Weight lifting damages the heart, cardiologist said

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  • jwdieter
    jwdieter Posts: 2,582 Member
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    Good post, OP. Interesting read.
  • BigGuy47
    BigGuy47 Posts: 1,768 Member
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    "Both research findings and clinical experience indicate that resistance exercise is relatively safe.
    Got it.
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,268 Member
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    eh time for a 3rd opinion...

    you know what they call a cardiologist who graduated last in his class a cardiologist...
  • likitisplit
    likitisplit Posts: 9,420 Member
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    I got an email from Medhi (Stronglifts) that spoke to the pressure on the heart when you take a deep breath, hold it through the bottom of the move and then slowly release it on the way out.

    He still recommends the practice as he argues that the heart builds endurance over time. I can see that this might cause problems in people with a condition.
  • Mr_Knight
    Mr_Knight Posts: 9,532 Member
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    ...weight lifting may damage the heart, not just MY heart, but ANY heart, and that should be avoided.

    An old joke...

    Q: What do Soviet olympic weightlifters from the 60s and 70s all have in common?
    A: They're all dead.
  • QueenBishOTUniverse
    QueenBishOTUniverse Posts: 14,121 Member
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    I only had time to speed read, but this didn't seem all that surprising. I can tell just from my body's response that my BP spikes significantly during the lift, but given that my BP was 102/76 when it was measured a little over a month ago, I should be ok. I could see where years of EXTREME stress on the heart from lifting at an Olympic level most of your life might cause an issue, and I think certainly if you have other risk factors you will need to monitor more closely, but it seems like for the average healthy adult with normal BP etc. this is mostly a non-issue.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    Hmmm... Interesting. They are referring to physiological responses to lifting, but it seems a bit dramatized. It's like saying that if you squat, since your muscles are contracted, you'll get cramps because your blood vessels are also going to contract. It doesn't work that way though. They are talking about how the BP increases, but even cardiovascular exercises do this, and even more. It's just a temporary thing that comes with any exercise that accelerates your heart rate. When you are going to have your BP measured your physician suggests that you do so at a moment that you are relaxed, and have not performed any sort of exercise prior to this, they don't suggest that you DON'T exercise at all, because everyone is aware that it increases your heart rate, but it doesn't mean that it's bad for you as long as you do so in a safe way (correct form, etc.).

    I'm sure many of the people who lift will beg to differ.

    IDK LOL.

    During cardiovascular exercise, systolic BP can increase substantially, but Diastolic BP usually lowers significantly. The result is that Mean Arterial Pressure MAP increases only modestly, if at all. During heavy lifting, both SBP and DBP can increase a lot, resulting in a substantial increase in MAP. In addition, the surge in HR following the lift as the body redistributes blood and normalizes pressures substantially increases the workload on the heart muscle.

    The responses to heavy lifting and cardio are substantially different, which is why you can't use the response to one to explain or dismiss the significance of the response to the other.

    As the guidelines clearly state, in younger individuals and those without a history of heart disease, these reactions can be tolerated without any problem. However those in the higher risk category are ....well... At higher risk. "Higher risk" does NOT mean " can never,ever, think of doing it". It means that caution must be exercised and increases in weight/intensity need to be gradual.

    Rather than being "dramatized" the information presented provides a very clear description of the physiologic responses. I understand that someone without a background in the subject might find it a bit unwieldy, but that doesn't make it any less accurate.

    FWIW, the description also explains, as I have done on many occasions, why HRMs are (even more) useless for tracking calories during strength training and why the elevated heart rate during heavy lifting is NOT an indicator of concurrent aerobic training.

