True? The first 5 lbs gained disappears instantly on a cut?
Fithealthyforlife
Posts: 866 Member
I've heard that when you start cutting, the first 5 lbs or so gained during a bulk disappears almost overnight because it's water, glycogen, bloat from food, etc. Is this true? It took several months to gain this 5 lbs.
I've gained 8 lbs in total since the summer. That means that only 3 or so of those pounds are real weight. And 1 lb might be fat. That means only 2 lbs of muscle?! Depressing. I feel like I look about the same after gaining the 8 lbs as I did before it.
Edit: I am NOT thinking of cutting anytime soon!
Just curious.
I've gained 8 lbs in total since the summer. That means that only 3 or so of those pounds are real weight. And 1 lb might be fat. That means only 2 lbs of muscle?! Depressing. I feel like I look about the same after gaining the 8 lbs as I did before it.
Edit: I am NOT thinking of cutting anytime soon!
Just curious.
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Replies
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yes, my understanding is that on average you will lose about five pounds in glycogen/water weight..it differs for everyone but most agree the average is five pounds..
building muscle is not easy brother..! So three pounds is not that bad..maybe add 50 calories a day and see if your gains pick up…?0 -
yes, my understanding is that on average you will lose about five pounds in glycogen/water weight..it differs for everyone but most agree the average is five pounds..
building muscle is not easy brother..! So three pounds is not that bad..maybe add 50 calories a day and see if your gains pick up…?
I wasn't consistent all that time, so 3 lbs in 7.5 months sounds terrible, but it ended up being half a pound of weight gain a week most weeks.
I wonder why it would take me a couple of months to gain 5 lbs of water/glycogen, though. Makes no sense.0 -
I've noticed this with my first attempt to bulk.0
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yes, my understanding is that on average you will lose about five pounds in glycogen/water weight..it differs for everyone but most agree the average is five pounds..
building muscle is not easy brother..! So three pounds is not that bad..maybe add 50 calories a day and see if your gains pick up…?
I wasn't consistent all that time, so 3 lbs in 7.5 months sounds terrible, but it ended up being half a pound of weight gain a week most weeks.
I wonder why it would take me a couple of months to gain 5 lbs of water/glycogen, though. Makes no sense.
my understanding is that it usually happens within the first two weeks of going back to eating at normal levels, or the first two weeks of a cut ..
so yes, that is strange…did you increase slowly?0 -
yes, my understanding is that on average you will lose about five pounds in glycogen/water weight..it differs for everyone but most agree the average is five pounds..
building muscle is not easy brother..! So three pounds is not that bad..maybe add 50 calories a day and see if your gains pick up…?
I wasn't consistent all that time, so 3 lbs in 7.5 months sounds terrible, but it ended up being half a pound of weight gain a week most weeks.
I wonder why it would take me a couple of months to gain 5 lbs of water/glycogen, though. Makes no sense.
my understanding is that it usually happens within the first two weeks of going back to eating at normal levels, or the first two weeks of a cut ..
so yes, that is strange…did you increase slowly?
This is my first bulk. I was not on an actual cut before bulking. Rather, I had been on a deficit without knowing...for years, and was slowly losing weight (LBM since I had no extra bodyfat).
When I started the third week of July, I increased calories at a moderate pace. I went right up to mainteance immediately, which was about a 500-600 calorie jump. I ate like that a couple of weeks, increasing a bit by eating back exercise calories. Maybe a pound or so of weight gain from that.
Then I went to a 200 calorie surplus for a few weeks. No gains.
Went up to 300 calorie surplus or so after those few weeks. Started gaining half a pound a week. It took about 10 weeks to go up the first 5 lbs.0 -
agreed, as this was my case. I ended up with a 2 lb true gain.0
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yes, my understanding is that on average you will lose about five pounds in glycogen/water weight..it differs for everyone but most agree the average is five pounds..
building muscle is not easy brother..! So three pounds is not that bad..maybe add 50 calories a day and see if your gains pick up…?
I wasn't consistent all that time, so 3 lbs in 7.5 months sounds terrible, but it ended up being half a pound of weight gain a week most weeks.
I wonder why it would take me a couple of months to gain 5 lbs of water/glycogen, though. Makes no sense.
my understanding is that it usually happens within the first two weeks of going back to eating at normal levels, or the first two weeks of a cut ..
so yes, that is strange…did you increase slowly?
This is my first bulk. I was not on an actual cut before bulking. Rather, I had been on a deficit without knowing...for years, and was slowly losing weight (LBM since I had no extra bodyfat).
