The plight of the plateau

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  • pavrg
    pavrg Posts: 277 Member
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    But you're right, I should definitely listen to people on the internet instead of doctors, who only tell you what you want to hear anyway.
    No, you should listen to published, peer reviewed scientific research. There's a good chance your primary physician hasn't read one of those wrt diet/exercise since medical school, if he read them at all. He's too busy pushing pills on people with the common cold, bronchitis, high cholesterol, or any number of common illnesses/conditions that people see the doctor for.

    So please produce one such research article where an overweight person stopped losing weight because he/she ate too little.

    I also have 2 dead family members and my wife has 1 thanks to doctors being wrong in their diagnosis/treatment (oh wait, oops, you actually have cancer...sorry it took me 2 years to find that), so yea...they're not perfect. A less serious case: Toddler daughter keeps grabbing her ear, crying, and starts getting sick. Brought her in 2x, she has nothing it's what toddlers do they said. A couple days later she finally spikes a fever. Oh, now she has an ear infection and once they gave her antibiotics she stopped grabbing her ear.

    They're advisors, and if you treat them like infallable sources of authority on your own body and don't recognize where their area of expertise ends, then you run a high risk of getting bad treatment.
  • lizjoan3
    lizjoan3 Posts: 41 Member
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    http://livehealthy.chron.com/not-eating-enough-calories-weight-loss-1434.html
  • pavrg
    pavrg Posts: 277 Member
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    http://www.livestrong.com/article/70221-effects-consuming-fewer-calories-daily/
    A) That's not a peer reviewed scientific study and
    B) The "references" it links that are written by the experts don't make any mention about the magical 1000 calorie floor leading to weight retention/gain. Livestrong just made that up (something a lot of health/fitness magazines do). In fact, I'll quote a paragraph from one of its references:

    Shuold I use a Very Low Calorie Diet (VLCD) to lose weight? Note: VLCD is defined as < 1000 cal/day for a woman:

    Most people who need to lose weight should not use a VLCD. For many of them, a low-calorie diet (LCD) may work better (see The Low-calorie Diet (LCD)). VLCDs may be used to promote rapid weight loss among adults who have obesity. Health care providers must review risks and benefits on a case-by-case basis. In general, VLCDs are not appropriate for children. In a few cases, they may be used with some adolescents who are being treated for obesity. Not much is known about the use of VLCDs to promote weight loss among older adults. Some people over age 50 may have medical issues that may not make them good candidates for this type of diet.

    Source: http://win.niddk.nih.gov/publications/low_calorie.htm

    And here's the results of the actual study that was done that was linked in the references:

    Results: Six randomized trials were found that met inclusion criteria. VLCDs, compared with LCDs, induced significantly greater short-term weight losses (16.1 +/- 1.6% vs. 9.7 +/- 2.4% of initial weight, respectively; p = 0.0001) but similar long-term losses (6.3 +/- 3.2% vs. 5.0 +/- 4.0%, respectively; p > 0.2). Attrition was similar with VLCD and LCD regimens.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16988070

    There was no note of plateus or weight gain in people who used a VLCD to lose weight.
  • lizjoan3
    lizjoan3 Posts: 41 Member
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    no why dont you produce a scientific article that states encouraging a woman over 165 lbs and exercising that eating 800 calories a day is healthy and that yes you will probably lose weight but show where it states you will keep that weight off for an extended period of time. Show me the scientific article that states advising someone you dont know her health history that its safe to lose weight by starving your body. When you body doesnt have the fuel it turns towards using your muscles which can affect your heart.. If she is burning 500 cal a day exercising and only eating 800 I dont agree with that and I was only trying to give my opinion..not stating I was smarter than anyone here.. Since when do people get so nasty..Im done with this conversation..you are irresponsible to advise someone of eating this few of calories. my opinion..have a nice day...
  • yoovie
    yoovie Posts: 17,121 Member
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    ^ i like her
  • kirkor
    kirkor Posts: 2,530 Member
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    senescence

    Did you mean "sustenance"?
  • bridgie101
    bridgie101 Posts: 817 Member
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    I think people who say eat more and you'll lose weight are talking bunk, but be that as it may:

    I think what might be happening is that you are slowly gaining water on these pills, in such a way that it offsets any fat loss.

    Do you have oedema?

    Press your thumb into the shin just above the ankle, between the bones at the front. Hold it for 30 seconds. Take your thumb away. Is there a dent? Can you see where your thumb was? If so you are retaining water. Maybe your kidneys do not like your medication.

