Bulk - Recomp instead of Bulk - Cut
shmoony
Posts: 237 Member
So, if one eats at a 200 calorie surplus for a period of time until they reach a weight that that 200 surplus then becomes maintenance, wouldn't a cut become unnecessary since your body would start recomping at maintenance given a strict lifting regiment and proper diet?
To make sure I'm clear, if I weigh 160 pounds, and eat 2700 calories with a TDEE of 2500, at some point I think I would reach a weight that 2700 calories would be maintenance. correct? At that point, I assume that my body would continue to build muscle while shedding fat (recomp). I can then up my calories to 2900 until I reach that weight again, so on and so on...
I guess the goal would be to avoid the loss of lean muscle that usually comes with a cut, which for some often puts them back almost right where they started.
Problems with my theory?
To make sure I'm clear, if I weigh 160 pounds, and eat 2700 calories with a TDEE of 2500, at some point I think I would reach a weight that 2700 calories would be maintenance. correct? At that point, I assume that my body would continue to build muscle while shedding fat (recomp). I can then up my calories to 2900 until I reach that weight again, so on and so on...
I guess the goal would be to avoid the loss of lean muscle that usually comes with a cut, which for some often puts them back almost right where they started.
Problems with my theory?
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Replies
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In for responses. On pure logic, it makes sense. In reality, I have no idea.
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Good question, I'd like to hear from some with experience.0
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Recomp happens when you properly train and eat at "maintenance". This is because we are always fluctuating between a cal surplus and deficit daily. We eat and are in surplus at this time the body will use that excess for muscle repair and growth. After that surplus is used we are in a deficit till we eat again and our body's go into fat store for needed energy.0
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Not quite.... As far as I understand it.
When in a surplus for most people the Non-Exercise Activity Thermogenesis or NEAT increases, causing a slightly higher over all calorie burn. This is what makes upping calories during a bulk usually necessary after a while.
When cutting again the NEAT after a while decreases and with it the associated extra burn.
So yes, maintencance calories may change after bulking, but personally I doubt that they will change as much as making a bulking intake suddenly a maintencance intake.
For myself I will have to see how it goes, as I'm nearing the end of my first bulk.0 -
I think it depends on how much of your bulk results in added muscle versus added fat. If you add mostly fat in a bulk (you start the bulk very lean, e.g.), wouldn't you end up with not adding much to your TDEE? Body composition does play a role in your TDEE.
On the other hand, if the bulk is ideal, then you would raise your TDEE and slowly recomp. Or if you started a bulk with a higher body fat and put on more muscle that the average person, then you might have good results that way.
I think your approach works for women who have lost too much weight and need to add back muscle and I've on occasion recommended this. Particularly for underweight women who need to add to bone density and the like.0 -
I think you would need to pack on a LOT of muscle to improve your BMR by 200. I also don't think a 200 cal surplus would be enough to call what you're doing a 'bulk'. I could be very wrong but I'd think with only 200 cal surplus you would already be in more of a 'recomp' situation.
Like I say though, I'm not really an expert - il'll be interested to see what others say.0 -
The fat gain after a 200 cal surplus bulk, even months and months of it, would be so inconsequential that cutting would be unnecessary anyway. Especially since maintenance would be creeping up to meet it continuously.
At the upper bounds of maintenance (which is a band, not a point) I doubt that there would be any recomp effect, just static constant weight.
Remember as well, over time the stimulus necessary to gain muscle increases. Recomping is a noob thing for the most part.0 -
I think you would need to pack on a LOT of muscle to improve your BMR by 200. I also don't think a 200 cal surplus would be enough to call what you're doing a 'bulk'. I could be very wrong but I'd think with only 200 cal surplus you would already be in more of a 'recomp' situation.
Like I say though, I'm not really an expert - il'll be interested to see what others say.
Maintenance rises in a surplus independent of muscle gain, just as it does in reverse when losing.
Gaining 200 cals of maintenance is no big deal at all and likely to occur for almost everybody within a few months of starting to bulk.0 -
I've just done the calls on Scooby and I'd have to gain 30lbs in order to increase my TDEE by 200 cals, which is a pretty big bulk. If I wanted to continue bulking beyond this, technically I would have to eat a bit more.0
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I don't think you'll gain much of anything eating TDEE+200. It's splitting the hair too thin and there's too much room for error even with precise calorie counting. My experience eating TDEE+500 is that I only gain about 10 pounds before I need to up calories another 200-300.0
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In my opinion:
1) Will you in theory eventually reach maintenance? Probably. You can't gain weight forever at a given surplus especially one that small. Upregulation of NEAT and increase in body mass will very likely get you to eventually maintain on that intake.
2) Can you then recomp at that intake?
You might be able to but I'd be willing to bet it will take a long time, especially for any noticeable fat loss. It will depend on your training experience as well. If you are untrained then you might be able to get some recomp effect. I still don't think it will be as efficient as a bulk or cut.
The question I would ask is why you would choose that method?0 -
The question I would ask is why you would choose that method?
Given how many threads the OP has posted on variations of this topic, I gather that it is his mission in life to prove that muscle can be gained without corresponding fat gain, irregardless of how efficient (or lack thereof) the process is.
