Eating at a deficit and gaining muscle
cpusmc
Posts: 122
Ok folks. I need some help here.
Out of curiosity does anyone have any scientific papers or research analysis that supports this statement? I would like to read the studies that support this only because it is so widely used and "accepted" on MFP.
To elaborate, it does not make sense to me how I can eat at a calorie deficit, say 5% or so with protein kept at 1g/lbbw, lift heavy weights and get stronger but yet have gained no muscle. If muscles only get stronger by being broken down and re-built by the body and you are supplying the body with enough protein and amino acids even at a deficit for the muscle to be re-built, then how does the claim that eating at a deficit and not gaining muscle jive.... Now I agree that the muscle added will be calculated in grams versus lbs due to how difficult it is to add muscle even at a calorie surplus and it could take a very long time for those grams to finally hit 1lb of new muscle in a deficit state, but I am struggling with such a blanket statement that has become the universally accepted standard...
Again, not looking for a fight just some solid science to support that you cant eat at a deficit and not gain muscle... Or maybe something to support you cant get stronger while eating at a deficit? Or maybe something to support that getting stronger does not equate to adding muscle? I would like to learn something and better understand the science behind the statement that has become the default answer to almost every question on MFP. Thanks...
Sorry if you are eating in a deficit you can't gain muscle.
Out of curiosity does anyone have any scientific papers or research analysis that supports this statement? I would like to read the studies that support this only because it is so widely used and "accepted" on MFP.
To elaborate, it does not make sense to me how I can eat at a calorie deficit, say 5% or so with protein kept at 1g/lbbw, lift heavy weights and get stronger but yet have gained no muscle. If muscles only get stronger by being broken down and re-built by the body and you are supplying the body with enough protein and amino acids even at a deficit for the muscle to be re-built, then how does the claim that eating at a deficit and not gaining muscle jive.... Now I agree that the muscle added will be calculated in grams versus lbs due to how difficult it is to add muscle even at a calorie surplus and it could take a very long time for those grams to finally hit 1lb of new muscle in a deficit state, but I am struggling with such a blanket statement that has become the universally accepted standard...
Again, not looking for a fight just some solid science to support that you cant eat at a deficit and not gain muscle... Or maybe something to support you cant get stronger while eating at a deficit? Or maybe something to support that getting stronger does not equate to adding muscle? I would like to learn something and better understand the science behind the statement that has become the default answer to almost every question on MFP. Thanks...
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There are actually threads upon threads upon threads debating this.0
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http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/996906--you-can-t-build-muscle-on-a-calorie-deficit (14 pages)
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1213765-building-muscle-on-a-calorie-deficit (3 pages)
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/1222503-you-can-t-build-muscle-at-a-calorie-deficit-why-lift (6pages)
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/671870-can-t-build-muscle-on-a-calorie-deficit
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/593647-this-is-how-to-build-muscle-mass-on-a-calorie-deficit
http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/892904-can-t-build-muscle-while-at-a-deficit-revisited0 -
I have no scientific study one way or the other and there is not likely a lot of information just due to finding suitable subjects.
I think it is very difficult to do so.
But if I recall correctly, there has been at least one contestant on the BL that gained muscle while losing all his weight.
But the question becomes why is it difficult.
So think of it this way (and it depends on how much you are trying to lose and how much you work out and all those other factors).
Let's say you have a guy that has a top end healthy range of 180. And is carrying 50 extra lbs for a total of 230. Now with just this information, you really have no idea what his body make up is, how much is muscle and how much is fat.
But I can guarantee you, if he has the genetic makeup to build lots of muscle, then he is probably carrying more than a typical 180 lb guy. Why? Because he is carrying 50 extra lbs of weight everywhere he goes.
Someone in the gym, maybe spends an hour or so lifting and that is great (sure there are people that spend much more time and they are probably the ones that can build muscle while eating at a deficit). But no matter how much weight they are lifting in that hour, it is only for that hour. Whereas the dude in question goes everywhere with his 50 extra lbs.