    How are your measurements? Have they changed?

    I would have a day or two off the exercise schedule and see if that affects anything. As to hunger - raise your calorie count to 1600 or something. There's no need to suffer.
  • pavrg
    pavrg Posts: 277 Member
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    no why dont you produce a scientific article that states encouraging a woman over 165 lbs and exercising that eating 800 calories a day is healthy and that yes you will probably lose weight but show where it states you will keep that weight off for an extended period of time. Show me the scientific article that states advising someone you dont know her health history that its safe to lose weight by starving your body. When you body doesnt have the fuel it turns towards using your muscles which can affect your heart.. If she is burning 500 cal a day exercising and only eating 800 I dont agree with that and I was only trying to give my opinion..not stating I was smarter than anyone here.. Since when do people get so nasty..Im done with this conversation..you are irresponsible to advise someone of eating this few of calories. my opinion..have a nice day...
    Settle down. We're all adults here, and no one's being nasty besides you.

    Where did anyone stated that eating 800 calories/day is healthy or a good idea? I certainly didn't. I (and others) merely stated that studies demonstrate that an overweight person eating 800 calories/day, for reals, will lose weight.

    The topic is whether a plateu can be caused by eating too little. There is no scientific research I've read to support that it does, but a lot of scientific research says it won't, including the source that Livestrong cited but decided to contradict because more people would rather read about how they have to eat more than about how they have to eat less.

    So there are one of two conclusions to draw: Either OP is not actually only eating 800 cal/day, or there is some other serious medical issue occurring.
    VLCD will result in very fast weight loss. The risks associated with that must be weighed against the benefits - and the benefits of rapid weight loss are *extensive* and affect the entire body.

    Advising someone whose details you don't know to stay away from VLCD is just as irresponsible as pushing that person to VLCD without knowing their personal realities.
    I'm not pushing any particular diet; just stating that IF OP were actually eating little enough food to be considered on a VLCD, she wouldn't be plateuing.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
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    Is anybody going to dispute that it is impossible to avoid losing weight if you eat - literally - nothing?

    Can we all at least agree on that?
  • Ang108
    Ang108 Posts: 1,711 Member
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    With all due respect, if you are as severely hypothyroid as you say 50mcg of Levothyroxine are not going to balance your thyroid at all. 50mcg are actually very, very low with 72.5mcg being the statistical average for people with slightly low t readings on their thyroid profile.
    I have no thyroid ( which is considered " severely " hypothyroid) and take a total of over 300mgs a day. People in my thyroid/immune disease group who are classified as " serious " all take 200mgs, or more. It took me a long time to get balanced, taking 125 mcg for over two years. I am now fine in regard to med adjustment and am losing and feel hardly any cravings and/or hunger pangs. It is really important that you are well balanced in regard to the amount of thyroid hormones you take.
  • zyxst
    zyxst Posts: 9,136 Member
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    senescence

    Did you mean "sustenance"?

    I think she meant satiation.
  • Ang108
    Ang108 Posts: 1,711 Member
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    when I wasnt eating enough calories I stopped losing weight too...eat more calories to lose..change up your exercise

    It is not possible to lose more by eating more, unless one adds a heck of a lot of exercise and does not eat back the calories.
    I am sorry, but I would like to slap the person who came up with " eat more to lose more " upside the head about a dozen times a day since I have joined MFP.
  • pavrg
    pavrg Posts: 277 Member
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    Me too. Unfortunately, it's always a standard response in any thread where someone asks about help for their diet/exercise regimen not producing results.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
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    To summarize, let's assume a person with a TDEE of 2000 calories.

    Claim 1 - This person will lose weight (unhealthily, but loss nonetheless) if they eat 0 calories.
    Claim 2 - This same person may actually gain weight if they eat 800 calories
    Claim 3 - This same person will again lose weight at 1600 calories (TDEE - 20%)

    So what exactly is the biological mechanism that can make a person gain weight in the magical range below TDEE-20% but above 0? That is an extraordinary proposition, it is not unreasonable to ask for some scientific evidence.
  • init2fitit
    init2fitit Posts: 168 Member
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    ITT: Justification for eating 800 kcals.

