Beachbody coaches
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So, that's assuming you make the sale - if not, you have to purchase yourself to stay active. Which means that essentially you do have to pay to be assigned people to coach. Doesn't that seem off to you?0
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So, that's assuming you make the sale - if not, you have to purchase yourself to stay active. Which means that essentially you do have to pay to be assigned people to coach. Doesn't that seem off to you?
That's one of my complaints. It does seem off to me, because they are always talking about the low startup fee and the low monthly fee to be a coach, but if nobody buys anything, then you are right...YOU have to pay more money for something you might not need if you want to stay active that month. This is an huge problem for the people low on the totem pole (coach, Emerald coach) because you can't get new customers assigned to you unless you are active...so I can see where you assume you are paying for the customers at first which defeats the purpose of "customers" who buy from you...
But I also believe that if you are a good coach and can attract people to Beachbody by doing more than selling and trying to convince them to be coaches, then you will be successful.
My coaches became coaches because they were attracted to the idea of helping people, not because they wanted to get rich and sell Shakeology doing it.0 -
I think what we're seeing a lot of, especially on social networking sites such as Facebook, are 'true' coaches and those who abuse the coach status and then drag the true coaches down along with them. I can't tell you how many Facebook posts I see that promise you to "Make tons of money while you lose weight" and the like. It's ALL they post on their FB status, and I personally find it nauseating. Do these coaches really think that they're going to build their business by spamming people? Do people really respond to that? The kicker is that oftentimes, I've fun into people who could use a good coach, but they're so turned off by another Beachbody Coach that they think all of us are money grubbing a**holes.
I've been coaching for about a year and a half. I've been a product of the product for two years...P90X, P90X+, Insanity, CLX, Turbo Fire, Turbo Jam, etc. My goal as a coach is to help others on their journey. Period. If I make some money along the way, that's awesome. However, I agree with a lot of the same things that many of you have stated above.
Dragging people in as coaches just to get more people coaching isn't the way to accomplish the goal of fighting obesity. You truly do need people who CARE about that aspect, and who are actually willing to coach their 'coachees' towards those goals. I see a trend with Beachbody that's pushing two aspects: Coaching and Shakeology. While I think both are great things (seriously, I LOVE my Shakeology and it really has improved many aspects of my health), but Beachbody has to be more than that, and I do think that coaches who really do coach should be rewarded for that aspect, rather than by how many coaches they sign or how many people get Shakeology on HD.
I currently have a customer base of about 280 'coachees.' I have personally sent 'welcome' e-mails to each of them, I friend them on Facebook, I check in regularly, I chat on FB, etc. Many of these people have become people whom I truly care about...they're people that I would consider to be my friends. I know their life frustrations, their current injuries, the names of their kids. They also know that when they're discouraged or frustrated or overjoyed with their progress, I'm someone they can share it with. That, to me, is what makes the entire coaching thing worthwhile.
Are you my twin? :flowerforyou:
I agree with everything you said.0 -
So, that's assuming you make the sale - if not, you have to purchase yourself to stay active. Which means that essentially you do have to pay to be assigned people to coach. Doesn't that seem off to you?
That's one of my complaints. It does seem off to me, because they are always talking about the low startup fee and the low monthly fee to be a coach, but if nobody buys anything, then you are right...YOU have to pay more money for something you might not need if you want to stay active that month. This is an huge problem for the people low on the totem pole (coach, Emerald coach) because you can't get new customers assigned to you unless you are active...so I can see where you assume you are paying for the customers at first which defeats the purpose of "customers" who buy from you...
But I also believe that if you are a good coach and can attract people to Beachbody by doing more than selling and trying to convince them to be coaches, then you will be successful.
My coaches became coaches because they were attracted to the idea of helping people, not because they wanted to get rich and sell Shakeology doing it.
Please don't misunderstand - I am looking at coaching simply because I am always helping people with diet and exercise, in addition to the BeachBody products. I'm just very reluctant to join a system that will make me pay for helping people! A small monthly fee is pretty negligible, in my opinion, but a required sale of 50 PV or you pay the difference is just wrong. If you don't make your monthly PV, and are there fore considered 'inactive', are your customers re-assigned to another coach?