When I started the third week of July, I increased calories at a moderate pace. I went right up to mainteance immediately, which was about a 500-600 calorie jump. I ate like that a couple of weeks, increasing a bit by eating back exercise calories. Maybe a pound or so of weight gain from that.
Then I went to a 200 calorie surplus for a few weeks. No gains.
Went up to 300 calorie surplus or so after those few weeks. Started gaining half a pound a week. It took about 10 weeks to go up the first 5 lbs.
hmmm, were you in a huge deficit? Like almost underrating? Could have damaged your metabolism so that it took you longer then you thought to get to maintenance and then to surplus, which would explain the slow gain …I am not really sure….0 -
yes, my understanding is that on average you will lose about five pounds in glycogen/water weight..it differs for everyone but most agree the average is five pounds..
building muscle is not easy brother..! So three pounds is not that bad..maybe add 50 calories a day and see if your gains pick up…?
I wasn't consistent all that time, so 3 lbs in 7.5 months sounds terrible, but it ended up being half a pound of weight gain a week most weeks.
I wonder why it would take me a couple of months to gain 5 lbs of water/glycogen, though. Makes no sense.
my understanding is that it usually happens within the first two weeks of going back to eating at normal levels, or the first two weeks of a cut ..
so yes, that is strange…did you increase slowly?
This is my first bulk. I was not on an actual cut before bulking. Rather, I had been on a deficit without knowing...for years, and was slowly losing weight (LBM since I had no extra bodyfat).
When I started the third week of July, I increased calories at a moderate pace. I went right up to mainteance immediately, which was about a 500-600 calorie jump. I ate like that a couple of weeks, increasing a bit by eating back exercise calories. Maybe a pound or so of weight gain from that.
Then I went to a 200 calorie surplus for a few weeks. No gains.
Went up to 300 calorie surplus or so after those few weeks. Started gaining half a pound a week. It took about 10 weeks to go up the first 5 lbs.
hmmm, were you in a huge deficit? Like almost underrating? Could have damaged your metabolism so that it took you longer then you thought to get to maintenance and then to surplus, which would explain the slow gain …I am not really sure….
Yeah, I was in at least a 500-cal deficit for several years, on average. But you'd think in that case, weight gain would happen *faster* after resuming normal intake...not slower.
Was I supposed to see an almost overnight 3-5 lbs gain (from water/glycogen) when starting? Never saw that.0 -
Keep in mind, I *only* weighed/weigh myself on empty first thing in the morning after a night of fasting. Not sure if that makes a difference, but wanted to put it out there.
So, the first 5 lbs took about 10 weeks. Could that really be water/glycogen?0 -
Keep in mind, I *only* weighed/weigh myself on empty first thing in the morning after a night of fasting. Not sure if that makes a difference, but wanted to put it out there.
So, the first 5 lbs took about 10 weeks. Could that really be water/glycogen?
honestly, I do not have an answer for that ..
For me, when I come out of a cut and increase to maintenance I always put on about three pounds right away ..same thing when I first cut down…like this most recent time ..I went from 178 to 175 and in past two weeks have dropped another pound to about 174…first three was water weight/glycogen (I assume) next pound was mainly fat (i hope) LOL0 -
Keep in mind, I *only* weighed/weigh myself on empty first thing in the morning after a night of fasting. Not sure if that makes a difference, but wanted to put it out there.
So, the first 5 lbs took about 10 weeks. Could that really be water/glycogen?
honestly, I do not have an answer for that ..
For me, when I come out of a cut and increase to maintenance I always put on about three pounds right away ..same thing when I first cut down…like this most recent time ..I went from 178 to 175 and in past two weeks have dropped another pound to about 174…first three was water weight/glycogen (I assume) next pound was mainly fat (i hope) LOL
Ok, well I'm going to assume worst-case scenario...that out of 8-9 lbs gained so far, only 3-4 lbs is real weight (and only 2-3 is actual muscle). So what that means is, I will need to factor in and gain an extra 5-10 lbs to meet my actual goal. (Because 5 lbs will likely disappear right away on a cut, and another 5 would disappear over the duration of the cut.)
I have a tiny bit more muscle definition now after 8-9 lbs,and a tiny bit more fat in some areas too, but that's about it. I was also starting out at the lower side of healthy BMI (because I was on that stupid deficit so long without realizing it and lost 15-20 lbs of LBM over 10 years).