    But I'm still puzzled why two cardiologists would either ignore or be so ignorant of their own professional standards. I could understand why they would want to be conservative and cautious following the OPs ablation, but to apply that to the general population is really misguided.
  • coccodrillo72
    coccodrillo72 Posts: 94 Member
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    Hmmm... Interesting. They are referring to physiological responses to lifting, but it seems a bit dramatized. It's like saying that if you squat, since your muscles are contracted, you'll get cramps because your blood vessels are also going to contract. It doesn't work that way though. They are talking about how the BP increases, but even cardiovascular exercises do this, and even more. It's just a temporary thing that comes with any exercise that accelerates your heart rate. [...]

    During cardiovascular exercise, systolic BP can increase substantially, but Diastolic BP usually lowers significantly. The result is that Mean Arterial Pressure MAP increases only modestly, if at all. During heavy lifting, both SBP and DBP can increase a lot, resulting in a substantial increase in MAP. In addition, the surge in HR following the lift as the body redistributes blood and normalizes pressures substantially increases the workload on the heart muscle.

    The responses to heavy lifting and cardio are substantially different, which is why you can't use the response to one to explain or dismiss the significance of the response to the other. [...]

    Exactly. To further clarify (I hope):

    1) Dynamic aerobic exercise imposes primarily a volume load on the cardiovascular system, including the heart. Modest increase in mean pressure.

    2) Isometric exercise (limbs not moving, RT has an isometric component) cause a disproportionate rise in SBP, DBP, mean BP (blood pressure), and peripheral vascular resistance.These pressures continue to rise throughout the duration of the exercise. Thus, a significant pressure load is imposed on the cardiovascular system.

    The impact of holding your breath and high levels of muscle tension to lift can result in somewhat dramatic changes to the physiological responses to RT.

    At the release of the “strain,” venous return is dramatically increased. The result is a rise in BP, potentially quite dramatic, that may require minutes to return to baseline. During heavy resistance exercise and especially if accompanied by the Valsalva maneuver (holding your breath), symptoms of lightheadedness or dizziness may occur. With relaxation, individuals may experience headache while pressure remains elevated. In patients with heart disease, symptoms of myocardial ischemia may ensue as a result of elevated BP and increased myocardial work.

    3) When heavy dynamic-resistance exercise (strength exercise) such as lifting weights is performed, the cardiovascular responses are a combination of the responses that occur during both dynamic-aerobic exercise and isometric exercise, reflecting a combined volume and pressure load.

    According to the AHA these loads are accetable in a healthy person, but they advise against the Valsalva maneuver (holding your breath) while lifting - even in healty subjects - and never recommend high intensity RT (80% to 100% of 1-RM performed to exhaustion - yep, I'm thinking of my stronglifts 5x5 routine) - again, even in healty subjects - due to the dramatic increase of the pressure load imposed on the cardiovascular system.

    Edited for typos
  • coccodrillo72
    coccodrillo72 Posts: 94 Member
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    Correct me if I'm wrong but this evidence suggests that resistance training spikes blood pressure.

    Is there actually any evidence to suggest that it is implicated in causing damage to heart leading to clinical illness?

    I found little data about this. Generally RT is considered safe by the AHA (but they advise against holding your breath while lifting and never recommend high intensity RT, as I wrote above).

    From the statement: "Studies of cardiac morphology and function have consistently shown that the alterations associated with RT are physiological, although certain cardiac effects exist on a continuum between normal and pathological."

    "Intensive RT characteristically increases left ventricular (LV) wall thickness and mass, with little or no change in LV diameter. Although statistically significant, the increase in wall thickness is modest, and values are generally in the upper range of untrained, normal subjects."

