MFP calorie burns from strength training way too low?
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No - but at the time I was just working out the calories burnt from doing the actual exercise - I believe ATP production would be a part of EPOC? (Not THAT up on all this - and my point at the time was that it wasn't just a case of being able to monitor what you were doing as you were doing it.)Did you account for the inefficiency of ATP production for an anaerobic vs. aerobic reaction.
50 cals of aerobic fuel burn is 800 cals of anaerobic fuel burn for an equal amount of ATP.0 -
No - but at the time I was just working out the calories burnt from doing the actual exercise - I believe ATP production would be a part of EPOC? (Not THAT up on all this - and my point at the time was that it wasn't just a case of being able to monitor what you were doing as you were doing it.)Did you account for the inefficiency of ATP production for an anaerobic vs. aerobic reaction.
50 cals of aerobic fuel burn is 800 cals of anaerobic fuel burn for an equal amount of ATP.
No, it is the chemical reaction that creates the raw chemical energy that is converted into mechanical energy. It happens during the exercise.
ATP yield varies for the fuel and reaction type. Anaerobic force production is hideously inefficient, which is good for burning up the cals.
The chemical math isn't purely correct though because the Creatine Phosphate system (which pretty much stores already converted to ATP fuel) can be recharged aerobically (the reason heavy sets will cause you to be somewhat out of breath afterwards) and there is always some aerobic force production even during predominantly anaerobic exercise.
The inefficiency of the chemical reaction though is plenty make up for all the rest time as compared to cardio0 -
A lot depends on the intensity of your workout and MFP can't possibly know that. Some people have minimal rest between sets (like 30-90 seconds). Some people like me have more. A lot more. On my top set I take at least 10 minutes of rest, sometimes up to 20 before I attempt it. Between sets of chin-ups? 5 minutes rest. The list goes on.
Rest duration actually matters a lot less than you'd think, to a point.
What is the rate limiting factor? Primarily glucose transport into the motor cells. While there is some degradation of the rate over time as cells reach saturation, by and large the transport rate is constant over time until you near full recovery. Whether you are resting 30 sec between sets or 2 minutes really doesn't matter, glucose transport is largely a fixed rate. With insufficient recovery output is limited, meaning you are burning less during the set, exactly balancing out the greater frequency.
As glucose transport drops off as you near full recovery, that is when rest times start to decrease the cal burn over time.0 -
Plugged in a theoretical 30 min weight session at "difficult" intensity into my UP band interface (for the stats, I'm 186 lbs at 5'5" 44 yo female). UP says that it equals a 394 calorie burn. Just figured I'd toss that number out there. MFP equates that to just under 100 calories, IIRC.
127 calories.
MFP uses this public access database as theirs, and many others actually. Once you see the walking and running descriptions the same odd levels, it's the same database almost always.
http://briancalkins.com/caloriecalc.htm
The problem is, the public database has 3 levels under strength training, I only find 2 under MFP's.
127 is Light/Moderate.
253 is Vigorous.
337 is Circuit.0 -
From the interntets:
As I understood it, it's the BREAKDOWN of ATP which occurs when we move. Then the 'production' may take a while longer - thus part of the reason it takes a while to recover from a weights session.Oxygen consumption following exercise
After a strenuous exercise there are four tasks that need to be completed:
Replenishment of ATP
Removal of lactic acid
Replenishment of myoglobin with oxygen
Replenishment of glycogen
The need for oxygen to replenish ATP and remove lactic acid is referred to as the "Oxygen Debit" or "Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption" (EPOC) - the total oxygen consumed after exercise in excess of a pre-exercise baseline level.
In low intensity, primarily aerobic exercise, about one half of the total EPOC takes place within 30 seconds of stopping the exercise and complete recovery can be achieved within several minutes (oxygen uptake returns to the pre-exercise level).
Recovery from more strenuous exercise, which is often accompanied by increase in blood lactate and body temperature, may require 24 hours or more before re-establishing the pre-exercise oxygen uptake. The amount of time will depend on the exercise intensity and duration.
I believe that was the point - that while rest duration doesn't really matter, a HRM will still count it as 'exercise time'.Rest duration actually matters a lot less than you'd think, to a point.
(Unless you're suggesting longer rests=SIGNIFICANTLY bigger burns, as a HRM would present?)0 -
Old ladies lift weights too.0
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no, it's not that at all,i'm just providing anecdotal evidence that using a hrm can help to get a handel on how many calories are burnt, but now i'm just wondering how i'm losing weight, reshaping my body when i use weights as well as other stuff,and all my info on calories burned comes from my hrm. it's late, no offence was meant to anyone, and all this fitness stuff,well it's a learning curve for everyone,me included.