I've never ever heard from my assigned coach - couldn't even tell you her name - and I've owned and purchased BB products for the last four years, at least! Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for Beachbody to reward coaches based on the customer's satisfaction? I would think that a four star rating from the customers of a particular coach should bear much more weight than a four diamond status for selling more people to coaching and Shakeology. (sorry - guess that's really kind of a rant, isn't it?)0 -
So, that's assuming you make the sale - if not, you have to purchase yourself to stay active. Which means that essentially you do have to pay to be assigned people to coach. Doesn't that seem off to you?
That's one of my complaints. It does seem off to me, because they are always talking about the low startup fee and the low monthly fee to be a coach, but if nobody buys anything, then you are right...YOU have to pay more money for something you might not need if you want to stay active that month. This is an huge problem for the people low on the totem pole (coach, Emerald coach) because you can't get new customers assigned to you unless you are active...so I can see where you assume you are paying for the customers at first which defeats the purpose of "customers" who buy from you...
But I also believe that if you are a good coach and can attract people to Beachbody by doing more than selling and trying to convince them to be coaches, then you will be successful.
My coaches became coaches because they were attracted to the idea of helping people, not because they wanted to get rich and sell Shakeology doing it.
Please don't misunderstand - I am looking at coaching simply because I am always helping people with diet and exercise, in addition to the BeachBody products. I'm just very reluctant to join a system that will make me pay for helping people! A small monthly fee is pretty negligible, in my opinion, but a required sale of 50 PV or you pay the difference is just wrong. If you don't make your monthly PV, and are there fore considered 'inactive', are your customers re-assigned to another coach?
I've never ever heard from my assigned coach - couldn't even tell you her name - and I've owned and purchased BB products for the last four years, at least! Wouldn't it make a lot more sense for Beachbody to reward coaches based on the customer's satisfaction? I would think that a four star rating from the customers of a particular coach should bear much more weight than a four diamond status for selling more people to coaching and Shakeology. (sorry - guess that's really kind of a rant, isn't it?)
It's really ashame that you never heard from your coach. If you do decide to become a coach I would not reward them by becoming a coach under them. You can ask to have your coach switched to another person. I think the reason why they ask coaches to have the 50 pv is partially for that very reason. If someone isn't active they shouldn't make money from your sale. Also one of their philosophies is to be a product of the product. The coaches who don't or haven't used the products usually become inactive.
Me personally I am building a slow business. I have been a coach since early 2008 and only became emerald 3 or 4 months ago. I only wanted people on my team who were going to actually coach. I feel if you don't have time to communicate with me, I don't need you on my team. Of course I want to build a big business, but my main purpose is to help people achieve their goals no matter what they are.
All the best,
Stu0 -
I'd like to thank all the coaches who contributed to this post. It's really made me re-evaluate my life as a Beachbody coach. So much of the business is about signing up coaches quickly to climb the ladder, etc. Even my own 4-star diamond upline coach is guilty of posting on Facebook about how you can make tons of money, etc. She is a founding coach as well. She even used Christine Dwyer, I think still the highest-ranked coach in the system, as an example. I know personally it's been impossible for me to sign up coaches. The few people I think would be amazing at helping others aren't interested.
I remain active because I do drink Shakeology every month. It's been something I look forward to so I can't say I begrudge them the 50 PV. If I hadn't been on Shakeology, that'd be a different story.
I just feel so sad that we can't change Beachbody back into the business it seemed to be in the beginning. These new coaching promotions drive me insane. Twitter and Facebook are clogged with posts about becoming coaches. Make money, for free! Etc, etc. There are so many irresponsible people who have become coaches that the system is flooded with horrible examples. Compare that with an ill-prepared customer service team, and people everywhere dislike Beachbody.
I'm really going to use these discussions to change my business. I'll no longer target people for discounts; only for coaching. When I was assigned a coach, he never messaged me or contacted me. I switched over to my boyfriend, who became a coach this January, and the results speak for themselves. I think I'll focus more on teaching fitness classes and trying to just make all of this a side business to complement both my personal fitness goals and paying job. I don't want to *kitten* out my friends just to be successful, financially, as a coach.
So again, thank you to everyone. I feel really at peace now that I've come to this decision.0 -
Please don't misunderstand - I am looking at coaching simply because I am always helping people with diet and exercise, in addition to the BeachBody products. I'm just very reluctant to join a system that will make me pay for helping people! A small monthly fee is pretty negligible, in my opinion, but a required sale of 50 PV or you pay the difference is just wrong. If you don't make your monthly PV, and are there fore considered 'inactive', are your customers re-assigned to another coach?
