Squats: toes forward, or pointed out?
billionhighways
Posts: 4
I'm new-ish to free weights, and I'm doing them at home with NROLFW. I started to get curious about the difference between deadlifting and squats, since as I was doing them with dumbbells the form was pretty much identical (toes forward, hip distance or a little wider, squat as low as possible, press up).
I googled it and found a Squats 101 video on Schwarzenegger's website that shows feet wider, toes turned slightly out (like malasana in yoga). I tried that, and I can go a lot deeper that way, but I had to shift down from 40-lb dumbbells to 15-lb dumbbells. Any more experienced lifters with feedback?
I googled it and found a Squats 101 video on Schwarzenegger's website that shows feet wider, toes turned slightly out (like malasana in yoga). I tried that, and I can go a lot deeper that way, but I had to shift down from 40-lb dumbbells to 15-lb dumbbells. Any more experienced lifters with feedback?
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Replies
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Toes out and stand wider than your hips, maybe shoulder width. It'll help you open up your hips and get deeper in your squats. Remember, fall back on your heels and drive down with your heels to go up. If you drive down with the balls of your feet the weight is gonna move forward and you lose the activation of your posterior chain.0
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different stances hit different muscles.. Typically a wider stance is recommended as it will hit more muscles and allow you to move more weight. Ultimately, you should find what feels right and allows you to execute a squat with good form.0
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toes are ALWAYS out.. lots of squat variants and none have two feet pointed forward mess up ur knees0
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In for the wisdom0
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toes are ALWAYS out.. lots of squat variants and none have two feet pointed forward mess up ur knees
I agree! Toes always out. As far as your width, it's something you can play around with. I tend to go a little more then shoulder width apart, but that's me!!0 -
I'd just like to say deadlifts and squats are quite different. Try to have somebody show you or look at you and tell you where they are different.
Toes don't really matter (usually slightly outward) as long as your knees move in-line with where your toes point. That means there shouldn't be an unnatural direction to where your knees go to prevent injury.0 -
I do yoga so I am familiar with malasana. I do olympic style squats vs. powerlifting style squats *most of the time*, and my coaches usually have me a bit narrower than malasana when I squat ATG. You'll have to google ATG because I can't say it on here. That being said, malasana is a great pose for working on your flexibility for your squats. My yoga teacher is also having us work on having our toes completely forward in malasana but I'm usually squatting with my toes out when I am lifting. My coaches are having me working on a less aggressive outward turn though.
Here's a really good article on squat positions and pros and cons: http://www.catalystathletics.com/articles/article.php?articleID=1130 -
This is awesome feedback -- thanks, everyone! NROLFW says "Set your feet shoulder-width apart, toes pointed forward" so it's interesting to see that the consensus is pointed out w/ a wider stance. It definitely gives me a much deeper range of motion (which is sort of the goal, right?)0
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This just out today and is a great article on squats with pics.
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2014/03/03/strength-training-101-how-to-squat-properly/#more-216280 -
I think toes pointed slightly out is the standard. I remember reading some explanation of how a forward pointing toe helps increase your ability slightly due to creating torque.0
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This is awesome feedback -- thanks, everyone! NROLFW says "Set your feet shoulder-width apart, toes pointed forward" so it's interesting to see that the consensus is pointed out w/ a wider stance. It definitely gives me a much deeper range of motion (which is sort of the goal, right?)
If you've got a large amount of weight to lose and you carry it in your belly, you might need to make your stance even wider to allow extra room for your belly (I did anyways).0 -
I am no expert, but this came to my inbox yesterday:
http://www.nerdfitness.com/blog/2014/03/03/strength-training-101-how-to-squat-properly/0 -
Toes out and stand wider than your hips, maybe shoulder width. It'll help you open up your hips and get deeper in your squats. Remember, fall back on your heels and drive down with your heels to go up. If you drive down with the balls of your feet the weight is gonna move forward and you lose the activation of your posterior chain.
^^^THIS^^^ no matter what variation :flowerforyou:0 -
This is interesting. I usually start with toes out but sometimes have to shift them inwards if my knee starts to hurt.
Time for me to do some more research, I think!
Thanks for the links, people!0 -
This is so wrong it's not even funny- WRONG WRONG WRONG- not because it is not true- but it's backwards.Toes out and stand wider than your hips, maybe shoulder width. It'll help you open up your hips and get deeper in your squats.
People: turn out does not come from the toes.