    "In contrast to the increase in central arterial compliance associated with aerobic training, the effects of RT on this parameter have varied. Central arterial compliance was unaltered by whole-body RT in a prospective study of young healthy men. In contrast, an increase in arterial stiffness with RT has been demonstrated in the aorta and carotid arteries in association with an augmented central pulse pressure. In these studies, peripheral SBP was mildly increased but in the normal range, and DBP and mean BP were normal. Although it has been suggested that increased stiffness of large arteries may be an adaptation to obviate excessive expansion during severe isometric activity, the clinical implications of this finding are currently unclear. In summary, the influence of RT on both peripheral and central arterial compliance remains inconsistent and controversial at this time."
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
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    Mark Rippetoe has some interesting things to say about some of this stuff

    my thoughts on the idea that lifting heavy things damages the heart is how we managed to survive the palaeolithic era? and how did the neanderthals survive 300,000+ years.... they wouldn't have evolved such big muscles or an anatomy/morphology that seems uncannily well suited for deadlifting if lifting heavy things hadn't been essential to their survival
  • Harrisonsauntie2005
    Harrisonsauntie2005 Posts: 215 Member
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    wonder how the hearts of the group that sat on their *kitten* thier whole life looked like

    BOOM! I like it. I did 80% of my 1 RM and felt more like my *kitten* was going to fall of than I was going to have heart failure

    OP- Hope you get well soon :):flowerforyou:
  • coccodrillo72
    coccodrillo72 Posts: 94 Member
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    I got an email from Medhi (Stronglifts) that spoke to the pressure on the heart when you take a deep breath, hold it through the bottom of the move and then slowly release it on the way out.

    He still recommends the practice as he argues that the heart builds endurance over time. I can see that this might cause problems in people with a condition.

    I got a similar email, if I recall correctly, but I wonder if he bases this theory (that the "the heart builds endurance over time") on any data or if it's only his opinion. I surely did not find anything about that on any study I read.
  • shivaslives
    shivaslives Posts: 279 Member
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    Bad analogy since prehistoric man generally didn't live long enough to die from heart disease. All they had to do for the species to survive is to live long enough to reproduce. That being said, I'm sure they didn't do enough of the strenuous lifting referenced in the articles to impact their CV health.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
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    I got an email from Medhi (Stronglifts) that spoke to the pressure on the heart when you take a deep breath, hold it through the bottom of the move and then slowly release it on the way out.

    He still recommends the practice as he argues that the heart builds endurance over time. I can see that this might cause problems in people with a condition.

    I got a similar email, if I recall correctly, but I wonder if he bases this theory (that the "the heart builds endurance over time") on any data or if it's only his opinion. I surely did not find anything about that on any study I read.

    Biology 101: the heart gets stronger as a result of increased exercise. Cardiac output increases (i.e. more blood is pumped with each beat) and the heart muscle itself gets stronger, same as any other muscle does when it's used more. This is why athletes tend to have lower resting heart rates than sedentary people. To what extent the cardiovascular system adapts to the blood pressure spike from lifting something heavy one time, but middle palaeolithic lifestyles seem to have involved a necessity to lift heavy things a lot, so I'd be surprised if the cardiovascular system is totally unable to adapt to lifting heavy things at all.
  • shivaslives
    shivaslives Posts: 279 Member
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    Good information with a clear message - go see a professional to learn how to strength train appropriately and gain the maximum benefit for both muscular strength and cardiovascular health.
    <=>
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
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    Bad analogy since prehistoric man generally didn't live long enough to die from heart disease. All they had to do for the species to survive is to live long enough to reproduce. That being said, I'm sure they didn't do enough of the strenuous lifting referenced in the articles to impact their CV health.

    except the issue is surviving the immediate consequences of the blood pressure spike from heavy lifting, i.e. not dropping dead as the result of heart failure from lifting something heavy, which would have resulted in the person not leaving any of their genes in the next generation.

    also, prehistoric people did live into old age. There are skeletons of elderly people that are almost 2 million years old (Dmanisi, Georgia, if you want a reference to check this fact up).