If you want to do it as a business, then yes, business expenses come into play. If you become inactive, no, you don't lose your customers. But, customers can change their coach at any time. So if a customer is assigned a coach who isn't able to help them, it's easy to search the message boards for someone who perhaps has done the program they need help with.
Is someone who's done the program necessarily a better coach, no. What about someone who's already lost all the weight, again, no. They can be, but having completed a program doesn't necessarily make them a better coach. And if it did, should you have completed every program, and used every supplement, before you can coach someone one that program, or recommend for or against a supplement?
Someone mentioned that if a customer returns a product, you lose your commission, and that's more money in Carl's pocket. Not sure how that calculates out, or why you would expect to keep the money from a sale that basically didn't occur. If they customer gets there money back, there's no money in anyone's pocket, except the customer's.
It seems like some of the "coaches" are frustrated with the route other coaches are taking their business, or how they are doing it. If spamming FB is bad for their business, let them fail their own businesses. Build your own reputation the way you want it to be. And if helping people is all you really want to do, get out in your local community. There are thousands of people there who need help, and many of them probably have never heard of Beachbody coaches, so don't have the "bad impression" of what coaches are.
We can either be part of the problem, or part of the solution.0 -
I am a new coach and haven't really started reaching out to others. The products and the discount is what encouraged me to sign up. I'm not in it to make money but to help others. I purchase the products and then share with my coworkers. I keep my dvd's at work so we can all workout together. I know they are motivated when they workout with other people so every program I've purchased stays at work.
The business side of Beachbody I haven't really looked into. I see tons of people promoting themselves and letting others know about signing up. That's great for them if they have the time to run their business and treat the people right.
I love the fact that Beachbody's products are worth their money so if someone is promoting it and making money off it, that's cool. At least I trust what they are selling.0 -
Well, this thread got me to doing a lot of thinking too. It's been a while since I was proactive with my customers. I would never ignore an e-mail from one of them, but I haven't checked in on them in quite a while. A big part of the reason is that most of the e-mails bounce back anyway, but not all do, so that's not a very good excuse.
I just sent an e-mail to all of my customers letting them know I am here for them. I hope it gets through to them and that I am able to help someone as a result. I feel pretty good about this.
Thanks for inspiring me!0 -
I just signed up as a beachbody coach and let me tell you.. I am so EXCITED! I am looking forward to motivating people and helping them reach their fitness goals! I think that helping others stay motivated that will keep me motivated as well! I am more interested in helping people and getting them fit than anything else so that way they can be happy. I use to always wish I was someone else and now after working out with P90X I am starting to like who I am.
I am currently in my first round of P90X, I am on my 6th week. I am currently doing the classic version and after I complete this round I am thinking about doing the Brazil Butt Lift or Turbo Fire maybe even the ChaLEAN. Today I just received my first order of shakeology and OMG, it's amazing! It's the best stuff I have ever tried. I am mailing this box over to my husband who is currently deployed in Afghanistan. So I am going to have to order some for me!
Like I said I am new as a beachbody coach, but I am 100% devoted to helping people!!0 -
We have several people coming to give talks and workshops on the business aspects. Craig Holiday is visiting and throwing an event for everyone here in Florida. My fellow coach and I really want to talk to him about business and get some help/advice. After all, he's personally helped our upline and several other coaches we know. Well apparently Craig only meets with Diamond Level and above. Diamond, diamond, diamond.
I was really into the Beachbody coaching business until this huge push to only care about A) signing up coaches, and helping out Diamond-level coaches. It's hard being in a town, almost bankrupt due to the end of the shuttle program and having no prospects whatsoever. We aren't the only coaches having this problem in our area either. But until we reach diamond, we don't get help from Beachbody or their mentors.
It's just become an additional frustration to push me farther away from coaching as No. 1 and moving teaching to that spot. I really think it's unfair to say that because we're frustrated, we're failing our businesses or whatever. I think right now Team Beachbody is failing it's lower-ranked coaches. When I can't succeed or I don't get a response back from a 4-star diamond upline, there's a problem. Why not have an event just for starting coaches?