So, now let's assume he is going to start eating less and exercising more. He begins to lose that weight. First, he goes down by 5 and is only carrying around 45 extra lbs. Then another 5, then another 5, before long, he is down 25 lbs. But that means, he is carrying 25 lbs less than he was. Were he to add a weight vest and add 5 lbs of weight every time he lost 5, maybe he could maintain, but the less weight he carries, the less muscle he needs to carry it.
Just as if a weight lifter started scaling back on the amount of weights they were lifting, they would start to lose the muscle they had built.
So while it is theoretically possible to gain muscle while eating at a deficit, it is quite difficult for the reasons mentioned above.0 -
This is basic human physiology. How do you think it would be possible to be anabolic while in a catabolic state? From a purely common sense POV, that just doesn't make sense. If it were possible to gain muscle mass while in a deficit of energy, it would likewise be possible to gain fat in a deficit of energy...both are anabolic states.
Strength gains do not necessarily equate to mass gains...strength gains are largely attributable to neural adaptation to the load, not a gain in mass. At some point you have to put on mass to become stronger...but you can go quite a long time with just neural adaptation and recruitment of existing muscle to make substantial strength gains without mass gains.
A complete newb to the gym with a lot of excess fat may put on a very small amount of muscle...but it would be hardly measurable. Body fat is a ****ty fuel and your body isn't going to use that ****ty fuel along with a deficit of energy coming in to build muscle...it is going to use that fuel for basic functions and a little bit of it to preserve that muscle since you are using it.0 -
There are actually threads upon threads upon threads debating this.
Great, 14 pages of opinions. Looking for some science to back all the opinions. Something that has been lab tested and published by the scientific community that emphatically states it is not possible to gain muscle at a deficit, excusing the normal caveat of newbies and the obese. I actually believe many of the opinions on the topic from the MFP posters may in fact be spot-on accurate but I would like to read the study that proves this out.... Thx. I will continue to leaf through the posts to try and find a relevant study... And if I do find one, I will post for all to read...0 -
There are actually threads upon threads upon threads debating this.
Great, 14 pages of opinions. Looking for some science to back all the opinions. Something that has been lab tested and published by the scientific community that emphatically states it is not possible to gain muscle at a deficit, excusing the normal caveat of newbies and the obese. I actually believe many of the opinions on the topic from the MFP posters may in fact be spot-on accurate but I would like to read the study that proves this out.... Thx. I will continue to leaf through the posts to try and find a relevant study... And if I do find one, I will post for all to read...
There are actually some links posted in some of the threads.
But if 14 pages of opinions didn't get the answer you are looking for, why do you think this one will?0 -
Strength gains do not necessarily equate to mass gains...strength gains are largely attributable to neural adaptation to the load, not a gain in mass. At some point you have to put on mass to become stronger...but you can go quite a long time with just neural adaptation and recruitment of existing muscle to make substantial strength gains without mass gains.
So this statement would indicate that you do believe it is possible to add muscle while at a deficit? Just curious? I recognize the difficulty of adding muscle and the very small amount of gain you can achieve but to your point, over the long term, you cannot continue to get stronger without adding muscle, even at a deficit. Correct?0 -
Before you took your photo down and set your profile to private, didn't you argue all this and get provided some data?0
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But if I recall correctly, there has been at least one contestant on the BL that gained muscle while losing all his weight.
Contestants on the biggest loser tend to fall in "extreme outlier" category, and can compass 2-3 categories:
1. Morbidly Obese
2. Severely Undertrained
3. Athlete returning to training.
In these 3 conditions it's "easier" to add mass while in a deficit, but those gains are normally short lived and in most cases fairly unsubstantial.0 -
There are actually some links posted in some of the threads.
But if 14 pages of opinions didn't get the answer you are looking for, why do you think this one will?
Science is constantly evolving and new studies are published daily. I figured it could not hurt to ask and see if anyone had seen or read anything new that could shed some new science on this age old debate...0 -
There are actually some links posted in some of the threads.