You will still goon your knees up by turning your toes out if you lack hip mobility.
The turn out comes from THE HIP!!!!! You must work hip mobility. Not toe turn out. You'll blow your knee out still if you turn your toe out and the hip doesn't have it to meet.
If you're hip will not open- your knee- and there for your toe will not safely turn out.
Straight is perfectly fine if you are comfortable- typically you can generate more torque with a slight turn out- but straight is fine IF you are aware that you need to be shoving those knees out.
Secondly- squatting and deadlifting are NOTHING alike and while you are "stitting" in both of them- it's totally different and I highly suggest you do some googling OP on techniques- and then video yourself and compare to a good quality video- and or post a form video somewhere and get a critique.0 -
It depends on your normal stance! Stand as you normally would, then adjust width of your feet to shoulder width apart. Not everyones hips are the same. Just look at females with or without children. Hip structure will decide what is or is not comfortable, and keeping your knees and hips in natural alignment will prevent undue stress on your joints.0
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I agree with the wisdom here - wider stance and toes out. But then again, try different widths and angles of your toes and see what feels comfortable. Everyones hip joints can vary and you have to sees what feels good for your anatomy. The goal is to get deep without hurting your knees (or your back if you are using weights). Squat on! :drinker:0
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I always felt the wider your stance, the further out your toes should point. On a sumo deadlift where your feet are almost touching the plates, you want your toes way out. A conventional stance deadlift with the feet nearly touching, toes are straight ahead. The same idea goes for squats.0
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This is so wrong it's not even funny- WRONG WRONG WRONG- not because it is not true- but it's backwards.Toes out and stand wider than your hips, maybe shoulder width. It'll help you open up your hips and get deeper in your squats.
People: turn out does not come from the toes.
You will still goon your knees up by turning your toes out if you lack hip mobility.
The turn out comes from THE HIP!!!!! You must work hip mobility. Not toe turn out. You'll blow your knee out still if you turn your toe out and the hip doesn't have it to meet.
If you're hip will not open- your knee- and there for your toe will not safely turn out.
Straight is perfectly fine if you are comfortable- typically you can generate more torque with a slight turn out- but straight is fine IF you are aware that you need to be shoving those knees out.
Secondly- squatting and deadlifting are NOTHING alike and while you are "stitting" in both of them- it's totally different and I highly suggest you do some googling OP on techniques- and then video yourself and compare to a good quality video- and or post a form video somewhere and get a critique.
I'd definitely agree with Jo here. From my own experience, toes and knees have to line up and if they are turned out, the hips should be too. Otherwise the strain on the knees is going to cause serious problems. For myself, I find that slightly turned out is much more comfortable and I get more torque in the buttocks that way.0 -
This is so wrong it's not even funny- WRONG WRONG WRONG- not because it is not true- but it's backwards.Toes out and stand wider than your hips, maybe shoulder width. It'll help you open up your hips and get deeper in your squats.
People: turn out does not come from the toes.
You will still goon your knees up by turning your toes out if you lack hip mobility.
The turn out comes from THE HIP!!!!! You must work hip mobility. Not toe turn out. You'll blow your knee out still if you turn your toe out and the hip doesn't have it to meet.
If you're hip will not open- your knee- and there for your toe will not safely turn out.
Straight is perfectly fine if you are comfortable- typically you can generate more torque with a slight turn out- but straight is fine IF you are aware that you need to be shoving those knees out.
Secondly- squatting and deadlifting are NOTHING alike and while you are "stitting" in both of them- it's totally different and I highly suggest you do some googling OP on techniques- and then video yourself and compare to a good quality video- and or post a form video somewhere and get a critique.
QFT.
If your knees dip inward it doesn't matter what your toes are doing, you're still going to hash your knees and ankles. FWIW, I like my toes pointed out slightly, but you have to open the hips if you want to avoid injury.
Rigger0 -
BUMP.0
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Pick a stance. Most like shoulder-width or a little wider. It really depends on what, exactly, you are trying to hit with your squat. Wherever your toes naturally go in that stance is where they belong.0
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If your toes are pointed out less of your foot is in contact with the ground and thus you "bleed" power. The squat is a functional exercise. If I placed a box in front of you or simply told you to jump in the air, you would, naturally, keep your toes pointed straight ahead.
Coming from the bigger faster stronger era in the 80's we were told to get wide and point our toes out. This does allow a deeper range of motion initially as it allows the femur to clear the hip. You can and will get the same range of motion with a toes ahead stance with your feet just at or slightly greater than shoulder width apart.