Most people conclude rather quickly that recomping/tiny surplus bulking is an utter waste of time. Standard bulking/cutting is slower than watching grass grow, chop that efficiency in half or more trying to do so via the recomp/fat free route, and its real hard to see the point in doing it outside of an ED-level fear of fat gain and/or panic attacks at the mere thought of cutting.0 -
I think you would need to pack on a LOT of muscle to improve your BMR by 200. I also don't think a 200 cal surplus would be enough to call what you're doing a 'bulk'. I could be very wrong but I'd think with only 200 cal surplus you would already be in more of a 'recomp' situation.
Like I say though, I'm not really an expert - il'll be interested to see what others say.
Maintenance rises in a surplus independent of muscle gain, just as it does in reverse when losing.
Gaining 200 cals of maintenance is no big deal at all and likely to occur for almost everybody within a few months of starting to bulk.
Didn't know that.
Good news indeed 0 -
Fascinating thread. I agree that there is a difference between bulking when normal weight vs. regaining when someone has been severely underweight. I also agree that you would have had to increase your lean muscle mass a heck of a lot in order for your bulking calorie intake to become your new maintenance.
However, I do believe you could theoretically do a slow bulk, then reduce back to maintenance but keep lifting. Therefore not a true 'cut' as you are not going into a deliberate deficit. You could then perhaps do a degree of recomp at your new weight and maintenance calories?
That is all just speculation though. :ohwell:0 -
The fat gain after a 200 cal surplus bulk, even months and months of it, would be so inconsequential that cutting would be unnecessary anyway. Especially since maintenance would be creeping up to meet it continuously.
At the upper bounds of maintenance (which is a band, not a point) I doubt that there would be any recomp effect, just static constant weight.
Remember as well, over time the stimulus necessary to gain muscle increases. Recomping is a noob thing for the most part.
This is very interesting...and very good food for thought for me.0 -
Glad the OP posted this today. This (and a post by guitar jerry on another thread) has convinced me to bite the bullet and start a 'bulk' instead of plugging away at maintainance.
IIFYM has only given me a 250 surplus (probably as I'm female?) so hopefully, as Waldo says, my maintainance will catch up - rather than just ending up with a bigger gut.
Sorry for hijacking - I'm rambling now, might start my own thread0 -
You can do this. It will take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to reach any goal that includes more muscle mass. It's been proven by thousands of guys trying it. Pretty much every person tries this at some point during their lifting career.
It works well for non ambitious goals like gaining 2 lbs over the summer while staying beach ready lean. But it's going to be a slow process over the long term.
Recomping in the reverse is easier. keeping muscle mass steady, and dropping bodyfat by eating just at or just below maintenance and making gym progress.0 -
Glad the OP posted this today. This (and a post by guitar jerry on another thread) has convinced me to bite the bullet and start a 'bulk' instead of plugging away at maintainance.
IIFYM has only given me a 250 surplus (probably as I'm female?) so hopefully, as Waldo says, my maintainance will catch up - rather than just ending up with a bigger gut.
Sorry for hijacking - I'm rambling now, might start my own thread
Has nothing to so with being female. IIFYM calculator has 3 different methods to choose from; cautious, textbook and agressive. Some choose to go the "lean gain" approach and do small surpluses.0 -
You can do this. It will take MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to reach any goal that includes more muscle mass. It's been proven by thousands of guys trying it. Pretty much every person tries this at some point during their lifting career.
It works well for non ambitious goals like gaining 2 lbs over the summer while staying beach ready lean. But it's going to be a slow process over the long term.
Recomping in the reverse is easier. keeping muscle mass steady, and dropping bodyfat by eating just at or just below maintenance and making gym progress.
This is so true. If only I had listened to the other people that went through it I would be about 6 months further along. Just one of those things everybody has to find out the hard way.0 -
Fascinating thread. I agree that there is a difference between bulking when normal weight vs. regaining when someone has been severely underweight. I also agree that you would have had to increase your lean muscle mass a heck of a lot in order for your bulking calorie intake to become your new maintenance.
Adaptive thermogenesis occurs independent of muscle gain. How much varies from person to person, but 200 cal/day is not a terribly big swing.
Most people will see a 200 cal bump in metabolism on their first bulk if it follows a period of weight loss.
Between the end of my longest-leanest cut and running full throttle at the end of a longer bulk (the two most extreme points I've measured), I've seen at least 400 cal/day metabolism swing (numbers are always a bit fuzzy, could be as high as 500 cal/day).0 -
Bump.0
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Glad the OP posted this today. This (and a post by guitar jerry on another thread) has convinced me to bite the bullet and start a 'bulk' instead of plugging away at maintainance.
IIFYM has only given me a 250 surplus (probably as I'm female?) so hopefully, as Waldo says, my maintainance will catch up - rather than just ending up with a bigger gut.
Sorry for hijacking - I'm rambling now, might start my own thread
Has nothing to so with being female. IIFYM calculator has 3 different methods to choose from; cautious, textbook and agressive. Some choose to go the "lean gain" approach and do small surpluses.
Yes, I saw that - just assumed 'textbook' would be more cals than it is. Hence, the female reference - can't see a male bulking at 250 surplus if they plug in 'textbook'.
Probably for the best - the more of an allowance I give myself, the more I tend to overeat.0
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