You could very much be the lucky duck where it's inflated by some number of calories that also happens to be your increased calorie burn during the repair process it doesn't know about.
It's going to happen to someone. But it's rather chancy. Better just to understand that's luck, and suggest using the tool as designed.
For every tool grabbed as a hammer working on car that isn't a hammer, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
For instance me, doing HIIT, I can reach the really high HR only by walking as recovery. So while I'm reaching 92% of tested HRmax, the actual average for the session is lower than what I can maintain straight cardio for.
But different reasons for different workouts, so I don't care about calorie burn as much, except to insure the deficit isn't too great - bad for performance.
So if you are seeing fat loss and body improvements, and perhaps not much weight lost, you are eating closer to maintenance, and getting a lot from your exercise.0 -
From the interntets:
As I understood it, it's the BREAKDOWN of ATP which occurs when we move. Then the 'production' may take a while longer - thus part of the reason it takes a while to recover from a weights session.Oxygen consumption following exercise
After a strenuous exercise there are four tasks that need to be completed:
Replenishment of ATP
Removal of lactic acid
Replenishment of myoglobin with oxygen
Replenishment of glycogen
The need for oxygen to replenish ATP and remove lactic acid is referred to as the "Oxygen Debit" or "Excess Post-exercise Oxygen Consumption" (EPOC) - the total oxygen consumed after exercise in excess of a pre-exercise baseline level.
In low intensity, primarily aerobic exercise, about one half of the total EPOC takes place within 30 seconds of stopping the exercise and complete recovery can be achieved within several minutes (oxygen uptake returns to the pre-exercise level).
Recovery from more strenuous exercise, which is often accompanied by increase in blood lactate and body temperature, may require 24 hours or more before re-establishing the pre-exercise oxygen uptake. The amount of time will depend on the exercise intensity and duration.
That is only part of the picture.
Of the 3 energy systems, only the creatine-phosphate system can store already produced ATP, and the C-P system has a very limited capacity. But it is available on-demand, the ATP is virtually instantly available, as opposed to the couple of seconds that real-time production requires to kick-in.
Recharging the C-P system is part of EPOC. LIS the body can use aerobic reactions to recharge the C-P system, though not 100%, some of the recharge will be done anaerobically, the body balances the value of recharging it fast (anaerobic) vs. recharging it efficiently (aerobic).
The anaerobic "burning" of glycogen really isn't covered in the least bit by what you posted. It has nothing to do with EPOC (it doesn't consume oxygen, so obviously it plays no role in post-exercise oxygen consumption). It is an entirely different energy channel that is virtually impossible to measure in any meaningful way. It produces chemical power very inefficiently, but the system is designed to allow for very high fuel burns so despite the inefficiency, it is still capable of a very high output (much greater than the cardiovascular system allows for, which is what is rate-limiting for aerobic exercise).
Strength training predominantly uses the anaerobic breakdown of glycogen. The speed at which the cells can replenish glucose is the primary limiting factor for force output over time (whereas waste removal/inter-cell glucose depletion is what limits an individual set). Anaerobic ATP production from glucose occurs mostly during exercise. It is an on-demand system that has a small production lag (a couple seconds, the C-P system provides the buffering).
Replenishing the glucose in motor cells is NOT EPOC, it uses no oxygen. It is an impossible to reasonably measure process, yet if you could, that would tell you exactly how many calories strength training is consuming.
For another way to grossly estimate strength training cals:
Consider "the wall". Pretty much everybody that has strength trained for a while has hit the wall at some point. Where it seems fatigue just shoots through the roof and all of a sudden in a matter of minutes your ability to produce force disintegrates. If you haven't hit the wall, increase the intensity and duration of your strength training sessions and you'll hit it (unless bulking, it is nearly impossible to hit when bulking).
What occurs when you hit the wall? All local inter-muscular glucose is used up, blood glucose starts to drop and the liver can no longer match demand. The body basically forces extreme fatigue as a protective mechanism, which limits you to primarily using the much weaker fat based aerobic energy channel. Force production rapidly craters. When you hit the wall you haven't used up all your stored glucose, but a significant proportion. The body can store between 1000-3000 cals of glucose, depending on the person (training allows you to store more).
