3500 rule?

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whisperfitandhealthy
whisperfitandhealthy Posts: 66
in Food and Nutrition
I am a bit confused. I hear that 3500 is a pound, but then others say you have to eat 3500 above maintenance to put on a pound.

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  • Showcase_Brodown
    Showcase_Brodown Posts: 919 Member
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    Usually it's considered that a pound of FAT provides 3500 kcal.

    So, in theory, if you have racked up 3500 kcal above maintenance over a time period, you've possibly gained a pound of fat. If you are 3500 under maintenance, hopefully you've lost a pound of fat.

    But it is not perfect, because if you've lost muscle as well, which is quite possible, there goes the easy 3500 figure. I'm not sure how that would be figured. Maybe someone knows.

    And then there is always water weight, digestive contents, and other little confounders that throw your weight back and forth on the day-to-day.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
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    maintenance = all the calories you burn in a day

    let's use a hypothetical example

    Jackie burns 2000 calories in one day, keeping all her cells alive and her organs functioning, plus the energy she uses pottering around the house and walking to the shops n stuff............. for her to stay the same weight, she has to eat 2000 calories. If she eats this, then her weight will be stable. If she eats 1750 calories a day, she will slowly lose weight. If she eats 2250 calories a day, she'll slowly gain weight.

    If she wants to gain 1lb in a single day, she has to eat 5500 calories. That is 2000 calorie burned keeping her body functioning and moving around............ plus 3500 calories that she doesn't burn, which her body stores as fat.

    So yes to actually *gain* a pound in weight you have to eat 3500 calories over and above your TDEE. Your body needs a lot of calories just for staying alive and moving around. These are burned off. You can only gain weight if you eat *more than* what your body's burning in a day.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
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    Usually it's considered that a pound of FAT provides 3500 kcal.

    So, in theory, if you have racked up 3500 kcal above maintenance over a time period, you've possibly gained a pound of fat. If you are 3500 under maintenance, hopefully you've lost a pound of fat.

    But it is not perfect, because if you've lost muscle as well, which is quite possible, there goes the easy 3500 figure. I'm not sure how that would be figured. Maybe someone knows.

    And then there is always water weight, digestive contents, and other little confounders that throw your weight back and forth on the day-to-day.

    I think a pound of muscle being catabolised yeilds 600 calories of energy - I read that in Tom Venuto's book a long time ago so I might have misremembered it. (i.e. I didn't look up and check just now or anything)

    How much energy it takes to actually build a pound of muscle I think would be a lot more, because muscle building takes more energy (due to RNA molecules building up the proteins from amino acids and a bunch of other processes) - when the body catabolyses it it just gets the energy that comes from the protein molecule being metabolised. It doesn't get all the energy back from the process of building the muscle itself.

    But if your body's burning up protein in significant amounts along with the fat you'll see bigger losses of scale weight than if it's burning pure fat......... yet another reason to take fat loss slowly and not try to see big drops in scale weight.
  • whisperfitandhealthy
    whisperfitandhealthy Posts: 66
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    maintenance = all the calories you burn in a day

    let's use a hypothetical example

    Jackie burns 2000 calories in one day, keeping all her cells alive and her organs functioning, plus the energy she uses pottering around the house and walking to the shops n stuff............. for her to stay the same weight, she has to eat 2000 calories. If she eats this, then her weight will be stable. If she eats 1750 calories a day, she will slowly lose weight. If she eats 2250 calories a day, she'll slowly gain weight.

    If she wants to gain 1lb in a single day, she has to eat 5500 calories. That is 2000 calorie burned keeping her body functioning and moving around............ plus 3500 calories that she doesn't burn, which her body stores as fat.

    So yes to actually *gain* a pound in weight you have to eat 3500 calories over and above your TDEE. Your body needs a lot of calories just for staying alive and moving around. These are burned off. You can only gain weight if you eat *more than* what your body's burning in a day.

    My TDEE is 1660 calories, today I had 3200 ( ate a very late dinner, was famished. Ate to much) will I gain weight? I wasn't 3500 ABOVE my daily allowance. Did I gain a few ounces?
  • harrypotter22
    harrypotter22 Posts: 27 Member
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    3500 calories equal one pound of fat or muscle
    3500 does not equal one pound of water
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    Options
    maintenance = all the calories you burn in a day

    let's use a hypothetical example

    Jackie burns 2000 calories in one day, keeping all her cells alive and her organs functioning, plus the energy she uses pottering around the house and walking to the shops n stuff............. for her to stay the same weight, she has to eat 2000 calories. If she eats this, then her weight will be stable. If she eats 1750 calories a day, she will slowly lose weight. If she eats 2250 calories a day, she'll slowly gain weight.

    If she wants to gain 1lb in a single day, she has to eat 5500 calories. That is 2000 calorie burned keeping her body functioning and moving around............ plus 3500 calories that she doesn't burn, which her body stores as fat.