    Look it really doesn't matter. The matter is that LBM doesn't stand up too well in the face of huge caloric restriction. Eating more usually increases mood and motivation while lowering the risk of binge eating. I don't see why someone would want to go the the extreme of only eating 800 kcals when they could lose just fine at 1600. Its not as fast, but if you wanted to lose weight, just chop of your leg and save yourself the strife.
  • DebbieLyn63
    DebbieLyn63 Posts: 2,650 Member
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    Ok, Op stated that SOME days she only eats 800 cals. She also says that on some days she eats over 4000 cals. If she were to accurately measure and weigh all her food. And accurately log it, EVERY day, then she could know exactly how many calories over time she was taking in. Compare that to her rate of loss/gain or maintain, and then she would know where she stands and can make a plan from there.
    Until you know how many calories you actually are taking in, you have no idea what to do.

    That said, I believe for some people, it is possible to plateau after being on a set calorie level for an extended amount of time. Not sure why this happens, and science doesn't back it up, but there is enough anecdotal evidence on here to support that it CAN happen.

    But I still do not believe than anyone could actually GAIN a substantial amount of fat weight, while eating 800 calories EVERY day. It is the Cheat days, aka Binge days that cause the extra overall calories, resulting in fat gain.

    Now, back to the plateau issue. Some people,including myself, have broken thru plateaus by calorie cycling. But not how the OP is doing it. On higher calorie days you eat only at Maintenance level, NOT 4000 cals. A couple of low cal days and a couple of days at maintenance might help.
  • Ang108
    Ang108 Posts: 1,711 Member
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    In other words - too big of a deficit will stop your progress.

    It would be wonderful if that were true, because then there would be a solution for all those people ( right now mostly in Africa ) to not starve to death and save their lives. If that were true than people would just stop losing weight and their organ function would not collapse and they would not die from lack of food. People will lose on any kind of deficit until there is nothing to lose anymore. If the deficit is reasonable it will take a very long time and if it is a big deficit it will take only a few month. In Africa a person dies every 48 seconds from starvation, which is a strong word for " caloric deficit ". If there is a calorie deficit there is weight loss. Period.
  • Sarauk2sf
    Sarauk2sf Posts: 28,072 Member
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    OP: you are not logging every day. On the days you do log, are you using a food scale and logging accurately?

    Do you have triggers for your binges or could it be the low calorie days that increase the urge to binge?

    Also, with thyroid issues, you should try to keep your carbs down (low'ish) and fats and proteins high'ish. Your protein is very low at the moment.
  • PikaKnight
    PikaKnight Posts: 34,971 Member
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    Eating more to lose more is a myth period.

    please do not state general sweeping rules for the entire populace. Especially with women, many of us have been under-eating for many years and not realizing it, getting most of our daily calories from coffee and such.

    It wasnt until I brought my calories up from 800-1000/day to 1500+ that I was able to break through a really long plateau and have the energy and ability to lose weight.

    Im not referring to starvation mode, Im simply referring to the fact that I stopped eating under 1000 calories a day and then zoomed past my goal weight, had more energy and alertness and became stronger and leaner.

    It is not a myth period.

    For some people, it has changed their lives and it is very kind to go into conversation on these forums knowing that there are things that we may not believe in, that may work despite what we believe.

    Also, losing weight is not a consistently exact science. For men, it almost can be from time to time, but their hormone cycles are nowhere near the intensity as ours, nor does it affect your eating habits or nutritional needs. For us, it does. That automatically makes it different for us.

    If someone out there is eating too little and dying to lose weight, it just isnt kind to tell them that eating more to lose weight is a fairytale.

    Let them experiment for themselves, because learning how to research, teach themselves and get to know their own bodies and what works for THEM is the reason we want them here, so they can succeed.

    No ridiculous sweeping generalizations for women who eat too little, from a guy who doesnt have a body that has to prepare for possible baby incubation each month, pretty please :)

    It isn't a myth - for some of us - it's a life saver - or at least, a sanity saver.

    :flowerforyou:

    ^This was awesome written Yoovie! :flowerforyou:
  • MartiCat70
    MartiCat70 Posts: 59 Member
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    A "severe" thyroid problem on only 50mcg of Levothyroxine? I'm at 112mcg. A doctor just found my thyroid problem. I didn't know anything was wrong. Hmmm. Anyway, I'm losing beautifully keeping my calories at 1200. I don't have splurge days. If I only ate 800 calories a day, I probably would binge too. It's finding what you're comfortable with I think.
    I don't think I believe in starvation-mode either, but it's a good argument. There's nothing wrong with a friendly debate. Try not to take it so personally.

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