If you're hitting the wall and have a normal or elevated daily carb intake and you regularly train, chances are good you're you're closing in on calorie burns nearing 4 digits (if not surpassing that point). Your average runner hits the wall somewhere in the 1000-1500 cals burned up area. It can be different when cutting or low carbing, the wall can come much sooner (same thing in runners), but still we are talking the same phenomenon at the same cal burns that runners experience.0 -
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I know this isn't really anything to do with your original question, and I apologise for that, but I am curious - how does Stronglifts take an hour? I can do my sets in about 15 mins - am I doing it wrong? :laugh:0
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I know this isn't really anything to do with your original question, and I apologise for that, but I am curious - how does Stronglifts take an hour? I can do my sets in about 15 mins - am I doing it wrong? :laugh:
Just wait until you get stronger.
You aren't yet strong enough to require a long set to set recovery time. The stronger you get, the longer the recovery times get.0 -
Well, some people are hard-gainers...just tough to put on mass. Also, nutrient timing for bulking up is very important - especially after a work out. There's is a ton on line about this.0
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I know this isn't really anything to do with your original question, and I apologise for that, but I am curious - how does Stronglifts take an hour? I can do my sets in about 15 mins - am I doing it wrong? :laugh:
waldo pretty much nailed it- but the stronger you get- and the bigger the numbers- the longer it takes.
I started a new program 2 weeks ago- only jumping in 5 lb increments and it went from a nice 45 minutes to almost an hour and a half program. in 2 weeks.
sucks.0 -
I know this isn't really anything to do with your original question, and I apologise for that, but I am curious - how does Stronglifts take an hour? I can do my sets in about 15 mins - am I doing it wrong? :laugh:
Give it a few months.0 -
Well, some people are hard-gainers...just tough to put on mass. Also, nutrient timing for bulking up is very important - especially after a work out. There's is a ton on line about this.
Not tons of actual studies that show it matters. Recent meta-study by two well respected names in fitness show just the opposite.
http://www.jissn.com/content/10/1/53
In conclusion, current evidence does not appear to support the claim that immediate (≤ 1 hour) consumption of protein pre- and/or post-workout significantly enhances strength- or hypertrophic-related adaptations to resistance exercise. The results of this meta-analysis indicate that if a peri-workout anabolic window of opportunity does in fact exist, the window for protein consumption would appear to be greater than one-hour before and after a resistance training session.0 -
I don't know about the hard-gainer thing...I think it's just an excuse used by people who are burning too many calories.
I was gaining weight just fine before I started this program, doing light to moderate intensity weight lifting...about half a pound a week on a 400-cal surplus with MFP set to active. And it was NOT fat for the most part. You'd call that a normal gainer. Have I suddenly become a hard gainer now? No!
Maybe there are some people who can build a lot of muscle by eating just a 100-200 calorie surplus on workout days and maintenance or under on other days...I don't know. But it doesn't sound right to me, unless the person has body fat to burn. Women especially, supposedly run more efficiently off of body fat than men...and therefore might have an easier time "recomping" and actually building some muscle at or near maintenance intake. Yet even in those cases, body weight does NOT increase...muscle mass increases and body fat decreases.
Show me a person with low body fat who can easily make gains (like a pound of muscle a week on a 200-cal surplus for instance). That would be your mythical "easy gainer" in theory. Just like the "hard gainer", I'm not sure it really exists...you can't build something out of nothing, and it takes at least 2800 cal and protein to form a pound of muscle.
If the definition of a hard-gainer is really someone who has to eat more to gain the same amount of weight...why would that be so hard? Just eat more and gain! What's so hard about that??? (Then again, to be fair, I guess sometimes that's a hard concept to understand...especially if you don't understand that you're not calculating your exercise burns properly like I was...and that was the whole basis of my initial post.) I've never seen anyone truly eating at maintenance gain scale weight...I think people just don't want to put in the work needed to bulk...and they call themselves hard-gainers as a cop-out to keep themselves from having to put in that effort.0 -
I had been eating a 400-cal surplus for several months and had gained weight on it.
But in the past month, I started a much more intense lifting program (stronglifts). I increased to a 500 cal surplus most days once I started.
But since I started 4 weeks ago, I have not gained any weight. In fact, that 1 lb or so of fat I gained around my middle a few months ago from bulking is actually disappearing. So apparently I'm recomping instead of bulking...on a 500-cal surplus.
The guy who compiled the stronglifts program said to make certain (for a guy) that you eat around 3000 calories a day because it will burn off a lot. Apparently he is right...
MFP says I burn around 200 calories after an hour of stronglifts (using the "weight training" entry in the exercise diary). So I had been eating back those 200 plus the extra 500 on workout days, putting me at around 3250 cal total intake (with properly balanced macros) on workout days. And just the 400-500 calorie surplus alone on non-workout days (putting me at around 3000 on those days).
So is MFP likely to severely underestimate burns from *intense* weight training? Back when my lifting wasn't as intense, the MFP formula (including eating back exercise calories) + additional 400-cal surplus was plenty to make gains off of. It's just not happening anymore though!
