Heavy lifting gurus- help me out!
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YouHadMyCuriosity
Posts: 218 Member
I'm still about 8lbs from my goal weight, which is the weight that I've always felt I looked and felt the best at. However, I was VERY sedentary at the time, and have been really trying to focus on exercise and strength. Once I'm done with my kettlebell program in 3 weeks (it's a full body workout, 3x a week- I am doing it to gain some strength and learn some exercises since I'm starting out a total noob), I want to start heavy lifting with free weights.
I understand that at a deficit, I cannot gain muscle- my question is, when do I start bulking? Should I get to my goal weight of 124 and start slowly adding some calories? Or should I go a bit below my goal and then start? I have never in my life PURPOSELY eaten over maintenance, so I'm a little confused. Note: I don't really care about the number on the scale after I start lifting if I'm gaining muscle- I'd rather be a lean, strong 130lbs than a mushy, weak 120lbs. The whole bulking/cutting concept is a just a little confusing to me.
Any advice would be welcome!
I understand that at a deficit, I cannot gain muscle- my question is, when do I start bulking? Should I get to my goal weight of 124 and start slowly adding some calories? Or should I go a bit below my goal and then start? I have never in my life PURPOSELY eaten over maintenance, so I'm a little confused. Note: I don't really care about the number on the scale after I start lifting if I'm gaining muscle- I'd rather be a lean, strong 130lbs than a mushy, weak 120lbs. The whole bulking/cutting concept is a just a little confusing to me.
Any advice would be welcome!
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Replies
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Start bulking when you feel like. Everyone is different so this question is entirely subjective. Some people, myself included, get super lean then bump their calories up by 200 over maintenance and bulk slowly and rather 'clean'. You'll probably find this method ideal because you said "I'd rather be a lean, strong 130lbs"
What I can say though, from experience, is don't bulk or cut for too long. I'd stick to about 3 month periods at most for either.
hope this helps0 -
What I can say though, from experience, is don't bulk or cut for too long. I'd stick to about 3 month periods at most for either.
hope this helps
Whys this ?
I initially came on here to loose some weight. I lost a few pound then decided I wanted to I wanted to start trying to add muscle as Id started in the gym. I was impatient and kinda wish id lost some more of the unwanted weight 1st looking back on it. So now I wouldn't still be feeling fat a lot of the time.
I was just assuming id be bulking for longer. So why just 3 months ?0 -
Other than kettlebells, if you're new to weight training it's likely you'll experience 'newbie gains' which means its more likely that your body is able to build some muscle and drop fat at the same time. So try not to focus on the number of the scale, stay in a deficit and get lifting
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Just to clarify - at deficit you still gain muscle!
Get your strenght workout at maintenance and then increase calories along with reps for volume.
Based on your preferences / image increase slowly to better monitor fat gains vs. muscle gains.0 -
Thanks so much guys. I'm excited to get lifting heavier. 0
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As the previous poster said you can gain muscle at a deficit just make sure you are eating enough. Add in healthy carbs when I lift lots I eat roasted yams as they help restore glycogen.
Also if you haven't lifted heavy before I recc a personal trainer or take an oly lifting class or better yet join a crossfit gym. You can seriously damage yourself if you aren't doing proper technique. Focus on easy lifts to master first like deadlift, bench press, push press before working on harder lifts. Also squats either in front or back will be really good for gaining muscle in the legs.
All women should lift no matter their size or weight loss goals. It will help much more in the long run then the cardio out the rear routine.0 -
You don't ever have to bulk if you don't want to. But it us the fastest way to gain muscles and fat (unfortunately) but no fat no gain.
As a newbie you could very well lift on maintenance and see whether you like the results, both in strength gains and looks. If you feel you need more muscle you can still start bulking.0 -
As the previous poster said you can gain muscle at a deficit just make sure you are eating enough. Add in healthy carbs when I lift lots I eat roasted yams as they help restore glycogen.
Also if you haven't lifted heavy before I recc a personal trainer or take an oly lifting class or better yet join a crossfit gym. You can seriously damage yourself if you aren't doing proper technique. Focus on easy lifts to master first like deadlift, bench press, push press before working on harder lifts. Also squats either in front or back will be really good for gaining muscle in the legs.
All women should lift no matter their size or weight loss goals. It will help much more in the long run then the cardio out the rear routine.
Thanks for the ideas! My husband has a career that depends on him lifting heavy (and he has done almost every crossfit workout, with supervision and an understanding of tecnique), so I actually do have access to him, and others, that can teach me proper form. I don't intend to start off winging it, I don't want an injury My kettlebell workout currently is extremely heavy on squats, but I really want to amp it up with higher weights- I like the results I'm seeing so far! 0 -
You don't ever have to bulk if you don't want to. But it us the fastest way to gain muscles and fat (unfortunately) but no fat no gain.
As a newbie you could very well lift on maintenance and see whether you like the results, both in strength gains and looks. If you feel you need more muscle you can still start bulking.