But if 14 pages of opinions didn't get the answer you are looking for, why do you think this one will?
Science is constantly evolving and new studies are published daily. I figured it could not hurt to ask and see if anyone had seen or read anything new that could shed some new science on this age old debate...
Since you asked the last time?0 -
http://body-improvements.com/2013/09/04/can-you-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
ETA this is a great site for information and the guy who runs it is very open. On the resource page http://body-improvements.com/resources/sites-we-like/ there are a ton of published people that you can sift through for information. GL.
Also a good site: http://scoobysworkshop.com/bulking-up-and-gaining-muscle/0 -
There are actually threads upon threads upon threads debating this.
Great, 14 pages of opinions. Looking for some science to back all the opinions. Something that has been lab tested and published by the scientific community that emphatically states it is not possible to gain muscle at a deficit, excusing the normal caveat of newbies and the obese. I actually believe many of the opinions on the topic from the MFP posters may in fact be spot-on accurate but I would like to read the study that proves this out.... Thx. I will continue to leaf through the posts to try and find a relevant study... And if I do find one, I will post for all to read...
you need science to backup basic math?
you can not build something out of nothing. If you want to build new muscle you have to have a surplus of calories to draw energy from and create said muscle. If you are in a calorie deficit where is the surplus energy to build new muscle?
You can't build a house and tear it down at the same time...
that is like saying I need a study to prove that 1+1=20 -
What people typically mean when they say you can't build muscle at a deficit is that you can't build significant amounts of muscle at a deficit. To put that another way, you can't add muscle nearly as easily as you can lose fat, and so while you may add a small amount of muscle it won't be nearly enough to offset your fat losses. Does that mean it's physically impossible to add even the smallest amount of muscle while eating at a deficit? Some people seem to think so but in my opinion that's them oversimplifying what others have said about building "significant" amounts of muscle at a deficit. If nothing else, it's a bit hard to reconcile people saying it defies the laws of physics to add muscle at a deficit... but you can do it if you're a "newb" who is obese. Last I checked, fat newbies can only defy the laws of physics in comic books.
Lyle has a good article on the topic (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html) but also pay attention to how he frames the question at the beginning.0 -
Increased strength has more to do with improved neuromuscular adaptation. When you are untrained, your brain isn't a good judge at predicting the weight of objects and the amount of muscle fibers to recruit. At first, your brain recruits an insufficient number which is explains weakness. As you gain more lifting experience, your brain becomes better at predicting weight and thus recruiting a sufficient number of fibers.0
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My simple non-scientist layman's answer is that while at a deficit, your body does not even have the calories it needs to sustain it's current state. HOW can it then add anything? Muscle or otherwise?
ETA: that's not a study. that's just logic.
I don't need a study to tell me I'm female or that the sun is out right now either. Just sayin'.0 -
What people typically mean when they say you can't build muscle at a deficit is that you can't build significant amounts of muscle at a deficit. To put that another way, you can't add muscle nearly as easily as you can lose fat, and so while you may add a small amount of muscle it won't be nearly enough to offset your fat losses. Does that mean it's physically impossible to add even the smallest amount of muscle while eating at a deficit? Some people seem to think so but in my opinion that's them oversimplifying what others have said about building "significant" amounts of muscle at a deficit. If nothing else, it's a bit hard to reconcile people saying it defies the laws of physics to add muscle at a deficit... but you can do it if you're a "newb" who is obese. Last I checked, fat newbies can only defy the laws of physics in comic books.
Lyle has a good article on the topic (http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.html) but also pay attention to how he frames the question at the beginning.
newbie gainz = yes, for the first few months...after the first few months it is basically impossible to add new muscle in a deficit...and that is a good article...0 -
There's your problem. The above statement is false.If muscles only get stronger by being broken down and re-built by the body0 -
Good stuff - Thanks!http://body-improvements.com/2013/09/04/can-you-build-muscle-and-lose-fat-at-the-same-time/
ETA this is a great site for information and the guy who runs it is very open. On the resource page http://body-improvements.com/resources/sites-we-like/ there are a ton of published people that you can sift through for information. GL.
