Help! Gaining on Maintenence Calories

sigh.

I think you mean 300 grams, not 300 mg--which would be miniscule.

Each gr of glycogen binds to water (I've seen different numbers, from 2.5 to 4--and no I'm not going to go look up some "real science" for you, some things are well enough known. If you don't know it, then you can look it up and educate yourself.). Either way, even if it's only 2, then 300glycogen + 600 water is nearly 1 kilo, or 2 lbs. This is the big whoosh people get when they cut. This is very well known.

No, no one is making this up or trying to sell anything. Just the opposite.

I don't think we need to talk about this any longer. I don't feel fair debating you.

I just calculated my BMR and TDEE etc. in Scooby, and for my height, age, and activity level, it says I need to net

1170 - to lose (20% calorie reduction)

and

1463 - to maintain.

I have also independently calculated my caloric needs by a formula in an exercise book, on a couple of medical websites, and the numbers are similar.

Small numbers (even below 1200), are recommended and correct for some people.

OK. So, I've lost over 100 pounds . I did it by changing my outlook on food and exercise and lifestyle. I reached my goal in 14 months. Then I upped my caloric intake from 1200 to 1350 on the advice of the trainer at the gym to maintain.

I am working out hard 3 times a week and I was swimming the other 3 days. I had to drop the swimming due to the weather about two weeks ago.

I quit smoking two months ago. I have made it a point not to snack or eat more.

I have gained 6 pounds. I can't seem to lose it. Any advice would be more than welcome. Especially since I leave for vacation in 3 days!

First thing that happens when you stop a cut is that your body replenishes its glycogen stores. In a deficit your muscles don't maintain as much glycogen. If I wanted to cut down to 180 for instance, I'd actually want to cut to about 175, because I would pick up about five pounds of water weight in my muscles once I got to maintenance.

I wouldn't really sweat it, unless you really need to hit a certain scale number.

Rigger

sigh.

I think you mean 300 grams, not 300 mg--which would be miniscule.

Each gr of glycogen binds to water (I've seen different numbers, from 2.5 to 4--and no I'm not going to go look up some "real science" for you, some things are well enough known. If you don't know it, then you can look it up and educate yourself.). Either way, even if it's only 2, then 300glycogen + 600 water is nearly 1 kilo, or 2 lbs. This is the big whoosh people get when they cut. This is very well known.

No, no one is making this up or trying to sell anything. Just the opposite.

I don't think we need to talk about this any longer. I don't feel fair debating you.

Grams, of course. My bad.

So I guess you are an expert?

Then you know that within the cell glycogen is stored in the form of granules that can actually be seen under a microscope. Glycogen is packed glucose polymers that can have 40,000 and more molecules of glucose per granule.

Things forming as granules mean that they are NOT dissolved in water. There is probably some hydration between the glycogen branches, but it is very small.

So you, the expert, will have to show me the quantitative measures of amount of water IN THE GLYCOGEN GRANULES that have such a great effect on water fluid shifts.

That is why glucose is so rapidly turned into glycogen, because of the osmotic effect of the glucose molecule, which can be deleterious to the cell.

Thanks in advance!

Hey, FromHereOnOut, I've got this one. And BTW, not an expert, just a researcher.

Glycogen binding of water (not in granular form):

Biochim Biophys Acta. 1978 Oct 3;543(2):258-63.
Water binding by glycogen molecules.
Brittain T, Geddes R.
Abstract

Low temperature NMR spectra have been obtained of the water bound to glycogen. These data have allowed the evaluation of the amount of water bound and the energy and entropy associated with this bonding. High molecular weight glycogen (approx. 1 - 10(9)) exhibits water binding properties analogous to those previously found for other glycoproteins. Low molecular weight glycogen (approx. 1 - 10(7)), however, shows anomalous binding characteristics, with large amounts of associated "non-freezing" water. These findings are discussed in terms of previously proposed molecular architecture.

PMID:
728463
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

And evidence that glycogen is known to be stored in hydrated form in humans (because water binding in granules is irrelevant to this particular point):

Am J Clin Nutr. 1992 Jul;56(1 Suppl):292S-293S.
Glycogen storage: illusions of easy weight loss, excessive weight regain, and distortions in estimates of body composition.
Kreitzman SN, Coxon AY, Szaz KF.
Source

Howard Foundation Research, Cambridge, UK.
Abstract

Glycogen is stored in the liver, muscles, and fat cells in hydrated form (three to four parts water) associated with potassium (0.45 mmol K/g glycogen). Total body potassium (TBK) changes early in very-low-calorie diets (VLCDs) primarily reflect glycogen storage. Potassium released from glycogen can distort estimates of body composition during dieting. TBK changes due to glycogen mobilization were measured in 11 subjects after 4 d dieting with a VLCD. The influence of water-laden glycogen on weight fluctuations during the dieting process, the exaggerated regain if carbohydrate loading occurs, and the implications for weight control programs and overestimation of nitrogen losses with dieting are discussed.