For some reason I don't show weight gain easily when I do gain. And I'm not even tall...just average height. Not large-framed either. But when I was 10-12 lbs heavier, I looked about the same as I do now. I doubt even a 20-lb bulking change will show much of a difference in terms of muscularity/definition.
On the plus side, still in my late 20s, so plenty of time left to gain muscle.0 -
I've done 2 bulk/cut cycles and this was true for me both times. The 5 lbs. comes and goes within the first 2 weeks for me.0
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I've done 2 bulk/cut cycles and this was true for me both times. The 5 lbs. comes and goes within the first 2 weeks for me.
I looked back at my log. It took 3-4 weeks of eating at maintenance and ramping up to a 300-cal surplus to gain the first 4 lbs.
I'm still going to assume the first 5 lbs is not real weight. I don't look much different (imho) after 8-9 lbs...maybe the water/glycogen thing explains it.0 -
I've also heard that gaining back lost weight is comparatively easy versus gaining more beyond your previous normal weight. I still have at least 10 lbs to go to get back to where I was ten years ago. Theoretically this 10 lbs (and the previous 8-9) should have been piling on fast, like 1-2 lbs a week, no? It's not. I have to keep increasing calories every few lbs it seems.
Since starting I've increased my baseline daily intake by about 1000 calories (in 8 months). This does not even count exercise calories which I also eat back. I don't think increasing at this speed is too slow...does anyone think it's too conservative? I've gone from about 2100 to 3150 baseline...which represents a 500 cal surplus. And 3450 on lifting days now.0 -
Just stick with it and you will find out alot about your body. Everyone is different. I can gain or lose 5lbs in 1 day no joke. Find the foods and training and frquency that is giving you the best results. Also remember that you can lose some water weight or just weight and look bigger. I know it sounds crazy, but it is true. A ripped physique looks bigger than a puffy and bloated physique. I wish you the best. the mirror can tell you more than a scale will any day of the week.0
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I've also heard that gaining back lost weight is comparatively easy versus gaining more beyond your previous normal weight. I still have at least 10 lbs to go to get back to where I was ten years ago. Theoretically this 10 lbs (and the previous 8-9) should have been piling on fast, like 1-2 lbs a week, no? It's not. I have to keep increasing calories every few lbs it seems.
Since starting I've increased my baseline daily intake by about 1000 calories (in 8 months). This does not even count exercise calories which I also eat back. I don't think increasing at this speed is too slow...does anyone think it's too conservative? I've gone from about 2100 to 3150 baseline...which represents a 500 cal surplus. And 3450 on lifting days now.
3,400 cals is a quite a bit. You should be gaining on that unless you weigh 200+ pounds or have really high exercise calorie burn.0 -
I've also heard that gaining back lost weight is comparatively easy versus gaining more beyond your previous normal weight. I still have at least 10 lbs to go to get back to where I was ten years ago. Theoretically this 10 lbs (and the previous 8-9) should have been piling on fast, like 1-2 lbs a week, no? It's not. I have to keep increasing calories every few lbs it seems.
Since starting I've increased my baseline daily intake by about 1000 calories (in 8 months). This does not even count exercise calories which I also eat back. I don't think increasing at this speed is too slow...does anyone think it's too conservative? I've gone from about 2100 to 3150 baseline...which represents a 500 cal surplus. And 3450 on lifting days now.
3,400 cals is a quite a bit. You should be gaining on that unless you weigh 200+ pounds or have really high exercise calorie burn.
That's what I thought, too. But I'm 5'9 and currently 140-141. Trying to get back to the 150-155 I was in high school (ironically ate nowhere near what I do now back then, either).
I'm currently eating 3450 on exercise days, and 3050 on non-exercise days. Been doing that since 3/5/14. (I added another 100 cal to workout days on 3/2/14 previously).
I've just been fluctuating between 140 and 141 since 3/10/14. Before that, eating 200 calories less, I fluctuated between 138 and 139.5 for a month.
I'm thinking of adding yet another 100 cal on lifting days. But I also don't want to keep having to add 100 calories every 2 pounds! That would get ridiculous.
I'm thinking of increasing again.0 -
I've also heard that gaining back lost weight is comparatively easy versus gaining more beyond your previous normal weight. I still have at least 10 lbs to go to get back to where I was ten years ago. Theoretically this 10 lbs (and the previous 8-9) should have been piling on fast, like 1-2 lbs a week, no? It's not. I have to keep increasing calories every few lbs it seems.
Since starting I've increased my baseline daily intake by about 1000 calories (in 8 months). This does not even count exercise calories which I also eat back. I don't think increasing at this speed is too slow...does anyone think it's too conservative? I've gone from about 2100 to 3150 baseline...which represents a 500 cal surplus. And 3450 on lifting days now.