Since starting my strength program (while on a slight deficit), I have definitely noticed that my body composition is changing much differently than when I used to just cut calories- I can feel my abs getting harder, I have shoulder muscles for the first time in my life, it's awesome! But I would really like to get to a point where I am getting large strength increases (since I started out barely being able to eek out 2 pushups) and building some lean body mass. I think that once I get to my goal weight, I will follow your advice and life on maintenance for a couple weeks and see where it's taking me.0 -
Cut when you feel like it and bulk when you feel like it. Most likely, you will need to adhere to one or the other and ensure you give it a decent amount of time before switching. As for me, I cut until I reach the weight I want which is usually from the mid to end of winter through fall, and bulk till I need to cut again.
Anyways, if your really good about your diet and caloric intake, you can gain muscle while losing fat.0 -
why not start heavy lifting now on a deficit, get to your goal and then eat at maintenance for a while? that way you should make good strength gains and do a bit of recomp at the same time... if you then want to bulk/cut in the future, you can.0
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What I can say though, from experience, is don't bulk or cut for too long. I'd stick to about 3 month periods at most for either.
hope this helps
Whys this ?
I initially came on here to loose some weight. I lost a few pound then decided I wanted to I wanted to start trying to add muscle as Id started in the gym. I was impatient and kinda wish id lost some more of the unwanted weight 1st looking back on it. So now I wouldn't still be feeling fat a lot of the time.
I was just assuming id be bulking for longer. So why just 3 months ?
In my experience, and from what I've heard and seen from others, is that bulking for too long ends up looking fat at some point. It's inevitable that you're going to put on fat while bulking and for some people (myself included) I start losing definition, appear soft and really develop a gut (thanks genetics). Then cutting too long goes the other way, you start to see loss in strength, loss in muscle size and fullness, and a big drop in energy levels since you're at a caloric deficit and still training heavy which is very taxing on the central nervous system.
But probably the biggest issue with doing either is the mental toll it plays. Since you're constantly comparing yourself to what you were and where you want to be, to see yourself either getting 'tubby' or slimming down too quickly messes with you psychologically. Someone could suddenly reduce calories drastically for a few days or eat like a horse in order to deal with/correct their 'issue', and doing these will likely end up in some metabolic damage; not to mention the guilt-trip to follow. Having a timeframe somewhat helps putting the mind at ease and having a plan.0 -
You don't ever have to bulk if you don't want to. But it us the fastest way to gain muscles and fat (unfortunately) but no fat no gain.
As a newbie you could very well lift on maintenance and see whether you like the results, both in strength gains and looks. If you feel you need more muscle you can still start bulking.
Since starting my strength program (while on a slight deficit), I have definitely noticed that my body composition is changing much differently than when I used to just cut calories- I can feel my abs getting harder, I have shoulder muscles for the first time in my life, it's awesome! But I would really like to get to a point where I am getting large strength increases (since I started out barely being able to eek out 2 pushups) and building some lean body mass. I think that once I get to my goal weight, I will follow your advice and life on maintenance for a couple weeks and see where it's taking me.
Building strength does not have to mean adding weight, or bulking. Strength can also come from training the nervous system to contract your muscles harder in order to generate more strength. A great deal of strength can be built using this method.
Many people confuse muscle size with muscle strength. Sorry, but bigger does not always mean stronger. The best example I can give would be a couple bodybuilders from the 70s and 80s named Arnold and Franco. You probably have heard of one of them. They were training partners and the best of friends. Arnold, at his peak was around 6-2 and 230 lbs; Franco was much shorter and weighed under 200 lbs. Yet Franco was miles ahead of Arnold in the strength department. Body levers and other factors can come into play, but the point being made is size does not equate to strength.
You could right now take on a very basic program that would boost your strength tremendously, without gaining much, if anything, in the way of muscle or fat. The program is detailed in Power to the People, by Pavel Tsatsouline, who incidentally is the person most responsible for re-introducing the kettlebell back into the current fitness scene. It is a very basic program where you lift 5 days per week with 4 total sets of exercise, using basic multi-joint movements. If you read the book, follow the program for 3 cycles or so, you'll see good gains in your strength without putting on the bulk.
Training your nervous system to contract your muscles harder is a much quicker way to gain strength. I have used this program successfully. My deadlift went from 185 to over 400 pounds after several cycles and without gaining any additional bulk. Check it out. Try it for a few cycles. If you still want to bulk afterwards, go for it; there's a program in the book for doing that as well.0 -
^^ agree..
My son is 6 ft 2 and only 5lbs lighter then me. The size of his muscles are close to mine, but I'm way stronger then him. He hates that fact. LOL. he can lift more in one press, but I can hold it up longer, run faster and longer, open jar lids and carry heavy items longer then he can, jump higher (which is sad, since I can't really jump). he cant' get through insanity, combat or my full body workout routine. (in his defense, he's only 14.. so he has a bit of growing left to do and then i'm sure he'll be way stronger then me lol)
I'm working on it.. I want him fit and healthy now, so he never has to go through what I did to get here. :~)0 -
Sure, so a few things I don't know if anyone else has said. First of all, I would get to your goal weight, or maybe even a little bit lower.
It's tough to cutt after a bulk, just kinda annoying to get back on it, so just keep that in mind. Also, when you try to decide how long you want to bulk, consider how much fat you want to loose after.
