Ketogenic diet

tonyyano · December 2013

Hi

I've tried many diet plans that didn't work, my blood sugar was rising, my weight was creeping up, I felt that nothing would work until a doctor let me borrow a book called the "Diabetic Solution" by Dr Richard Bernstein. We'll this opened my eyes to the ketogenic diet and have followed "The art and science of low carbohydrate living" by Jeff Volek and Stephen Phinney. We'll this direction changed everything, after some ups and downs, trying to adjust my body to burning fats, ketones (instead of glucose). I finally feel like its working. I have been losing weight and lowering my blood sugar. I felt like I have died and gone to heaven eating sausages, salami, steaks, with a small amount of oat bran with heavy cream, and some greens. I am enjoying a diet very high in fats. The only problem is that there doesn't seem to be many people who eat this way and the response by many people is surprise and even disapproval. Is there Anyone else who is on the ketogenic lifestyle? I would like to compare notes if anyone is on this plan.

dandyforman · December 2013

Hi there!

I'm vegetarian keto/LCHF, and have also found a lot of resistance to this lifestyle. Conventional dieting tells us that calorie counting is the only accurate and garunteed way to lose weight permantly. There is a lot of science behind this, as well as logic. Eat less, weigh less.

Science also tells us that, per gram, fat has the highest calorie content. Carbs: 4 cals/g; Protien: 4 cals/g; Fat: 9 cals/g. So, scientifically and logically, cutting fats to save calories and feel satiated makes sense.

What science forgets to tell us (rather conveniently) is that while fats are calorie rich, they are also filling. Protien keeps people moderately full, but the human body treats excess protien the same way as excess carbs: breaks them down into glucose for storage.

A lot of resistance also stems from the history of LFHC diets. The LFHC movement came about in the 70's as a response to the growing heart disease epidemic. Most of the population ate a LCHFHP diet conventionally. If housewives in the 50's and 60's wanted to lose weight quickly, the first thing they cut from their diet was carbs and sugar.

The dietary response to heart disease was the "quick fix" issued by the FDA and the USDA as a way to deal with the epidemic quickly. What wasn't addressed was the vast changes in farming practices happening at that time, as well. A lot more chemically-treated goods were intoduced into people's diets at that time. And the results of a LFHC diet wouldn't be seen for years.

Long story short, people are quick to judge and assume. There are people who thrive on a LFHC diet, and that's great! If it works for you, that's awesome, keep doing what you're doing and keep being awesome! Not everyone is the same

For us, HFLC is the way to go!

Sources:
http://eatlowglycemic.com/2011/11/07/2-the-origin-of-the-unhealthy-low-fat-high-carbohydrate-diet/
http://www.livestrong.com/article/388545-macronutrient-ratios-in-a-diet/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient)#Excess_consumption

sdefranc · December 2013

Hi Tony,

I've been on a ketogenic diet for the last few weeks, and seen some impressive results already. I didn't find the transition too hard as I was already on a fairly low carb diet to begin with for a couple of months prior. The form of diet I'm following is 75/20/5 ratio fats/protein/carbs, with a calorie deficit to try and drop the weight (around 1800 cal/day). This translates to about 150g fat, 90g protein, and 23g of net carbs per day.

I've been monitoring my keytone levels and they've been up and down a bit, but it could have something to do with a steroid medication I'm on at the moment as well. Even so, I've been able to maintain a moderate level of ketosis (between 1.5 and 3, and occasionally higher). Interestingly, my ketone levels seem tostart low and rise as the day progresses, which is the opposite of what I would have expected.

I find the diet very satisfying, easy to stick to, I don't feel hungry or crave food, and most of the time just eat to make sure I'm getting my calories in per day, not because I feel I need to.

It certainly is a different shopping experience when buying food for this diet. It's also fun and challenging coming up with recipes that meet the nutrient ratios.

One thing that helps, if you're ever stuck trying to get your fat intake up without too many carbs or protein, is macadamia nuts. They've saved me a few times.

Also I try and make sure a good portion of my fat intake is from coconut oil, which is a MCT and assists in keytone production in the liver. I believe if you make most of the fat intake from MCTs, you can even get away with a few more carbs in your diet.