3,400 cals is a quite a bit. You should be gaining on that unless you weigh 200+ pounds or have really high exercise calorie burn.
for a decent/big guy moving a lot of weight- that could be quiet normal.
I'm a girl and I eat upwards of 3000- I know some women who bulk on 3000+ and then eat back on top of that (but that is a little more rare).
If you aren't gaining- you aren't eating enough.
But yes- the first big of weight you gain- and then consequently lose is going to be typically that water weight- some people have a harder time with it- but 3 lbs in 7 months seems really low- I would not have been waiting that long for the gainz.
Ultimately if you aren't getting the results- you need to change- eat more or eat less- that's the only way this works- there is no FIXED number- it's a floating RANGE/average. Everyone is different- i'ts a range you are targeting and an average surplus or deficit over the time frame. So if it's not working for you- tweak it untill it does.0 -
I've also heard that gaining back lost weight is comparatively easy versus gaining more beyond your previous normal weight. I still have at least 10 lbs to go to get back to where I was ten years ago. Theoretically this 10 lbs (and the previous 8-9) should have been piling on fast, like 1-2 lbs a week, no? It's not. I have to keep increasing calories every few lbs it seems.
Since starting I've increased my baseline daily intake by about 1000 calories (in 8 months). This does not even count exercise calories which I also eat back. I don't think increasing at this speed is too slow...does anyone think it's too conservative? I've gone from about 2100 to 3150 baseline...which represents a 500 cal surplus. And 3450 on lifting days now.
3,400 cals is a quite a bit. You should be gaining on that unless you weigh 200+ pounds or have really high exercise calorie burn.
for a decent/big guy moving a lot of weight- that could be quiet normal.
I'm a girl and I eat upwards of 3000- I know some women who bulk on 3000+ and then eat back on top of that (but that is a little more rare).
If you aren't gaining- you aren't eating enough.
But yes- the first big of weight you gain- and then consequently lose is going to be typically that water weight- some people have a harder time with it- but 3 lbs in 7 months seems really low- I would not have been waiting that long for the gainz.
Ultimately if you aren't getting the results- you need to change- eat more or eat less- that's the only way this works- there is no FIXED number- it's a floating RANGE/average. Everyone is different- i'ts a range you are targeting and an average surplus or deficit over the time frame. So if it's not working for you- tweak it untill it does.
Jo,
Thanks. Your advice is always welcome.
I'm not a big guy at all...pretty average at 5'9. And weigh less than I want to/did in the past.
So you think that with what I said in the previous post, increasing again is the way to go?
And to clarify it wasn't as bad as it sounds (8 lbs total gain/5 real lbs in 7 months). There was at least a 2 month period of no bulking in there, a period where I got sick and lost 3 lbs that I had to gain back , etc.
But maybe I went about it wrong from the start. The advice was to increase cals until I started to gain at the desired rate. But in hindsight all I did was to increase cals and gain 5 lbs of water and glycogen over the first 7 weeks. I thought I was gaining muscle...apparently not.
So increase by another hundred at least some days?0 -
If you've met your goal for the day to bulk and are still hungry, do you eat more or stop?
I feel like the only reason that 3000 net calories a day is filling is because I've been cramming a lot of that (half to 2/3) into the last 4-5 hours of the day.
If I can stop doing that I think it will be easy to up my net calories by another hundred or so...which apparently I need to do. I'm right between lean bulk and regular bulk territory at the moment, apparently! I keep fluctuating in weight and it must be from glycogen fluctuations. I guess I was never in a real bulk to begin with, due to chronic underestimation of exercise calories. I've suspected this for teh past month when I wrote a whole thread on it and got lots of great replies. Now that I know for sure I'm still not eating enough, I'm going to fix this and up my eat back after lifting by yet another hundred (to make 500).
I have had crazy 2-3 lb fluctuations during this entire bulk. Now I know why. I've been riding the border between lean and regular bulking this whole time!
Daily surplus will stay at 500 for the time being.0 -
When I started my first bulk, it took about a month for the first 3-4 lbs.
I just started my first cut a week ago, and *BOOM*, 4 lbs gone.0 -
When I started my first bulk, it took about a month for the first 3-4 lbs.
I just started my first cut a week ago, and *BOOM*, 4 lbs gone.
Sounds about right!
I have had crazy 2-3 lb fluctuations this whole time. Now I know why! I've been riding the border beween full glycogen supply and partially full supply apparently (in other words lean bulk vs real bulk).