    So yes to actually *gain* a pound in weight you have to eat 3500 calories over and above your TDEE. Your body needs a lot of calories just for staying alive and moving around. These are burned off. You can only gain weight if you eat *more than* what your body's burning in a day.

    My TDEE is 1660 calories, today I had 3200 ( ate a very late dinner, was famished. Ate to much) will I gain weight? I wasn't 3500 ABOVE my daily allowance. Did I gain a few ounces?

    3200 - 1600 = 1600 calories........ bear in mind that if you've been eating in deficit for a while the surplus or some of the surplus will probably go into your glycogen stores rather than your fat stores........ it's possible you gained a few ounces of fat, but if you see a jump in scale weight then it's likely that you're seeing a gain in glycogen, and if you ate that many calories of salty food then you may also see a scale weight increase from water weight due to sodium. So some of the surplus will have become glycogen and some of it fat. If you work out, it's even possible that some or even all the surplus went towards building muscle.

    if you did gain some fat you'll lose it again just by getting back on track with eating at a deficit.

    Is 1600 really your TDEE or is it your calorie goal for fat loss? If it's your calorie goal for fat loss then your TDEE is higher than this and you would not have been than much over your maintenance. Maybe 1000 cal over maintenance if that.

    Also, if you're taking about an episode of unplanned/uncontrolled overeating, consider whether you've set your calorie target too low, as unplanned/uncontrolled overeating is often the direct result of eating too little.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    Options
    3500 calories equal one pound of fat or muscle
    3500 does not equal one pound of water

    3500 cals = one lb of fat

    muscle is different. I don't know how many calories it takes to build 1lb of muscle, but it's not going to be the same as the number of calories in a lb of fat........... catabolysed muscle gives fewer calories per lb than fat does... but building muscle takes a lot more energy than what you get when you catabolyse it, because the process of building itself is energy expensive... catabolism just gives you the energy from the protein molecule itself

    but your general comment stands.......... 1lb gain in scale weight overnight isn't 1lb of fat.
  • whisperfitandhealthy
    whisperfitandhealthy Posts: 66
    Options
    maintenance = all the calories you burn in a day

    let's use a hypothetical example

    Jackie burns 2000 calories in one day, keeping all her cells alive and her organs functioning, plus the energy she uses pottering around the house and walking to the shops n stuff............. for her to stay the same weight, she has to eat 2000 calories. If she eats this, then her weight will be stable. If she eats 1750 calories a day, she will slowly lose weight. If she eats 2250 calories a day, she'll slowly gain weight.

    If she wants to gain 1lb in a single day, she has to eat 5500 calories. That is 2000 calorie burned keeping her body functioning and moving around............ plus 3500 calories that she doesn't burn, which her body stores as fat.

    So yes to actually *gain* a pound in weight you have to eat 3500 calories over and above your TDEE. Your body needs a lot of calories just for staying alive and moving around. These are burned off. You can only gain weight if you eat *more than* what your body's burning in a day.

    My TDEE is 1660 calories, today I had 3200 ( ate a very late dinner, was famished. Ate to much) will I gain weight? I wasn't 3500 ABOVE my daily allowance. Did I gain a few ounces?

    3200 - 1600 = 1600 calories........ bear in mind that if you've been eating in deficit for a while the surplus or some of the surplus will probably go into your glycogen stores rather than your fat stores........ it's possible you gained a few ounces of fat, but if you see a jump in scale weight then it's likely that you're seeing a gain in glycogen, and if you ate that many calories of salty food then you may also see a scale weight increase from water weight due to sodium. So some of the surplus will have become glycogen and some of it fat. If you work out, it's even possible that some or even all the surplus went towards building muscle.

    if you did gain some fat you'll lose it again just by getting back on track with eating at a deficit.

    Is 1600 really your TDEE or is it your calorie goal for fat loss? If it's your calorie goal for fat loss then your TDEE is higher than this and you would not have been than much over your maintenance. Maybe 1000 cal over maintenance if that.

    Also, if you're taking about an episode of unplanned/uncontrolled overeating, consider whether you've set your calorie target too low, as unplanned/uncontrolled overeating is often the direct result of eating too little.

    1660 is for me to maintain my weight. Not to lose. And no I didn't binge or eat way to much. I actually just had a PBJ sandwich with to much of PB on it, but it filled me up. But when I added everything it equaled 3200. I was active all day though but I didn't count any of it as burning anything.
  • neandermagnon
    neandermagnon Posts: 7,436 Member
    Options
    maintenance = all the calories you burn in a day

    let's use a hypothetical example

    Jackie burns 2000 calories in one day, keeping all her cells alive and her organs functioning, plus the energy she uses pottering around the house and walking to the shops n stuff............. for her to stay the same weight, she has to eat 2000 calories. If she eats this, then her weight will be stable. If she eats 1750 calories a day, she will slowly lose weight. If she eats 2250 calories a day, she'll slowly gain weight.