I've decided to add another hundred calories on only weight-lifting days, and see what happens. (So, 600-cal surplus on lifting days and 500-cal on non-lifting days).
Please tell me I'm not the only one who went through this...it's so confusing to estimate how much I burn from weight training on this new program.
Get a heart rate monitor ... end of story?0 -
I had been eating a 400-cal surplus for several months and had gained weight on it.
But in the past month, I started a much more intense lifting program (stronglifts). I increased to a 500 cal surplus most days once I started.
But since I started 4 weeks ago, I have not gained any weight. In fact, that 1 lb or so of fat I gained around my middle a few months ago from bulking is actually disappearing. So apparently I'm recomping instead of bulking...on a 500-cal surplus.
The guy who compiled the stronglifts program said to make certain (for a guy) that you eat around 3000 calories a day because it will burn off a lot. Apparently he is right...
MFP says I burn around 200 calories after an hour of stronglifts (using the "weight training" entry in the exercise diary). So I had been eating back those 200 plus the extra 500 on workout days, putting me at around 3250 cal total intake (with properly balanced macros) on workout days. And just the 400-500 calorie surplus alone on non-workout days (putting me at around 3000 on those days).
So is MFP likely to severely underestimate burns from *intense* weight training? Back when my lifting wasn't as intense, the MFP formula (including eating back exercise calories) + additional 400-cal surplus was plenty to make gains off of. It's just not happening anymore though!
I've decided to add another hundred calories on only weight-lifting days, and see what happens. (So, 600-cal surplus on lifting days and 500-cal on non-lifting days).
Please tell me I'm not the only one who went through this...it's so confusing to estimate how much I burn from weight training on this new program.
Get a heart rate monitor ... end of story?
Not to be rude, but did you not read the whole entire thread, all 70+ posts?0 -
Btw, in case anyone wants to know, 3 days after increasing calories as stated, I'm up a pound. Granted it may continue to fluctuate, but I also hadn't seen this number in several weeks prior.0
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Good to know; was following the thread. Was experiencing flucutations my first month as well and then upping a little every day until I was seeing results.0
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Good to know; was following the thread. Was experiencing flucutations my first month as well and then upping a little every day until I was seeing results.
You know what's weird? I went through all that a few months ago when I started. I never thought I'd be going through it again! I didn't even think of it...I just blindly trusted what MFP told me I was burning like I had done all along...even though my lifting increased in intensity (but not duration...it was the intensity thing that really threw me. I actually started to think my body was getting funky...then I was like, wait a second...what's the most logical explanation here likely to be?)
So I posted this thread. And got some awesome responses that confirmed what was actually happening. Apparently this thread is helping out a lot of other people, too!0 -
Get a heart rate monitor ... end of story?
heh
DoYouEvenLiftBro0 -
I just don't bother with MFP exercise logging.. It's far too inaccurate for my liking.. I find I get a more accurate estimation from iifym.com when trying to identify how much I should eat with regards to my activity levels..0
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But since I started 4 weeks ago, I have not gained any weight. In fact, that 1 lb or so of fat I gained around my middle a few months ago from bulking is actually disappearing. So apparently I'm recomping instead of bulking...on a 500-cal surplus.
I don't think we agree on what a caloric surplus is.0 -
I had been eating a 400-cal surplus for several months and had gained weight on it.
But in the past month, I started a much more intense lifting program (stronglifts). I increased to a 500 cal surplus most days once I started.
But since I started 4 weeks ago, I have not gained any weight. In fact, that 1 lb or so of fat I gained around my middle a few months ago from bulking is actually disappearing. So apparently I'm recomping instead of bulking...on a 500-cal surplus.
The guy who compiled the stronglifts program said to make certain (for a guy) that you eat around 3000 calories a day because it will burn off a lot. Apparently he is right...
MFP says I burn around 200 calories after an hour of stronglifts (using the "weight training" entry in the exercise diary). So I had been eating back those 200 plus the extra 500 on workout days, putting me at around 3250 cal total intake (with properly balanced macros) on workout days. And just the 400-500 calorie surplus alone on non-workout days (putting me at around 3000 on those days).
So is MFP likely to severely underestimate burns from *intense* weight training? Back when my lifting wasn't as intense, the MFP formula (including eating back exercise calories) + additional 400-cal surplus was plenty to make gains off of. It's just not happening anymore though!
I've decided to add another hundred calories on only weight-lifting days, and see what happens. (So, 600-cal surplus on lifting days and 500-cal on non-lifting days).