This also explains the strange swings in hunger I've experienced over and over the past few months. I have days where I don't feel hungry at all and have to eat never feeling hunger, and then days where I keep eating and still feel hungry. It's got to be because of this fluctuation in glycogen.
I feel like 100-300 more calories and I will be good to go!0 -
Jo,
Thanks. Your advice is always welcome.
I'm not a big guy at all...pretty average at 5'9. And weigh less than I want to/did in the past.
So you think that with what I said in the previous post, increasing again is the way to go?
And to clarify it wasn't as bad as it sounds (8 lbs total gain/5 real lbs in 7 months). There was at least a 2 month period of no bulking in there, a period where I got sick and lost 3 lbs that I had to gain back , etc.
But maybe I went about it wrong from the start. The advice was to increase cals until I started to gain at the desired rate. But in hindsight all I did was to increase cals and gain 5 lbs of water and glycogen over the first 7 weeks. I thought I was gaining muscle...apparently not.
So increase by another hundred at least some days?
so youre an inch taller than me- over 3000 sounds pretty normal- I'm hitting high 2000's and I'm an inch shorter and a woman- so I would expect you to eat more.
I am not sure "increase till I see gain" is a good enough way to put it.
Because that's very vague. I mean "daily" or "weekly" or how often do you increase- for me- I waited and saw gain after 3 weeks- I probably should have had a more generous bulk to start -only because as waldo points out- most people tend to cut themselves short for what they need on a bulk esp first starting. The body uses that and spits some out the "OMG I HAVE MORE ENERGY AND FUEL LET ME BURN IT OFF BY BOUNCING IN MY CHAIR!
It's the same as deficit- you have a target goal for a reason. try to stick with it- some days will be under- some will be over- but as long as the trend line is UP it doesn't matter.If you've met your goal for the day to bulk and are still hungry, do you eat more or stop?
most people flux 2-5 lbs within a day anyway- so that could just be normal weigh change- it sounds an awful lot like a faux bulk where you weren't really eating enough to put on appreciable mass. More like high end of maintenance.I have had crazy 2-3 lb fluctuations during this entire bulk. Now I know why. I've been riding the border between lean and regular bulking this whole time!
Might be time to go to the drawing board- spend a month or so figuring out what maintenance was and then start bulking for real.0 -
Hey Jo,
I accidently maintained at 138-139.5 lbs last month for about 4-6 weeks at 2960 calories on non-workout days and 3160 or so on workout days. I would say that's the high end of my real maintenance range, give-or-take.
Knowing what I now know, I'd say that the most recent increases over the past few weeks are putting me solidly into lean bulk territory now (finally). But it's still not quite enough.
And this whole time I was wondering why I still looked the same, give-or-take, after gaining 8 lbs (it's because 5 lbs was water/glycogen!) And why I only gained about a pound of fat in 7 months of on and off "bulking" (b/c it wasn't enough food). Now I know!
But you know something...it was a lot easier to increase calories slowly over time! And I have my maintenance range pretty figured out. So there is a positive side. And hopefully I'm near the end of needing to add 100-200 calories for every 2-3 lbs of gain!0 -
You know enough- I'd just start eating 3600 and go for it.
Work you way up to it if you have to- but you seem to have a solid for what maintenance is- just go for it!
for allll the gainzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz0 -
All the signs are saying eat more and bloody enjoy it. I'm sure you wouldn't go into dirty bulk territory even if you tried!
Go for it Al! Eat for all of us heehee!
You'll have no problem with the cut part of things anyway, and you'll look back and wish you'd gone for it more!0 -
What do your macros look like??0
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Seems consistent with my experience. Of my almost-20 pounds gained over 3-4 months (from memory, but close), I lost 5 pounds in the first 10 days.
(This is also why people think detoxes/cleanses/carb-restricted diets are so "effective" because they see such quick loss...but then can't understand why they weren't able to sustain the (unsustainable) loss when they resume normal eating.)0 -
I ALWAYS lose 5 pounds in the first few days of a "diet."
My guess is (and this is strictly personal experience) that if you didn't gain that weight in the first couple of weeks, your body was already holding on to the "water weight." Meaning that if you would have started a cut at the point you started bulking, you would have lost 5 pounds - if you lose it, it's not part of the "new" mass. But your strategy sounds good either way.0 -
This thread is depressing. I'm on week 7 of my first bulk and I've gained 3-4 lbs. So it's ALL water weight? :grumble:0
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