The first week a felt a bit weird, but that could also be due to surgery not long ago. Now I feel pretty good (despite undergoing chemo/radio therapy).

Anyway all the best with the diet.

Sam.

tonyyano · January 2014

Hi there

WOW, thanks for the tips, I just recently realized that protein has a non ketogenic effect, during the holdiay, averaged protein around 140 grams per day, I dropped to below 100 grams and bingo, lost weight and dropped glusose reading by 20 points.

So now I'm trying a ratio to 80/15/5 ratio fats/protein/carbs. With that, my calorie consumption has gone down, blood sugar level has gone down, energy level is up, and appitite is down. I'm surprised with the sudden change

I was wondering if the increase fats ratio (consuming more butter and cream) will increase the cholesterol level? any experiences on keto vs cholesterol?

Also interested on how the blood ketone level are measured? any brands? prices on ketone strips?

I still get blank stares and strange looks during the holiday when I eat the fatty foods, but the positive results are almost too good to be true.

Thanks again for the tips.

Tony

DaneAC01 · January 2014

Hello,
I've just recently started the ketogenic diet. I've done low carb off and on for many years and find it very helpful in controlling blood sugar and mood. I'm struggling right now to increase my fat intake over protein. I've read that the ratio should be 75% fat, 20 p, 5 carbs - however my protein and fat seem to be about equal. Can anyone offer food tips to increase the fat intake without increasing protein?

Thank you!
Dane

sdefranc · January 2014

Ha! I know the feeling of the reaction people have when they see what you eat. It really goes against the grain (pun intended) of current dietary advice. It certainly requires a leap of faith to go on this diet, but I believe the evidence is mounting for it.

I've also just changed to an 80/15/5 ratio and dropped my calories a little as well, so it will be interesting to see what effect it has. Yes, the amino acids in excess protein can be converted to glucose also.

For measuring ketones I use a Freestyle Optima from eBay which does the job but the keytone strips are expensive. I use it to take my glucose readings also every now and again, which I'm having trouble getting down but I think it could have something to do with the meds I'm on (around 90mg/dl or 5.4mmol today but has been lower). This was another reason for me changing the ratios. However my ketone levels are pretty stable between 2 and 3 so I'm not overly worried.

From what I've read you should expect you HDL ("good cholesterol") to rise and your triglycerides to drop substantially on this diet. Your LDL may rise however I don't believe this is anything to be concerned with, the HDL/triglyceride ratio is probably more important. I haven't had mine tested yet but will probably do so in three or four weeks time. A good presentation to watch, albeit a little long, which debunks many of the myths regarding cholesterol is "The Oiling of America" given by Sally Fallon, at

http://youtu.be/fvKdYUCUca8 , or another much shorter presentation is by Dr Stephen Phinney at

http://youtu.be/yP6DtqmZ3Mw and I really recommend that one also [edit: I just realised you've read his book, this is basically a summary]. It's counter intuitive but it seems eating saturated fats lowers the amount of saturated fat in your bloodstream, quite dramatically in fact (on a carb restricted diet at least).

The best part of the diet is that I never feel like I'm starving myself, or have food cravings like on normal diets. I still have about 440 kcal to consume for the day but feel like I could easily forgo them. I might throw a few eggs on the fry pan

Cheers
Sam

sdefranc · January 2014

Dane, when you say equal do you mean gram wise or calorie wise? Remember that fats have over double the caloric density of carbs and protein.

I find it useful, if not essential, to go to your goal settings and modify them using the custom option to match your percentages and calorie limits, if you haven't done so already (I think you can only do this from the website, not the app). This has been a big help for me. Then when you enter the food diary for the day you know exactly where you're going wrong, and it allow a bit of experimentation to get the ratios looking better.

However if the issue is not getting enough fat in your diet, then perhaps it's just a matter of different food choices. Ill admit there was a mental stumbling block with me at the start since the diet is so opposite to everything we have been told in the past.

All the best
Sam

Hello,
I've just recently started the ketogenic diet. I've done low carb off and on for many years and find it very helpful in controlling blood sugar and mood. I'm struggling right now to increase my fat intake over protein. I've read that the ratio should be 75% fat, 20 p, 5 carbs - however my protein and fat seem to be about equal. Can anyone offer food tips to increase the fat intake without increasing protein?