    ETA: the neanderthal anatomy has several features that would make them extremely good at deadlifting... why would they have evolved that way if picking heavy stuff off the ground wasn't vital for their survival?
  • _Zardoz_
    _Zardoz_ Posts: 3,987 Member
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    I must admit I would be rethinking my choice of cardiologist
  • goredguar
    goredguar Posts: 63 Member
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    Final year Biomedical scientist here - chose modules focusing on muscle and cardiovascular/respiratory system this year so hopefully I can put in some helpful input :)

    The reason why weightlifting is contraindicated in people with, say heart failure, is because of the changes in blood pressure associated with that type of exercise:

    First, an Equation:
    Your mean arterial blood pressure = cardiac output (volume of blood pumped by the heart in one minute) x total peripheral resistance (determined by how much your blood vessels are constricted or dilated)
    Ie MABP = CO x TPR

    Dynamic (eg running) exercise raises CO as the muscle needs more oxygen. Blood pressure does not increase too much, as the blood vessels dilate (become wider) which lowers resistance to blood flow
    Ie MABP (similar) = CO (increases) x TPR (decreases)

    However, when you do isometric (static) exercise such as weightlifting, your muscles remain contracted throughout the exercise - the contracted muscle squeezes the blood vessels and prevents them from dilating much at all, so TPR does not go down.
    So blood pressure increases dramatically.

    In addition, when weightlifting, if you're straining, (a bit like when you go to the toilet), as if you're holding your breath but breathing out kinda, it has an additional effect on raising blood pressure (google Valsava manoeuvre if you want to learn more about how this works)

    Conclusion:
    So, isometric exercise like weightlifting raises blood pressure quite a lot. If you have a condition such as heart failure, damage to the heart, (or already have hypertension), where your heart is more 'fragile' so to speak, the increase in blood pressure can put you at risk of suffering a heart attack.
    For normal, healthy individuals, the increase in blood pressure associated with weightlifting isn't too much of a concern. (Benefits outweigh risks).

    Hope some of this info helps!

    EDIT: forgot to mention (in case it's not clear) the increase in blood pressure isn't permanent, it's just whilst you're doing the exercise
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
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    Conclusion:
    So, isometric exercise like weightlifting raises blood pressure quite a lot. If you have a condition such as heart failure, damage to the heart, (or already have hypertension), where your heart is more 'fragile' so to speak, the increase in blood pressure can put you at risk of suffering a heart attack.
    For normal, healthy individuals, the increase in blood pressure associated with weightlifting isn't too much of a concern. (Benefits outweigh risks).

    EDIT: forgot to mention (in case it's not clear) the increase in blood pressure isn't permanent, it's just whilst you're doing the exercise

    Thank you for posting this.
  • Azdak
    Azdak Posts: 8,281 Member
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    I got an email from Medhi (Stronglifts) that spoke to the pressure on the heart when you take a deep breath, hold it through the bottom of the move and then slowly release it on the way out.

    He still recommends the practice as he argues that the heart builds endurance over time. I can see that this might cause problems in people with a condition.

    I got a similar email, if I recall correctly, but I wonder if he bases this theory (that the "the heart builds endurance over time") on any data or if it's only his opinion. I surely did not find anything about that on any study I read.

    Biology 101: the heart gets stronger as a result of increased exercise. Cardiac output increases (i.e. more blood is pumped with each beat) and the heart muscle itself gets stronger, same as any other muscle does when it's used more. This is why athletes tend to have lower resting heart rates than sedentary people. To what extent the cardiovascular system adapts to the blood pressure spike from lifting something heavy one time, but middle palaeolithic lifestyles seem to have involved a necessity to lift heavy things a lot, so I'd be surprised if the cardiovascular system is totally unable to adapt to lifting heavy things at all.

    I don't about Biology 101, but Exercise Physiology 101 demonstrates the nature of cardiac muscle hypertrophy is fundamentally different when it occurs from endurance cardio, heavy resistance training, or pathology. A thicker cardiac muscle is not necessarily "strong" or "healthy". And while cardiac muscle shares some characteristics of skeletal muscle and smooth muscle, it is not "the same as any other muscle" and it is incorrect to attribute the same training effects from lifting or running to cardiac muscle.

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