Eating at a deficit and gaining muscle

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  • Sarahliquid
    Sarahliquid Posts: 201 Member
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    All I can offer is myself: I've been at right around 190lbs for around 4 months, eating at a deficit the whole time. According to my belt, my clothes, tape measure, and calipers, I have less body fat, am now smaller in the waist and can see where abs are, my upper arms are thicker and have more definition (As in I can see it now), my thighs are thicker and showing definition, and I am getting stronger (Unless someone has figured out how to give me fake weights at the gym)....and still eating at a deficit.

    Yes, in Jan 2013 I weighed 220lbs, so I was carrying 30 more lbs...but I sat on my butt 90% of every day, and got winded trying to run a football field. I am now running a 30 minute 5k, after lifting weights for an hour, and when I get home I take my dog for a 1 mile walk as my cool down.
    I was at 35% body fat, and now I am right about 20%.
    My simple math show me as having been 220 = 143LBM+77fat
    And now I am 190 = 152LBM+38fat

    Now, is this a carefully monitored scientific study? Nope, just a guy eating, lifting, and running.

    This is awesome!! Thanks for sharing! It makes sense to me that one could put on muscle while on a deficit because I'm thinking that the body starts using stored fat for energy and perhaps even building.


    The body does use fat stores for energy, that is the entire point of them from an evolutionary/survival standpoint. It doesn't make sense that in a time of restriction our bodies would divert some of that energy to building more muscle which requires more energy when we are experiencing a decrease/restriction in calories.

    This makes the most sense.
  • Morgaath
    Morgaath Posts: 679 Member
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    1. newbie gains
    2. fat loss that makes muscle show...

    I am not sure if I am not reading your post correctly, but you seem to be conflating fat loss with muscle gain. The reason that your waist is smaller is because you lost fat and weight....

    Question was asked "Can you gain muscle while eating at a deficit"
    I say I did.
    People keep saying "Newbie gains...newbie gains...newbie gains"
    Newbie gains of...what? Say it with me now... Muscle.
    At the same time I lost fat.

    In the 15 months that I have been working on changing my life I have watched as for 11 months measurements got smaller and smaller, and then some of them started to get bigger while others, mainly my waist, continued to get smaller. Some of my measurements are now bigger than when I was fatter, and heavier.

    For the first 9 months I was doing lots of cardio, and my lifting consisted of doing 15-20 rep sets on machines at weights that didn't leave me hurting the next day.
    6 months ago I moved over to free weights, and started doing 5x5 Strong Lifts, and cutting back on the cardio. I also changed from eating 1300 to 1700 to 2000 to 2100...but with workout cals, I average 2400 now. According to Bodymedia, and 6 different TDEE cacluators I average burning 2900 cals a day now. Yesterday I burned 2362...Day before that 3439.
    Two months after that is when I started noticing my arms, chest and thighs stopped getting smaller, while my waist was still shrinking.
    Now I am at 4 months of seeing the tape tell me my arms are bigger than the month before, same for thighs and chest.
    I looked at my numbers from Jan 2013...and those three things are higher numbers now then they were back in Jan 2013. If you put the numbers on a graph it would be a V. They went down for a long time, and now they are going up.

    Now, gains are easy, because there is lots of untapped potential... Do I think I'll still be able to add muscle at a deficit after 2 years of doing this? No. I won't still have all this extra fat, nor will I have muscles that have been lying around basically unused for decades.
    Does it mean I am not doing it now? Well, you all seem to think I am, as you keep saying I have newbie gains... of muscle.

    If my measurements were still going down...well, then it would be just fat loss, no question. But when I started seeing my arms getting bigger...can any of you give me an answer as to what other than muscle it could be....6 months after I started lifting?
    I told more than enough people on here "Water weight...new workout...muscles repairing themselves"...And if I am carrying 1.5" of water weight in my arms, why am I seeing more definition then I was before I started lifting heavier? So what else could it be?
    And why has my weight basically stalled, while my waist is getting smaller, my arms, legs and chest bigger?
    No
    I'm not sure what your argument truly is here. You are trying to prove a point to have you been some sort of anomaly and want to disregard the notion of "noob gains". But then when someone reads what you wrote you are basically describing mood gains. You seem to want to believe what you want because it's what you want to be true. It's easy for us to do that.

    You are saying that you spent months training on machines and didn't really get into a barbell routine with progressive overload until after 9 months and I get that but you are then taking the statement that noob gains will generally last between 6-8 months and applying it to your situation when that shouldn't be the case. During those months that you were on those machines there is a very high probability that you were not maximizing your strength training potential and doing everything possible to achieve option MPS. Especially with your statement that you were eating under 1500 calories and were training in a 15-20 rep range. Then you move over to a well structured routine with built in progressive overload and you think that just because you were on some machines for 8 months prior you maxed out your noob gains? It doesn't work that way.

    You saw some increase in some physical areas but you have to look at the bigger picture, what really happens with our muscles with proper training. Increased glycogen, noob gains added strength mostly due to CNS adaptation. All of these factors coupled with fat loss creates the illusion of us putting on a considerable amount of actual muscle.

    No.... I am saying I gained muscle, while eating at a deficit. That is the point I am trying to make.

    If you cut my arm open there would be more muscle and less fat then was in there 15 months ago, 9 months ago, 1 month ago.
    You can call it newbie gains, or even Sammy Hagar for all I care.
    It is muscle, no matter what you call it.
    Doctors can't look at a persons arm and point at a section and say "Well, that section is newbie gains" like a ring on a tree.
    There is no biological difference between a pound of muscle added in the first 6 months of a person working out, and a pound added 10 years into working out....other than the guy who just started likely added it way easier.