Thank you!
Dane

Lylaathome · January 2014

I'm new to this MFP and I've been reading some of the posts and I was wondering how did you determine to go on this type of Keytogenic diet. Did a doctor prescribe it for you? I assume different people and different body types would have different dietary needs. I started here on the 1st and just been increasing water and trying to do calorie counting and exercise. Being accountable
to logging my data into this website has been a great eye opener and motivator so far, but if I had a specific dietary need, I would
wonder how to determine what is the appropriate diet for me. How did you decide on this type of diet?

mrdexter1 · January 2014

Been doing it off and on all last year and getting most of my oil from olives as it s great on tuna..- been the only way I ve found to make dieting easy to stick to without a craving for carbs.

Last 6 weeks I ve really gone to town on xmas and banged over 16 lb on and boy does it come back quick and in the wrong places but no matter as its easy to shift and helped me realise the way forward and gauge exactly what I have to eat to maintain.

GiGiBeans · January 2014

Glad you found something that is working for you! I lost weight on Atkins, which is initially a keto diet. While many people find their blood work greatly improves some find the opposite, like myself. If you are choosing fatty meats rather than things like avocado, nuts, olives etc please do yourself a favor and check your blood work in 3 months.

janesmith1 · January 2014

I will be honest and thought this would be another low carb fad diet that the OP posted. However, there IS science backing up the fact that one should not be doing low fat diets - they're actually not healthy for you (!!).

FWIW, I eat coconut oil daily. It helps with a lot of stuff, if you know what I mean. I also bathe in it, put it on my hair, etc.

And I'm not on this "diet" or any diet, I just do 1000 cals a day burning them, usually more. I'm not starving either, and I eat what I want but I must count my cals.

I'm doing zumba at home for cal burns. Yeah, it's all working.

littlekitty3 · January 2014

I'm just gonna throw my 2 cents in on it coming from the opposite side of ketogenic. I did my own research on it and ketones are actually toxic to us as they make the blood slightly more acidic. Also the brain runs on glucose so if the carbs go down then the body has to find a solution to keep the brain alive. It resorts to making ketones, which some of it is used and the rest exit through urine.

The ketosis state is found in people with type 1 diabetes (not through insulin), alcoholics, low carb diets, starvation.

Although some people could argue evolution (people who consume animal products), yes this is true. Because our bodies had to adapt to cold climate when migrating and times of bad crops.

Also when you drop carbs you lose mainly water weight (think body builders right before a show).

sdefranc · January 2014

I'm glad you researched the topic and of course everyone must do what they feel is best for their own bodies.

As for ketones being toxic, this is only the case in high levels of ketones, way above what is achieved on this diet, and is known as keto acidosis. To compare the two is like comparing a diabetic with high blood sugar levels with someone who has normal levels. One is harmful, the other not. Being in ketosis is a normal metabolic state of the body when carbs are restricted, and this was the way many societies lived their normal day to day lives. So what is normal really depends on your perspective and where in the world you lived, it's not a one size fits all scenario.

When you drop carbs you will lose water, for the first few weeks, and this true of most diets. However when you have a sustained weight loss week after week, then it can't all be water, and in fact this diet is especially good at utilising stored body fat first before relying on your muscle stores (assuming your protein intake is adequate but not excessive).

One thing I should mention is that this is not a high protein diet, which is what most people think when they hear low-carb. It is a high fat diet and they can come from many sources, including coconut oil, avocado, olive oil, and so on.

I wish everyone the best on whatever diet they feel is best for themselves.

Sam

I'm just gonna throw my 2 cents in on it coming from the opposite side of ketogenic. I did my own research on it and ketones are actually toxic to us as they make the blood slightly more acidic. Also the brain runs on glucose so if the carbs go down then the body has to find a solution to keep the brain alive. It resorts to making ketones, which some of it is used and the rest exit through urine.

The ketosis state is found in people with type 1 diabetes (not through insulin), alcoholics, low carb diets, starvation.

Although some people could argue evolution (people who consume animal products), yes this is true. Because our bodies had to adapt to cold climate when migrating and times of bad crops.