I just wish the whole thing would refocus itself on helping others and getting the country fit. Again, just my .02. (P.S. I really appreciate that we have this thread to discuss the topic.)0 -
I think the idea of being a product of the product would consist of using some kind of supplement that they carry on a regular basis and therefore one would really not have a problem meeting their pv goals each month.0
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You do not pay for a coach. You get a free coach when you purchase a product from beachbody. No membership fee required. Beachbody wants for you to be succesful with anything that you purchase and therefore wants you to have a live person that you can contact for issues. Once you activiate your online account this person should be your only friend.0
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We have several people coming to give talks and workshops on the business aspects. Craig Holiday is visiting and throwing an event for everyone here in Florida. My fellow coach and I really want to talk to him about business and get some help/advice. After all, he's personally helped our upline and several other coaches we know. Well apparently Craig only meets with Diamond Level and above. Diamond, diamond, diamond.
I was really into the Beachbody coaching business until this huge push to only care about A) signing up coaches, and helping out Diamond-level coaches. It's hard being in a town, almost bankrupt due to the end of the shuttle program and having no prospects whatsoever. We aren't the only coaches having this problem in our area either. But until we reach diamond, we don't get help from Beachbody or their mentors.
It's just become an additional frustration to push me farther away from coaching as No. 1 and moving teaching to that spot. I really think it's unfair to say that because we're frustrated, we're failing our businesses or whatever. I think right now Team Beachbody is failing it's lower-ranked coaches. When I can't succeed or I don't get a response back from a 4-star diamond upline, there's a problem. Why not have an event just for starting coaches?
I just wish the whole thing would refocus itself on helping others and getting the country fit. Again, just my .02. (P.S. I really appreciate that we have this thread to discuss the topic.)
BB fighting within oneself, who knew! I have no clue how some of you make money on here, so so soooooooo many coaches pushing at each of us to buy your products, some will buy. Many become very very turned off on the daily sales pitches...it's gets old, real old quick.:frown:
edited: spelling0 -
You do not pay for a coach. You get a free coach when you purchase a product from beachbody. No membership fee required. Beachbody wants for you to be succesful with anything that you purchase and therefore wants you to have a live person that you can contact for issues. Once you activiate your online account this person should be your only friend.
It should actually read be your first friend, you are able to add friends as you are on here.0 -
We have several people coming to give talks and workshops on the business aspects. Craig Holiday is visiting and throwing an event for everyone here in Florida. My fellow coach and I really want to talk to him about business and get some help/advice. After all, he's personally helped our upline and several other coaches we know. Well apparently Craig only meets with Diamond Level and above. Diamond, diamond, diamond.
I was really into the Beachbody coaching business until this huge push to only care about A) signing up coaches, and helping out Diamond-level coaches. It's hard being in a town, almost bankrupt due to the end of the shuttle program and having no prospects whatsoever. We aren't the only coaches having this problem in our area either. But until we reach diamond, we don't get help from Beachbody or their mentors.
It's just become an additional frustration to push me farther away from coaching as No. 1 and moving teaching to that spot. I really think it's unfair to say that because we're frustrated, we're failing our businesses or whatever. I think right now Team Beachbody is failing it's lower-ranked coaches. When I can't succeed or I don't get a response back from a 4-star diamond upline, there's a problem. Why not have an event just for starting coaches?
I just wish the whole thing would refocus itself on helping others and getting the country fit. Again, just my .02. (P.S. I really appreciate that we have this thread to discuss the topic.)
BB fighting within it's ownself, who knew! I have no clue how some of you make money on here, so so soooooooo many coachs pushing at each of us to buy your products, some will buy. Many become very very turned off on the daily sales pitches...it's gets old, real old quick.:frown:
Every organization experiences growing pains. At least people are doing something about their health, both financially and physically.0 -
I am a coach and I have mixed feelings about the whole thing. I'm going to be candid and sorry if I step on toes...but it was asked.
I have been a coach since 2007. When I first signed up, it was after I had finished Power 90 and a round of Turbo Jam, and I was in very good shape. I became a coach because the programs work if you have the knowledge base of nutrition and keep up up with your workouts. I wanted to help people gain this knowledge so that they could be successful and reach their goals as well.