For instance, a male beginner will gain about 2 lb of muscle per month, along with 2 lbs of fat (4 lb gain total, .5 lean mass per pound). Women gain muscle at a slower rate (I don't have an estimate for that) so they might gain more fat as a general rule. Anyways, right now I'm cutting, but when I bulk again, I would only bulk for about 2 months, cut for 1, bulk for 2, etc... this way I keep the long stretches of cutting down to a minimum.
That's my approach. Also, and it's very important, when you're bulking you'll feel like your getting bigger because of the lean mass AND the fat mass. Once you cut back down, you're going to look smaller than you might have expected. Just keep it up. Long term goals.0 -
Building strength does not have to mean adding weight, or bulking. Strength can also come from training the nervous system to contract your muscles harder in order to generate more strength. A great deal of strength can be built using this method.
Many people confuse muscle size with muscle strength. Sorry, but bigger does not always mean stronger. The best example I can give would be a couple bodybuilders from the 70s and 80s named Arnold and Franco. You probably have heard of one of them. They were training partners and the best of friends. Arnold, at his peak was around 6-2 and 230 lbs; Franco was much shorter and weighed under 200 lbs. Yet Franco was miles ahead of Arnold in the strength department. Body levers and other factors can come into play, but the point being made is size does not equate to strength.
You could right now take on a very basic program that would boost your strength tremendously, without gaining much, if anything, in the way of muscle or fat. The program is detailed in Power to the People, by Pavel Tsatsouline, who incidentally is the person most responsible for re-introducing the kettlebell back into the current fitness scene. It is a very basic program where you lift 5 days per week with 4 total sets of exercise, using basic multi-joint movements. If you read the book, follow the program for 3 cycles or so, you'll see good gains in your strength without putting on the bulk.
Training your nervous system to contract your muscles harder is a much quicker way to gain strength. I have used this program successfully. My deadlift went from 185 to over 400 pounds after several cycles and without gaining any additional bulk. Check it out. Try it for a few cycles. If you still want to bulk afterwards, go for it; there's a program in the book for doing that as well.
ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
me thinks you are missing the "leverage" aspect of that- if he was much shorter- he had a great deal more leverage (this is why tall people stereotypical show less aptitude for dead lifting vs shorter people who by comparison (say wilkes for example) often pull a great deal more in relation to their size.
Bigger engine = more power. Plain and simple.
There is a fun work out video of Kai Green getting schooled on atlas stones and strong man stuff- because he doesn't train it- but make no mistake- he is not weak.
MOST of the time- bigger DOES mean stronger. There is a reason car engines are build they way they are- unless they come with turbos- and that's a different ball of wax.
despite all of what I just said- I do agree with this very much.You could right now take on a very basic program that would boost your strength tremendously, without gaining much, if anything, in the way of muscle or fat
1/2 lb every week or every two weeks is about right- women float around 1 lb a month if you need a rough estimate- so I've read.Women gain muscle at a slower rate (I don't have an estimate for that) so they might gain more fat as a general rule.
I dunno- I'm eating between 2-500 over and I really haven't gained much I'm still floating between 160-164- and I weigh on a 2x daily basis LOL it's been 25 days. But I sure as chit FEEL FAT lmao.0 -
1/2 lb every week or every two weeks is about right- women float around 1 lb a month if you need a rough estimate- so I've read.Women gain muscle at a slower rate (I don't have an estimate for that) so they might gain more fat as a general rule.
I dunno- I'm eating between 2-500 over and I really haven't gained much I'm still floating between 160-164- and I weigh on a 2x daily basis LOL it's been 25 days. But I sure as chit FEEL FAT lmao.
Oh awesome, I've been looking for a number for women. And do you have a feel for the LM to Fat ratio? For me it's always been about 1:1.0 -
As the previous poster said you can gain muscle at a deficit just make sure you are eating enough. Add in healthy carbs when I lift lots I eat roasted yams as they help restore glycogen.
Also if you haven't lifted heavy before I recc a personal trainer or take an oly lifting class or better yet join a crossfit gym. You can seriously damage yourself if you aren't doing proper technique. Focus on easy lifts to master first like deadlift, bench press, push press before working on harder lifts. Also squats either in front or back will be really good for gaining muscle in the legs.
All women should lift no matter their size or weight loss goals. It will help much more in the long run then the cardio out the rear routine.
You are awesome, keep up the good advice!0 -
Thanks for posting this OP! I was wondering the same thing about bulking, and if I should do it. I've been lifting while at a deficit, and I've lost weight and inches, I'm stronger, and I am seeing some muscles, especially in my shoulders and arms, and my booty is higher than it used to be! Lol. Been doing the New Rules book, and I'm about to move into stage 2 now, so I've been doing it about 2 months or so. Also, according to my body fat analysis, I gained 4lb's of muscle. Good luck!!!!
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What a bunch of great responses, thanks guys! I really enjoy seeing the different perspectives, I guess it really is pretty subjective to what each person wants to accomplish, but it really helps a newbie like me to hear what others are doing/have had success with.0
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