Also when you drop carbs you lose mainly water weight (think body builders right before a show).

tonyyano · January 2014

One surprising thing I recently discovered on a ketogenic diet regarding water, is how important it is to replenish salt and water.

I had a couple weeks off and decided to up my exercise to 2-4 hours a day of mild bike riding or walking, the energy level did not drop during the exercise. Later, however, I felt low in energy, I thought it was because I did too much in exercise. It kinda felt like the ketogenic adaption period where I felt a little dizzy. My family was a little concerned about my lack of energy

Then I tried some chicken or beef broth, and just like that, my energy was back, I remembered then on ketogenic eating the water and salts purge out and its important to replenish them.

I was wondering if anyone else had the similar experience regarding using a soup broth to replinsh energy?

I was also wondering if anyone had a great homemade (fat from bones) receipe that fits into the ketogenic diet?

The soup broth now is a "must have" for me on a ketogenic diet

sdefranc · January 2014

We make a broth every weekend and store it in containers to use throughout the week. Usually beef, but sometimes lamb broth. It's great if you can throw a trotter or hoof, or knuckle bones in there as well, they're full of gelatin, cartilage, collagen and other benefitial bits. Doing so makes it a bit thicker in the fridge but it still goes liquidy when heated. I either have it straight in a cup as a snack, or else we use it as a stock and add other things to make a soup (meatballs, etc). You could probably make a nice Vietnamese Phở with it.

To make it, we just throw the bones in a large stock pot along with an onion and some celery, fill the pot with cold water and bring it to a boil then simmer for as long as we can, which is usually from morning to night, or 24 hours if we can manage it. Two days probably wouldn't hurt either. We've done it in a slow cooker as well although I find it doesn't seem to extract as much from the bones, but you get a clearer liquid. We then let it cool and strain it into containers. I don't add salt during the process, rather I add it later when consuming it.

You'll end up with a layer of fat on top in the fridge once its cooled, which you can either mix back in when heating or else remove and render to use as tallow to use for frying.

You are right about the salt and water as well, I found this the case.

sam

riginthering · January 2014

My body *loved* Atkins when I did it in college. Low/no carb is a lifestyle I could live for the rest of my life, but since I'm married, I don't get a lot of choice about not having the bad stuff in my home. Instead I cut out grains, starches, and refined sugars so my body has to work harder to process it and so the calories count more.

jerilynn529 · January 2014

Curious to know if anyone has tried the coffee, kerrygold butter and mct oil mixture to increase fat intake? If so, how often do you drink it in a day?

DannyProsser · January 2014

Do you have any carb days? I've done a keto diet (steak and eggs) before and I allowed myself a "cheat" day every 5 days.

leedowhey · January 2014

I still get blank stares and strange looks during the holiday when I eat the fatty foods, but the positive results are almost too good to be true.

All the time, people comment; "How are you loosing so much weight with eating Mayonnaise, sausage and so much cheese?"

I love it, and I don't feel I'm missing much, especially after a week or so with out a carb up. Which I may not even continue to have if I don't feel like I need one.
I can explain the difference it's done to my hair, it's healthier, grown thicker and longer in a matter of months, and I love every minute of the feeling of happiness.

I am never sad anymore, don't feel deprived. It's wonderful. I personally think people should try Keto before dismissing it as a stupid idea, Like how can you loose weight eating high fat? fat is bad. Lol WRONG!

Hehe

lisajsund · January 2014

Another book I would recommend is called Why We Get Fat and What To Do About It by Gary Taubes.
He goes through the history of low carb diets, how the science works (in terms of fat regulation), and suggests how to eat. He also talks about the broth to get more sodium.

My question is this: Do you really have to go so low on the carbs at 5%? I have dropped to 25-30% carbs in the last week or so and have lost 1.5 lbs. I feel great! Can some go into ketosis without being so restrictive?

sdefranc · January 2014

Curious to know if anyone has tried the coffee, kerrygold butter and mct oil mixture to increase fat intake? If so, how often do you drink it in a day?

As an Italian, I just can't get my head around it. At best, I can get away with some coconut cream in my espresso. It that's as far as I'm willing to take it!

Ketogenic diet

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