    If she wants to gain 1lb in a single day, she has to eat 5500 calories. That is 2000 calorie burned keeping her body functioning and moving around............ plus 3500 calories that she doesn't burn, which her body stores as fat.

    So yes to actually *gain* a pound in weight you have to eat 3500 calories over and above your TDEE. Your body needs a lot of calories just for staying alive and moving around. These are burned off. You can only gain weight if you eat *more than* what your body's burning in a day.

    My TDEE is 1660 calories, today I had 3200 ( ate a very late dinner, was famished. Ate to much) will I gain weight? I wasn't 3500 ABOVE my daily allowance. Did I gain a few ounces?

    3200 - 1600 = 1600 calories........ bear in mind that if you've been eating in deficit for a while the surplus or some of the surplus will probably go into your glycogen stores rather than your fat stores........ it's possible you gained a few ounces of fat, but if you see a jump in scale weight then it's likely that you're seeing a gain in glycogen, and if you ate that many calories of salty food then you may also see a scale weight increase from water weight due to sodium. So some of the surplus will have become glycogen and some of it fat. If you work out, it's even possible that some or even all the surplus went towards building muscle.

    if you did gain some fat you'll lose it again just by getting back on track with eating at a deficit.

    Is 1600 really your TDEE or is it your calorie goal for fat loss? If it's your calorie goal for fat loss then your TDEE is higher than this and you would not have been than much over your maintenance. Maybe 1000 cal over maintenance if that.

    Also, if you're taking about an episode of unplanned/uncontrolled overeating, consider whether you've set your calorie target too low, as unplanned/uncontrolled overeating is often the direct result of eating too little.

    1660 is for me to maintain my weight. Not to lose. And no I didn't binge or eat way to much. I actually just had a PBJ sandwich with to much of PB on it, but it filled me up. But when I added everything it equaled 3200. I was active all day though but I didn't count any of it as burning anything.

    have you tested whether 1660 really is your maintenance calories? This is quite a low number, unless you're really petite and inactive. If you are then that's fine, but if you're active or you're not petite then I think your TDEE would be higher than this. MFP predicts that my maintenance (TDEE) calories are 1500........ reality is (based on real world observations i.e. what happens to my weight at different calorie goals) my TDEE is actually 2100 cals. 1500 is not only not maintenance, it's actually too big a calorie deficit for me. I'm at maintenance, but doing cutting and bulking cycles. For a cut cycle i eat 1700-1800 cals/day, I'm currently cutting with the intent of losing 5lb of fat, slowly. If I was obese and looking to lose more than that then 1500 probably would be a good number for that (the more fat you have the more you can lose without risking losses of lean mass). But for losing just 5lb 1500 cals is actually too low a calorie number........... yet MFP predicts this for me for maintenance. Anyway, I just wanted to explain that, because the calculators can be out by quite a lot sometimes.

    Also, your maintenance calories are not identical every day. On days when you're more active, they're higher. The TDEE numbers calculators give is an estimated average over time, on days when you're more active then you'll burn more. So take yesterday as your example... let's say 1600 calories TDEE is correct for a usual day because you're petite and sedentary, but yesterday you said you were active all day.... there is no way you burned only 1600 calories yesterday if you were active all day. Depending on what kind of activity, you could have burned over 1000 extra calories. So that would make yesterday's TDEE more like 2600 calories or even more than that. so your 3500 calories of food including your PBJ sandwich really would not be that much of a surplus. Bear in mind that this is just an estimate. What I find is that without logging/tracking I tend to eat at maintenance. If I let myself get too hungry then I'm more likely to eat at a surplus due to excessive hunger. So if your body's like that then it's probable that you were in a surplus yesterday , but it's likely to be much less of a surplus than you think. Or it's even possible that your hunger level matched your energy needs and you ate the right amount. And if you've underestimated your TDEE (i.e. your usual activity level TDEE) then that's another factor that suggests that what you ate yesterday may not have been a surplus.
  • harrypotter22
    harrypotter22 Posts: 27 Member
    Options
    3500 calories equal one pound of fat or muscle
    3500 does not equal one pound of water

    3500 cals = one lb of fat

    muscle is different. I don't know how many calories it takes to build 1lb of muscle, but it's not going to be the same as the number of calories in a lb of fat........... catabolysed muscle gives fewer calories per lb than fat does... but building muscle takes a lot more energy than what you get when you catabolyse it, because the process of building itself is energy expensive... catabolism just gives you the energy from the protein molecule itself

    but your general comment stands.......... 1lb gain in scale weight overnight isn't 1lb of fat.