But, anyone can be a coach. I don't agree with this. The reason I say that is because I would personally want a coach who has finished their journey, lost weight, gained muscle, etc. to help me reach my goals. There are so many coaches that have not does this and I don't see how they can "coach" me to my goals when they haven't even reached theirs. Yes, they can help and support me, but that's why we are here on THIS website. And we don't get "paid" to be here.
That being said, all those coaches who are like that truly do give the rest of us a bad name. People on this website complain about Beachbody coaches all the time, because they think we are ALL out there to make a buck and not really help people reach their goals. Unfortunately, with Carl Daikeler's "Game Plan," he has made it clear that the focus of coaches should be to get more coaches. I'm sorry, but not everyone has what it takes to coach someone. I just don't see how someone who has never done P90X, has never drank Shakeology, or still hasn't dropped below that 200 mark when their goal weight is 125 can possibly help me to lose weight and get in shape when I have purchased P90X and Shakeology and I already weight less than they do. It's like going to an overweight nutritionist when you make your doctor's appointment: you will take everything they say with a grain of salt...
There are several reputable coaches on this site (two that come to mind on this thread is PJilly & Lyadeia) that don't advertise except to help by responding to fitness questions. They don't blatantly jump in and advertise the fact that they want you as a customer/coach, those are the ones that will continue to hold respect in the eyes of future customers. Not those that fight other coaches posting threads trying to beat out other coaches for customers, that's an absolute turn off.:ohwell:
I agree with what was shared above about some of the 'coaches' giving the reputable ones a bad name, that's very unfortunate for the ones that work hard and aren't jumpin in simply for the discount/advertising. Even I see the difference in ppl that have joined up as coaches more recently than those that have been with it for several years. As Lyadeia shared to be fit and selling the product is very different than trying to sell/represent the product being unfit.
. These are merely observations from a non=BB coach...0 -
To be perfectly honest I just became a coach a week ago even though I've been using Beachbody workout programs and products since 2005. My motivation for finally signing up was a) to get the better discount on products I routinely use and b) since I am actually a product of the products, I could educate others about things that actually have worked for me in my weight loss journey.
I certainly appreciate everyones comments in this thread though. Personally, I didn't join to make money and I've been very up front about this with my upline coach. The last thing I want is pressure to meet sales goals and someone hounding me every day about it.
Sharon0 -
You are right Stoooooo. Thats what I meant. Not that you couldnt have other friends. Sorry if I misled anyone.0
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I just started as a beachbody coach and I am so excited to help others reach their fitness goals and dreams! I think it'll help motivate me to stay on course to reach mine as well! My only issue is that I just moved and I don't know anyone here yet, the money doesn't mean anything to me. What I want is to help America get fit and healthy!!0
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I joined as a BB coach about 2 months ago. I joined for the combination of getting the discount and helping people while on my own journey. I look forward to gaining experience with more of the BB programs as I go and gaining more and more information about BB and fitness in general. I can't think of a better thing to share with people other than health and fitness. I don't look at it as a way to get rich. The accountability factor is huge as a coach. I'm currently doing Turbo Jam and have done Slim in 6 in the past.0
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Well apparently Craig only meets with Diamond Level and above. Diamond, diamond, diamond.
I was really into the Beachbody coaching business until this huge push to only care about A) signing up coaches, and helping out Diamond-level coaches. ...until we reach diamond, we don't get help from Beachbody or their mentors.
When I can't succeed or I don't get a response back from a 4-star diamond upline, there's a problem. Why not have an event just for starting coaches?0 -
Well apparently Craig only meets with Diamond Level and above. Diamond, diamond, diamond.
I was really into the Beachbody coaching business until this huge push to only care about A) signing up coaches, and helping out Diamond-level coaches. ...until we reach diamond, we don't get help from Beachbody or their mentors.
When I can't succeed or I don't get a response back from a 4-star diamond upline, there's a problem. Why not have an event just for starting coaches?
Exactly! Plus 90 days to Excellence by Craig Holiday is in the back office.0 -
I think what we're seeing a lot of, especially on social networking sites such as Facebook, are 'true' coaches and those who abuse the coach status and then drag the true coaches down along with them. I can't tell you how many Facebook posts I see that promise you to "Make tons of money while you lose weight" and the like. It's ALL they post on their FB status, and I personally find it nauseating. Do these coaches really think that they're going to build their business by spamming people? Do people really respond to that? The kicker is that oftentimes, I've fun into people who could use a good coach, but they're so turned off by another Beachbody Coach that they think all of us are money grubbing a**holes.