Knee damage comes into play when you allow your knees to come in front of your toes ( a result of not sitting back into the squat).
But don't take it from me, take it from the PHD...google "Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly Starrett"
After 36 years of exercise in a professional environment this is by far the best book I have ever read and every professional trainer I have come across that has read it raves about it. It makes simple sense and has helped me erradicate daily aches and pains just by showing me how to stand and move properly.0 -
If your toes are pointed out less of your foot is in contact with the ground and thus you "bleed" power. The squat is a functional exercise. If I placed a box in front of you or simply told you to jump in the air, you would, naturally, keep your toes pointed straight ahead.
Coming from the bigger faster stronger era in the 80's we were told to get wide and point our toes out. This does allow a deeper range of motion initially as it allows the femur to clear the hip. You can and will get the same range of motion with a toes ahead stance with your feet just at or slightly greater than shoulder width apart.
Knee damage comes into play when you allow your knees to come in front of your toes ( a result of not sitting back into the squat).
But don't take it from me, take it from the PHD...google "Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly Starrett"
After 36 years of exercise in a professional environment this is by far the best book I have ever read and every professional trainer I have come across that has read it raves about it. It makes simple sense and has helped me erradicate daily aches and pains just by showing me how to stand and move properly.
nope.
I land toes slightly out.
my foot is fully on the floor with turn out.
That being said- KStarr is great- although I am not sure I could spend that kind of money on that book- it's a terribly put together book.0 -
I just saw a video two days ago showing modifications to squats. They said toes forward works the outter thighs (I think) and toes out works the inner thighs (this I remember for sure). They compared toes out to ballet dancers as part of the reason for "dancers legs".0
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bump to read later0
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It is hard to get good form with dumbbells if you have your arms holding them down by your sides. Ideally, you want to use a barbell, but I know this isn't always possible. Regardless, you want you knees over the toes, wherever they end up. Go as deep as possible, so yes, sacrifice weight right now for depth (you can lift more doing a half squat than a full squat, but you want to go below parallel to get the most benefit from the exercise).0
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It is hard to get good form with dumbbells if you have your arms holding them down by your sides. Ideally, you want to use a barbell, but I know this isn't always possible. Regardless, you want you knees over the toes, wherever they end up. Go as deep as possible, so yes, sacrifice weight right now for depth (you can lift more doing a half squat than a full squat, but you want to go below parallel to get the most benefit from the exercise).
indeed
If I have to use DB- I hold them in front (like a front squat- or I put them on my shoulders. (or over head if you are feeling saucy)
only time they are down is if I'm doing Bulgarian split squats0 -
If your toes are pointed out less of your foot is in contact with the ground and thus you "bleed" power. The squat is a functional exercise. If I placed a box in front of you or simply told you to jump in the air, you would, naturally, keep your toes pointed straight ahead.
Kelly Starrett (Mobility WOD) teaches the toes more forward (5-10 degrees I believe) because he claims it creates more "Torque"Coming from the bigger faster stronger era in the 80's we were told to get wide and point our toes out. This does allow a deeper range of motion initially as it allows the femur to clear the hip. You can and will get the same range of motion with a toes ahead stance with your feet just at or slightly greater than shoulder width apart.
Knee damage comes into play when you allow your knees to come in front of your toes ( a result of not sitting back into the squat).
But don't take it from me, take it from the PHD...google "Becoming a Supple Leopard by Kelly Starrett"
After 36 years of exercise in a professional environment this is by far the best book I have ever read and every professional trainer I have come across that has read it raves about it. It makes simple sense and has helped me erradicate daily aches and pains just by showing me how to stand and move properly.
I've read Becoming a Supple Leopard cover to cover. It's an excellent book on mobility and exercise technique. That said, I do disagree with the toes "forward" (or @ approx. 5-10 degrees) with knees out beyond that. Supposedly this creates more "torque" when squatting. Personally I believe the only thing it "torques" is your knees because they're not inline with your toes. I tried squatting that way a couple times and that is the only time in my life I've ever had knee pain....Seriously.
You want your knees out to allow for better depth and better incorporation of the adductors into the movement. Having your knees inline with your toes is a no brainer - your knees and other joints will thank you.0 -
Thanks to everyone for the great tips! I'm going to start with body weight and get my form fixed before I pick up the weights again. Can't wait to put your advice into practice
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