Also a good site: http://scoobysworkshop.com/bulking-up-and-gaining-muscle/0 -
All I can offer is myself: I've been at right around 190lbs for around 4 months, eating at a deficit the whole time. According to my belt, my clothes, tape measure, and calipers, I have less body fat, am now smaller in the waist and can see where abs are, my upper arms are thicker and have more definition (As in I can see it now), my thighs are thicker and showing definition, and I am getting stronger (Unless someone has figured out how to give me fake weights at the gym)....and still eating at a deficit.
Yes, in Jan 2013 I weighed 220lbs, so I was carrying 30 more lbs...but I sat on my butt 90% of every day, and got winded trying to run a football field. I am now running a 30 minute 5k, after lifting weights for an hour, and when I get home I take my dog for a 1 mile walk as my cool down.
I was at 35% body fat, and now I am right about 20%.
My simple math show me as having been 220 = 143LBM+77fat
And now I am 190 = 152LBM+38fat
Now, is this a carefully monitored scientific study? Nope, just a guy eating, lifting, and running.0 -
IN!
Cause I got bored in the woman putting on too much muscle thread....0 -
IN!
Cause I got bored in the woman putting on too much muscle thread....
LOLOLOLOL0 -
All I can offer is myself: I've been at right around 190lbs for around 4 months, eating at a deficit the whole time. According to my belt, my clothes, tape measure, and calipers, I have less body fat, am now smaller in the waist and can see where abs are, my upper arms are thicker and have more definition (As in I can see it now), my thighs are thicker and showing definition, and I am getting stronger (Unless someone has figured out how to give me fake weights at the gym)....and still eating at a deficit.
Yes, in Jan 2013 I weighed 220lbs, so I was carrying 30 more lbs...but I sat on my butt 90% of every day, and got winded trying to run a football field. I am now running a 30 minute 5k, after lifting weights for an hour, and when I get home I take my dog for a 1 mile walk as my cool down.
I was at 35% body fat, and now I am right about 20%.
My simple math show me as having been 220 = 143LBM+77fat
And now I am 190 = 152LBM+38fat
Now, is this a carefully monitored scientific study? Nope, just a guy eating, lifting, and running.
great progress!
You more than likely experienced some newbie gains in the beginning, and that coupled with decrease body fat percentage showed the existing muscle that you already had, plus the newbie gains that you experienced....0 -
All I can offer is myself: I've been at right around 190lbs for around 4 months, eating at a deficit the whole time. According to my belt, my clothes, tape measure, and calipers, I have less body fat, am now smaller in the waist and can see where abs are, my upper arms are thicker and have more definition (As in I can see it now), my thighs are thicker and showing definition, and I am getting stronger (Unless someone has figured out how to give me fake weights at the gym)....and still eating at a deficit.
Yes, in Jan 2013 I weighed 220lbs, so I was carrying 30 more lbs...but I sat on my butt 90% of every day, and got winded trying to run a football field. I am now running a 30 minute 5k, after lifting weights for an hour, and when I get home I take my dog for a 1 mile walk as my cool down.
I was at 35% body fat, and now I am right about 20%.
My simple math show me as having been 220 = 143LBM+77fat
And now I am 190 = 152LBM+38fat
Now, is this a carefully monitored scientific study? Nope, just a guy eating, lifting, and running.
Just a couple of thoughts on this post -
1. You would likely fall in the exceptions listed above to start with.
2. Seeing more muscle doesn't mean you have added it, you have lost bodyfat and revealed the muscle below. This is often confused with adding muscle but not necessarily the same thing. Same with the strength thing- as mentioned above, added muscle is not required for increased strength.
3. How did you measure? Most methods have an error rate, some can be quite a bit off. Again not saying you didn't add mass, but the numbers are not necessarily hard and fast.