I've been coaching for about a year and a half. I've been a product of the product for two years...P90X, P90X+, Insanity, CLX, Turbo Fire, Turbo Jam, etc. My goal as a coach is to help others on their journey. Period. If I make some money along the way, that's awesome. However, I agree with a lot of the same things that many of you have stated above.
Dragging people in as coaches just to get more people coaching isn't the way to accomplish the goal of fighting obesity. You truly do need people who CARE about that aspect, and who are actually willing to coach their 'coachees' towards those goals. I see a trend with Beachbody that's pushing two aspects: Coaching and Shakeology. While I think both are great things (seriously, I LOVE my Shakeology and it really has improved many aspects of my health), but Beachbody has to be more than that, and I do think that coaches who really do coach should be rewarded for that aspect, rather than by how many coaches they sign or how many people get Shakeology on HD.
I currently have a customer base of about 280 'coachees.' I have personally sent 'welcome' e-mails to each of them, I friend them on Facebook, I check in regularly, I chat on FB, etc. Many of these people have become people whom I truly care about...they're people that I would consider to be my friends. I know their life frustrations, their current injuries, the names of their kids. They also know that when they're discouraged or frustrated or overjoyed with their progress, I'm someone they can share it with. That, to me, is what makes the entire coaching thing worthwhile.
You said you
I currently have a customer base of about 280 'coachees.' You have that many COACHES signed under you? Or, did you mean customers? If coaches...wow.
Edited to add - I have noticed SEVERAL of the coaches commenting on this thread have links to their sites (shakeology and coach site) in their signatures. MFP has a policy that states "no links allowed" in their signature.
I mention I am a coach in mine, but do NOT link to my site.
Just sayin'.
See for yourself:
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/forums/signature (on the right it states "signature rules".)
Thanks!0 -
I have noticed SEVERAL of the coaches commenting on this thread have links to their sites (shakeology and coach site) in their signatures. MFP has a policy that states "no links allowed" in their signature.0
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I definitely didn't notice that links weren't allowed, whoops!!! I've promptly removed mine, I don't want to get in trouble for it since I've only been a coach for a week. I haven't seen anything about links in profiles though.0
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00trayn,
I knew you were a newer coach, and therefore, you might not realize or known to look for the mention of no links in signatures.
Congrats on becoming a Coach. I hope you have a supportive and positive sponsor coach and that you are provided with all the tools to help you grow your business the way YOU want to.
About the links.....There are a dozen or so coaches that DO know better (about the link in their signature) and just blatantly disregard. That is what angers me.
Oh, and I DID report this thread so that the admins could see and contact those who are in violation.
I have no problem admitting that.
I don't see anything that says you can't link in your profile though, so you should be fine.0 -
I have noticed SEVERAL of the coaches commenting on this thread have links to their sites (shakeology and coach site) in their signatures. MFP has a policy that states "no links allowed" in their signature.
Actually a better way to handle it would be to take the time to write the coach who offended you and tell them so. After all were are all in this together. Just my 2cents.
p.s. mine isn't an active line just a website. You actually have to copy and paste mine.0 -
stoooo,
It is still self promotion whether or not it's a link or you have to copy and paste.
DO I make mention that I am a coach and my group x certifications? Yes....but I don't link to sites or profiles, whether an active link or not.
I actually HAVE contacted coaches to gently remind them of the policy however. I just think that this particular thread is SCREAMING with all the self promoting coaches. What better way to get so many of their attention than to post in the very place they are all congregating?
And, we are NOT all in this together. Some of us are in it for different reasons. I am in it to meet new people, share my love of the products I personally use, and to answer questions from those who ask.
I am not in it to be the next Christine Dwyer (no offense to her or her success), multi-diamond coach.
So, I am NOT in it with those kinds of coaches.
Thanks though0 -
At this risk of bringing down much hate and discontent, I am a little bit suspicious of the Beachbody Coach thing. Seems like 50% of the folks on MFP are Coaches... and by definition are looking to not only sell you something but also to convince you to sign up as a Coach under them. This kind of reminds me of Amway. Both Amway and Beachbody have good products, but the pyramid marketing approach overshadows this.0
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