PMID:
1615908
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Free full text

Hey, FromHereOnOut, I've got this one. And BTW, not an expert, just a researcher.

Shoot, I was just warming up to the idea that I lose and gain 3lbs of fat per day.

The answer was in the original post, but everyone has glossed over it....
The OP quit smoking recently (I'm assuming cigarettes)

There's the six pounds. easy.
Irregardless of a change in food intake, when someone quits smoking, seeing as nicotine is a diuretic, they will pretty put on water weight. That is the water weight that was SUPPOSED to be there all along, this can range from 1.5-3+ lbs, depending on the size of the person, and other factors.

Also (and I really hope alot of fellow MFP users can vouch for the importance of NEAT and NEPA), when you quit smoking, your daily burn will decrease. This is not necessarily from the cigs being a stimulant (Although....?) but more from the loss of daily as a recent non-smoker.... the cals burned to get up during the work day, and walk outside to smoke every hour or 2 or so, and the cals burned to walk to/into the gas station to buy cigs everyday, and the cals burned while you are standing/pacing as you smoke your cig. These aren't alot, individually, but they add up to a couple few 100s of cals that the ex-smoker no longer burns, daily. There's another 1-3 pounds over the month or 2.
Right here, we have our 4-6 pounds of guaranteed gain, without ANY change in calorie intake.
Then there's the insulin factor.... smoking for X number of years causes insulin issues that can take weeks/months to work out. Smoking decreases appetite, which causes your body to pump out MORE insulin to compensate, and when you quit, your body is still creating excess insulin.

Biochemistry. 5th ed.
2002

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22369/


" In fact, 1 g of dry glycogen binds about 2 g of water."




Also, steve, you are the only one who has ever mentioned low carb dieting.

Hi - congratulations on your weight loss!! There's free information at these sites that has helped me out -

http://thebailorgroup.com/

and

http://www.zoeharcombe.com/the-knowledge/energy-in-does-not-equal-energy-out/

best of luck!

Where are the studies for Guytons comments showing they are so new?

Those comments about fat being used about 50% as energy source AFTER first 3-4 hrs is rather old school, very old. After about 30 min you'll reach the ratio that will be maintained basically if you keep the intensity the same. Depending on intensity you may not even make that long, "hit the wall", and you'll run a whole lot slower and fat use will go way up.

Buried in this study are some better facts regarding the carb/fat usage, and carb loading.
The reason I show it is the facts of muscle biopsy and fat/carb usage during endurance don't match with Guyton's comments it seems. Also the recovery time taking that long has not been shown to be the case.

http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pcbi.1000960

So I'm not exactly trusting of your quotes flat out - when I see in them several points that don't match with recent studies.

What had already been found in prior studies regarding the binding of water with glycogen held out in this study with real weight changes. There is no question in latter studies because what was found earlier still shows as proof in latter studies.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/56/1/292S.full.pdf

"The energy deficit required to reduce weight with glycogen as fuel (3400 U/kg) (1 800 kcal/lb) is far less than fat (32 2 1 7 kJ/kg) (3500 kcal/lb) due to both the difference in energy contributions of fat versus carbohydrate and, even more, the large amounts of water associated with storage glycogen. Small energy deficits, therefore, early in a weight-reduction diet, can produce the illusion of significant fat lost. The case with which this weight will be regained can be disheartening to a dieter. The apparent ease ofearly weight losses can also lead to unrealistic expectations of the ability of a modest energy restriction or even exercise to achieve significant weight losses."

Where are your studies showing that all these earlier studies you claim are too old, are now invalid?

I'm not exactly in maintenance (still lots to lose), but I will tell you that I lose & gain 3lbs nearly daily. After a day of child-wrangling, walking all over the city, and a run, I come home to weigh 3lbs less. It is from loss of glycogen stores and water weight. It's also the big WHOOSH of weight loss that people get when they first go on a diet.

Total glycogen stores in the human body is 300 mgs or just over a half a pound.

With normal activity, it is unlikely that these stores drop more than 60 or 70% from that level. And if you snack and maintain carbs in your stomach, the stores will be close to 100%.

Glycogen is stored with water.

http://justinowings.com/understanding-bodyweight-and-glycogen-de/

The human body can maximally lose up to 14 liters of water per day sweating, or over 30 pounds.

With normal activity the loss is no less than 2-3 liters per day (24 hours), or at least 6 pounds.

Can't blame glycogen.

Sorry.