Either way great work, just bringing up the points in relation to this discussion since you brought it up, not knocking your work or results.0 -
My simple non-scientist layman's answer is that while at a deficit, your body does not even have the calories it needs to sustain it's current state. HOW can it then add anything? Muscle or otherwise?
ETA: that's not a study. that's just logic.
I don't need a study to tell me I'm female or that the sun is out right now either. Just sayin'.
I eat around 2400 cals per day, and I burn around 2900/day. So I need to burn about 500 fat cals (55 grams of fat) every day...I wonder what happens if my body burns 65grams of fat, and diverts some of the 150g of protein I eat each day to adding muscle.
Now, if I was running under 10% body fat, I might have a problem finding those extra cals to burn. But I am not. I got a big old spare tank of fuel just waiting to be tapped. And that is why the body builds up that fat...to be used when needed, as needed.0 -
All I can offer is myself: I've been at right around 190lbs for around 4 months, eating at a deficit the whole time. According to my belt, my clothes, tape measure, and calipers, I have less body fat, am now smaller in the waist and can see where abs are, my upper arms are thicker and have more definition (As in I can see it now), my thighs are thicker and showing definition, and I am getting stronger (Unless someone has figured out how to give me fake weights at the gym)....and still eating at a deficit.
Yes, in Jan 2013 I weighed 220lbs, so I was carrying 30 more lbs...but I sat on my butt 90% of every day, and got winded trying to run a football field. I am now running a 30 minute 5k, after lifting weights for an hour, and when I get home I take my dog for a 1 mile walk as my cool down.
I was at 35% body fat, and now I am right about 20%.
My simple math show me as having been 220 = 143LBM+77fat
And now I am 190 = 152LBM+38fat
Now, is this a carefully monitored scientific study? Nope, just a guy eating, lifting, and running.
This is awesome!! Thanks for sharing! It makes sense to me that one could put on muscle while on a deficit because I'm thinking that the body starts using stored fat for energy and perhaps even building.0 -
All I can offer is myself: I've been at right around 190lbs for around 4 months, eating at a deficit the whole time. According to my belt, my clothes, tape measure, and calipers, I have less body fat, am now smaller in the waist and can see where abs are, my upper arms are thicker and have more definition (As in I can see it now), my thighs are thicker and showing definition, and I am getting stronger (Unless someone has figured out how to give me fake weights at the gym)....and still eating at a deficit.
Yes, in Jan 2013 I weighed 220lbs, so I was carrying 30 more lbs...but I sat on my butt 90% of every day, and got winded trying to run a football field. I am now running a 30 minute 5k, after lifting weights for an hour, and when I get home I take my dog for a 1 mile walk as my cool down.
I was at 35% body fat, and now I am right about 20%.
My simple math show me as having been 220 = 143LBM+77fat
And now I am 190 = 152LBM+38fat
Now, is this a carefully monitored scientific study? Nope, just a guy eating, lifting, and running.
This is awesome!! Thanks for sharing! It makes sense to me that one could put on muscle while on a deficit because I'm thinking that the body starts using stored fat for energy and perhaps even building.
The body does use fat stores for energy, that is the entire point of them from an evolutionary/survival standpoint. It doesn't make sense that in a time of restriction our bodies would divert some of that energy to building more muscle which requires more energy when we are experiencing a decrease/restriction in calories.0 -
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There are actually threads upon threads upon threads debating this.
Great, 14 pages of opinions. Looking for some science to back all the opinions. Something that has been lab tested and published by the scientific community that emphatically states it is not possible to gain muscle at a deficit, excusing the normal caveat of newbies and the obese. I actually believe many of the opinions on the topic from the MFP posters may in fact be spot-on accurate but I would like to read the study that proves this out.... Thx. I will continue to leaf through the posts to try and find a relevant study... And if I do find one, I will post for all to read...
Do you have any scientifically backed studies that say differently? No? Then GTFO. You're only trying to argue and cause trouble yet you can't offer the one thing you demand from everyone else. Feel free to come back when you have something to contribute
Glad you said it, now I don't have to.0
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