't everybody just value a person for WHO they are, not WHAT they are? Value me for my knowledge & skill set, my capabilities and accomplishments -- Don't step on me or behave nastily toward me because I'm fat and white and young and female and ambitious. Because someday, you may get the other end of the stick from someone else!
However, I just put my best foot forward always, and soldier through any of that mess -- and I'd like to point out that yes, I DO mentor people of both genders -- I have a couple of female proteges, and a couple of male ones too. I tend to get more face-time with females in my workplace generally because my workplace is in an accounting office, and we just have more females than males in the whole building! But I like to help out wherever I am needed. If I can offer advice or help someone grow their knowledge & skill set then - of course, why not?
Thanks for this post, I have really enjoyed it!0 -
the Golden Rule is still an astonishingly good piece of advice after all these years...
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
That's really the point, and you are absolutely spot on.
I almost used that phrase, but sometimes a point needs to be emphasized to be heard.0 -
the Golden Rule is still an astonishingly good piece of advice after all these years...
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
The 'Golden Rule' cannot be emphasized enough, since it's the foundation upon which all of mankind's morality is based.0 -
In my field of work there are many more men then women, and at my age (33), I have not had the opportunity to mentor anyone. When I have become established enough to mentor others, I would not give a thought as to whether or not they are male or female, only if they mesh enough with me that our relationship would be beneficial. Please don't assume that everyone is prejudice because in my experience there are many more individuals that respect the person then there are those that are prejudice to a persons gender or race.0
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Well said Beach! Well said!0
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Isn't it interesting that virtually every culture (and thus, religion) has some variation of the golden rule?the Golden Rule is still an astonishingly good piece of advice after all these years...
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
That's really the point, and you are absolutely spot on.
I almost used that phrase, but sometimes a point needs to be emphasized to be heard.0 -
Isn't it interesting that virtually every culture (and thus, religion) has some variation of the golden rule?the Golden Rule is still an astonishingly good piece of advice after all these years...
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
That's really the point, and you are absolutely spot on.
I almost used that phrase, but sometimes a point needs to be emphasized to be heard.
And we all break it at times. I am no different.0 -
Ditto.
Isn't it interesting that virtually every culture (and thus, religion) has some variation of the golden rule?the Golden Rule is still an astonishingly good piece of advice after all these years...
"do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
That's really the point, and you are absolutely spot on.
I almost used that phrase, but sometimes a point needs to be emphasized to be heard.
And we all break it at times. I am no different.0 -
So please support your friends and family as the individuals who they are, and not the social movement or political system that you see them represent in your own mind simply because that person is male, female, white, black, Asian, etc. Treat people as individuals. Give them the respect that they are due. You know that you desire the same for yourself.
QFT0 -
I have had so many say to me that I have "changed their opinion of Black people" like it is a compliment and I should be flattered. It tells me that they judged me before I even opened my mouth. I can honestly say that it makes it hard for me to not assume everyone thinks that way but I certainly try my best. Big believer in the Golden Rule.
Thank you for your post. 0 -
I have had so many say to me that I have "changed their opinion of Black people" like it is a compliment and I should be flattered. It tells me that they judged me before I even opened my mouth. I can honestly say that it makes it hard for me to not assume everyone thinks that way but I certainly try my best. Big believer in the Golden Rule.
Thank you for your post.
Thank you, and I agree. That is, at it's core, an insult wrapped up in complimentary terms, and it is quite common where I grew up. "You're not so bad for a [____]." Fill in the blank with any gender or race, and it all comes out the same, an insult. If it's said between genuine friends, who truly understand each other, it can be an inside joke, trash talk, etc. Between strangers? Not acceptable.0 -
I pretty much agree with every single word on the entire thread.
People absolutely should be treated as individuals, not as a member of (add group here).
Re the mentor thing, I'm in a line of work where there's pretty much equal numbers of men and women and this question never even occurred to me, i.e. mentoring someone based on gender. i'd be inclined to mentor whoever is struggling but determined to succeed, which could be the case with either a man or a woman and that would not factor in my decision of who to mentor or not.
However in a field where there's a high predominance of one gender, then i may give extra encouragement to someone of the minority gender. I've been the only female, or one of a tiny number among many men, in quite a lot of situations, including jobs such as factory work and postal delivery, and also including ice hockey, i.e. training with the boys or men, and a few occasions in judo as well. I don't really consider it as a big deal. but I can see that some people might be intimidated by it, so having a mentor that's looking out for you could help a lot.. And some predominantly female jobs, e.g. primary school teacher, there's definitely been cases of negativity and even prejudice aimed at men, sometimes to the point of questioning their motives for being a teacher in the first place especially men who want to teach very young kids (i.e. an implicit accusation of being a paedophile, which is about as nasty an accusation as you can get!!!). So yes if I was a senior teacher in a primary school, i'd look out for male staff and make sure they're treated with respect.
ETA: when in these jobs/sports clubs where I was the only woman/girl or one of a tiny number, I was treated really well the vast majority of the time. I only met with one ice hockey coach who didn't want me training with the boys/men (they were about 17-18) but he didn't attempt to stop me, he let his opinion be known, then treated me as one of the guys on the ice (including no concessions for being female... which I didn't want at all anyway!!)
re prejudice against men - I've seen this a few times, not just prejudice but really negative stereotypes. Like the way men are so often portrayed as stupid and oafish in soap operas, to name just one example. Then there are examples like male primary school teachers. it also annoys me that cancer awareness campaigns often ignore male cancers. My granddad died of breast cancer. Yet all the breast cancer awareness is aimed at women. Also, a lot of issues percieved as feminist issues, such as domestic violence, sexual violence and eating disorders, affect men as well as women and it's frequently a lot harder for men to get help, or even get taken seriously, when they have these problems.
Prejudice against white people - I don't think i've ever been discriminated against for being white. I was actually once the victim of discrimination (quite a serious incident) for being English, by a Welsh person. And believe me there's been a LOT of that over the centuries in the British isles, mostly against the Irish, but also against the Scottish and Welsh, but also backlash against English because of this. To the point of acts of terrorism resulting in many getting killed.
To take this discussion a step further, the terms "black" and "white" totally do my head in because they are not even remotely homogenous groups. Black is many diverse countries spanning nearly the entire continent of Africa, all the descendants of people from these countries wherever they live now, and some people use it to mean all native Australians, South Asians and anyone else with really dark skin. White is all of Europe, the many and varied people who originate from Europe, and a significant part of the middle east, at least. Maybe a few other people I haven't thought of.................. yet they're reduced to homogenous groups by the terms "black" and "white", as though they are all alike, and by some judged accordingly. So assuming, for example, that all "whites" are privileged, is not really fair on someone who (for example) grew up as a Catholic* in Northern Ireland while the troubles there were at their worst and Catholics were being badly oppressed.... so you can't assume based on skin colour that someone has never experienced discrimination, ethnic violence, living under constant threat of violence, living under oppression by another ethnic/class/whatever group.
*ethnic group defined by religion, but the protestant v catholic conflict there is not about religion, the groups are defined that way, that is all............ the situation is a lot better nowadays, I'm referring to what it was like in the 80s and thereabouts.
so yeah........ treat people as individuals................0
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