Please tell me I'm not the only one who went through this...it's so confusing to estimate how much I burn from weight training on this new program.
Get a heart rate monitor ... end of story?
Sorry...irresistible
DoYouEvenReadBro???
This thread is one of my top ten reads now....it's also inspired me to do more homework so thanks guys.
Good luck OP please keep us regularly posted here to keep thread alive. As one of my FL buddies I know how scrupulous this guy is on numbers and research so it will be interesting.
I wish MFP had better burn and food counts. I wish someone would go through it all and triple check everything and get a more sophisticated exercise burn calculator!
Come on MFP!!!!! Stop making it so difficult!0 -
I know, right? Why are we even paying for membership to this site if they don't. . . oh.I had been eating a 400-cal surplus for several months and had gained weight on it.
But in the past month, I started a much more intense lifting program (stronglifts). I increased to a 500 cal surplus most days once I started.
But since I started 4 weeks ago, I have not gained any weight. In fact, that 1 lb or so of fat I gained around my middle a few months ago from bulking is actually disappearing. So apparently I'm recomping instead of bulking...on a 500-cal surplus.
The guy who compiled the stronglifts program said to make certain (for a guy) that you eat around 3000 calories a day because it will burn off a lot. Apparently he is right...
MFP says I burn around 200 calories after an hour of stronglifts (using the "weight training" entry in the exercise diary). So I had been eating back those 200 plus the extra 500 on workout days, putting me at around 3250 cal total intake (with properly balanced macros) on workout days. And just the 400-500 calorie surplus alone on non-workout days (putting me at around 3000 on those days).
So is MFP likely to severely underestimate burns from *intense* weight training? Back when my lifting wasn't as intense, the MFP formula (including eating back exercise calories) + additional 400-cal surplus was plenty to make gains off of. It's just not happening anymore though!
I've decided to add another hundred calories on only weight-lifting days, and see what happens. (So, 600-cal surplus on lifting days and 500-cal on non-lifting days).
Please tell me I'm not the only one who went through this...it's so confusing to estimate how much I burn from weight training on this new program.
Get a heart rate monitor ... end of story?
Sorry...irresistible
DoYouEvenReadBro???
This thread is one of my top ten reads now....it's also inspired me to do more homework so thanks guys.
Good luck OP please keep us regularly posted here to keep thread alive. As one of my FL buddies I know how scrupulous this guy is on numbers and research so it will be interesting.
I wish MFP had better burn and food counts. I wish someone would go through it all and triple check everything and get a more sophisticated exercise burn calculator!
Come on MFP!!!!! Stop making it so difficult!0 -
Look to the human body for making it so difficult to calculate - or his holiness, our god; the FSM, who created us all.Come on MFP!!!!! Stop making it so difficult!
And yes, I hope the person suggesting you get a HRM is trolling
. 0 -
Come on MFP!!!!! Stop making it so difficult!
I don't get why people think it is so difficult.
Eat less that you need: you lose weight; Eat more than you need: you gain weight.
The style of training you do and the macronutrient composition of your diet helps determine what proportion of that weight is muscle and what proportion is fat (along with age, gender, training experience and genetics).
That's pretty much it.
(Oh, add in time, patience and consistency of course. But those things go without saying...)0 -
I have found that in general the exercise calories, no matter the exercise, are generally off. Strength training cals are definitely off. Elliptical calories are definitely way too high.
I've been trying to log less minutes doing each exercise in order to compensate for the elliptical, and log more minutes in strength training to compensate for the too few calories on that end. It has pretty much evened out as I'm on a 1 lb a week loss track, and I've been going down .85 lb per week.0 -
I have found that in general the exercise calories, no matter the exercise, are generally off. Strength training cals are definitely off. Elliptical calories are definitely way too high.
I've been trying to log less minutes doing each exercise in order to compensate for the elliptical, and log more minutes in strength training to compensate for the too few calories on that end. It has pretty much evened out as I'm on a 1 lb a week loss track, and I've been going down .85 lb per week.
That may shed some light on why I was gaining so well while doing steady-start cardio.
Let me explain...
During the growing season (not now), I do a lot of lawn mowing. It's low to moderate intensity steady-state cardio with some interval-like peaks and troughs depending on the terrain. MFP gives me a 600+ cal burn number for 2 hours, and I eat it all back, despite feeling like I want to hurl. Now we know the stronglifts I've been doing for about 5 weeks is under-estimated. If the mowing is over-inflated, it'd be the opposite effect. Caveat: I wasn't doing stronglifts last growing season. Just lower intensity weight training.
Btw, I'm up 1 to 1.5 lbs since posting this thread and making the adjustments. We'll see how it goes over the next week.0
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