    ^^
    smarty pants jk lol but yeah you sum it up kudos
  • whisperfitandhealthy
    whisperfitandhealthy Posts: 66
    Options
    maintenance = all the calories you burn in a day

    let's use a hypothetical example

    Jackie burns 2000 calories in one day, keeping all her cells alive and her organs functioning, plus the energy she uses pottering around the house and walking to the shops n stuff............. for her to stay the same weight, she has to eat 2000 calories. If she eats this, then her weight will be stable. If she eats 1750 calories a day, she will slowly lose weight. If she eats 2250 calories a day, she'll slowly gain weight.

    If she wants to gain 1lb in a single day, she has to eat 5500 calories. That is 2000 calorie burned keeping her body functioning and moving around............ plus 3500 calories that she doesn't burn, which her body stores as fat.

    So yes to actually *gain* a pound in weight you have to eat 3500 calories over and above your TDEE. Your body needs a lot of calories just for staying alive and moving around. These are burned off. You can only gain weight if you eat *more than* what your body's burning in a day.

    My TDEE is 1660 calories, today I had 3200 ( ate a very late dinner, was famished. Ate to much) will I gain weight? I wasn't 3500 ABOVE my daily allowance. Did I gain a few ounces?

    3200 - 1600 = 1600 calories........ bear in mind that if you've been eating in deficit for a while the surplus or some of the surplus will probably go into your glycogen stores rather than your fat stores........ it's possible you gained a few ounces of fat, but if you see a jump in scale weight then it's likely that you're seeing a gain in glycogen, and if you ate that many calories of salty food then you may also see a scale weight increase from water weight due to sodium. So some of the surplus will have become glycogen and some of it fat. If you work out, it's even possible that some or even all the surplus went towards building muscle.

    if you did gain some fat you'll lose it again just by getting back on track with eating at a deficit.

    Is 1600 really your TDEE or is it your calorie goal for fat loss? If it's your calorie goal for fat loss then your TDEE is higher than this and you would not have been than much over your maintenance. Maybe 1000 cal over maintenance if that.

    Also, if you're taking about an episode of unplanned/uncontrolled overeating, consider whether you've set your calorie target too low, as unplanned/uncontrolled overeating is often the direct result of eating too little.

    1660 is for me to maintain my weight. Not to lose. And no I didn't binge or eat way to much. I actually just had a PBJ sandwich with to much of PB on it, but it filled me up. But when I added everything it equaled 3200. I was active all day though but I didn't count any of it as burning anything.

    have you tested whether 1660 really is your maintenance calories? This is quite a low number, unless you're really petite and inactive. If you are then that's fine, but if you're active or you're not petite then I think your TDEE would be higher than this. MFP predicts that my maintenance (TDEE) calories are 1500........ reality is (based on real world observations i.e. what happens to my weight at different calorie goals) my TDEE is actually 2100 cals. 1500 is not only not maintenance, it's actually too big a calorie deficit for me. I'm at maintenance, but doing cutting and bulking cycles. For a cut cycle i eat 1700-1800 cals/day, I'm currently cutting with the intent of losing 5lb of fat, slowly. If I was obese and looking to lose more than that then 1500 probably would be a good number for that (the more fat you have the more you can lose without risking losses of lean mass). But for losing just 5lb 1500 cals is actually too low a calorie number........... yet MFP predicts this for me for maintenance. Anyway, I just wanted to explain that, because the calculators can be out by quite a lot sometimes.

    Also, your maintenance calories are not identical every day. On days when you're more active, they're higher. The TDEE numbers calculators give is an estimated average over time, on days when you're more active then you'll burn more. So take yesterday as your example... let's say 1600 calories TDEE is correct for a usual day because you're petite and sedentary, but yesterday you said you were active all day.... there is no way you burned only 1600 calories yesterday if you were active all day. Depending on what kind of activity, you could have burned over 1000 extra calories. So that would make yesterday's TDEE more like 2600 calories or even more than that. so your 3500 calories of food including your PBJ sandwich really would not be that much of a surplus. Bear in mind that this is just an estimate. What I find is that without logging/tracking I tend to eat at maintenance. If I let myself get too hungry then I'm more likely to eat at a surplus due to excessive hunger. So if your body's like that then it's probable that you were in a surplus yesterday , but it's likely to be much less of a surplus than you think. Or it's even possible that your hunger level matched your energy needs and you ate the right amount. And if you've underestimated your TDEE (i.e. your usual activity level TDEE) then that's another factor that suggests that what you ate yesterday may not have been a surplus.

    Thank you for explaining everything so well! I usually try eating at 1300-1500 even on days I do a workout. I generally work out 3-4 times a week, walking for an hour- 2 hours or jogging. Nothing to major. I work in retail most days and I'm always in motion so it isn't like I'm sitting on the couch all day..but on those work days I don't bother trying to figure if I'm burning anything.

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