    OP asked if it is possible to add muscle while eating at a deficit.
    I said yes.
    So did some others who have recently gotten into lifting.
    I pointed out I spent 9 months focusing on losing weight, and lost about 30lbs, before I started lifting...which is when I started adding muscle.
    You are telling me that I added 1.5" onto my upper arm over 6 months, and that it is all increased glycogen/water...and yet, I have more definition now, then when it was smaller? Remind me again why bodybuilder dehydrate themselves before they go on stage.... Oh yeah, it is because the water dulls all the definition. And mind you, I am not saying I have huge arms...I am saying I've gone from 11" to 12.5" in 6months....but at 220lbs in Jan 2013 the same arm was 12.25".
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
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    1. newbie gains
    2. fat loss that makes muscle show...

    I am not sure if I am not reading your post correctly, but you seem to be conflating fat loss with muscle gain. The reason that your waist is smaller is because you lost fat and weight....

    Question was asked "Can you gain muscle while eating at a deficit"
    I say I did.
    People keep saying "Newbie gains...newbie gains...newbie gains"
    Newbie gains of...what? Say it with me now... Muscle.
    At the same time I lost fat.

    In the 15 months that I have been working on changing my life I have watched as for 11 months measurements got smaller and smaller, and then some of them started to get bigger while others, mainly my waist, continued to get smaller. Some of my measurements are now bigger than when I was fatter, and heavier.

    For the first 9 months I was doing lots of cardio, and my lifting consisted of doing 15-20 rep sets on machines at weights that didn't leave me hurting the next day.
    6 months ago I moved over to free weights, and started doing 5x5 Strong Lifts, and cutting back on the cardio. I also changed from eating 1300 to 1700 to 2000 to 2100...but with workout cals, I average 2400 now. According to Bodymedia, and 6 different TDEE cacluators I average burning 2900 cals a day now. Yesterday I burned 2362...Day before that 3439.
    Two months after that is when I started noticing my arms, chest and thighs stopped getting smaller, while my waist was still shrinking.
    Now I am at 4 months of seeing the tape tell me my arms are bigger than the month before, same for thighs and chest.
    I looked at my numbers from Jan 2013...and those three things are higher numbers now then they were back in Jan 2013. If you put the numbers on a graph it would be a V. They went down for a long time, and now they are going up.

    Now, gains are easy, because there is lots of untapped potential... Do I think I'll still be able to add muscle at a deficit after 2 years of doing this? No. I won't still have all this extra fat, nor will I have muscles that have been lying around basically unused for decades.
    Does it mean I am not doing it now? Well, you all seem to think I am, as you keep saying I have newbie gains... of muscle.

    If my measurements were still going down...well, then it would be just fat loss, no question. But when I started seeing my arms getting bigger...can any of you give me an answer as to what other than muscle it could be....6 months after I started lifting?
    I told more than enough people on here "Water weight...new workout...muscles repairing themselves"...And if I am carrying 1.5" of water weight in my arms, why am I seeing more definition then I was before I started lifting heavier? So what else could it be?
    And why has my weight basically stalled, while my waist is getting smaller, my arms, legs and chest bigger?
    No
    I'm not sure what your argument truly is here. You are trying to prove a point to have you been some sort of anomaly and want to disregard the notion of "noob gains". But then when someone reads what you wrote you are basically describing mood gains. You seem to want to believe what you want because it's what you want to be true. It's easy for us to do that.

    You are saying that you spent months training on machines and didn't really get into a barbell routine with progressive overload until after 9 months and I get that but you are then taking the statement that noob gains will generally last between 6-8 months and applying it to your situation when that shouldn't be the case. During those months that you were on those machines there is a very high probability that you were not maximizing your strength training potential and doing everything possible to achieve option MPS. Especially with your statement that you were eating under 1500 calories and were training in a 15-20 rep range. Then you move over to a well structured routine with built in progressive overload and you think that just because you were on some machines for 8 months prior you maxed out your noob gains? It doesn't work that way.

    You saw some increase in some physical areas but you have to look at the bigger picture, what really happens with our muscles with proper training. Increased glycogen, noob gains added strength mostly due to CNS adaptation. All of these factors coupled with fat loss creates the illusion of us putting on a considerable amount of actual muscle.

    No.... I am saying I gained muscle, while eating at a deficit. That is the point I am trying to make.

    If you cut my arm open there would be more muscle and less fat then was in there 15 months ago, 9 months ago, 1 month ago.
    You can call it newbie gains, or even Sammy Hagar for all I care.
    It is muscle, no matter what you call it.
    Doctors can't look at a persons arm and point at a section and say "Well, that section is newbie gains" like a ring on a tree.
    There is no biological difference between a pound of muscle added in the first 6 months of a person working out, and a pound added 10 years into working out....other than the guy who just started likely added it way easier.

    OP asked if it is possible to add muscle while eating at a deficit.
    I said yes.
    So did some others who have recently gotten into lifting.
    I pointed out I spent 9 months focusing on losing weight, and lost about 30lbs, before I started lifting...which is when I started adding muscle.
    You are telling me that I added 1.5" onto my upper arm over 6 months, and that it is all increased glycogen/water...and yet, I have more definition now, then when it was smaller? Remind me again why bodybuilder dehydrate themselves before they go on stage.... Oh yeah, it is because the water dulls all the definition. And mind you, I am not saying I have huge arms...I am saying I've gone from 11" to 12.5" in 6months....but at 220lbs in Jan 2013 the same arm was 12.25".

    what we are saying is that after the initial noob muscle gain that the returns diminish after about six months and it you will not build new muscle while eating in a deficit, period.

    yes, your arms "look" bigger because you have a combination of initial noob gains, fat loss, and water retention…

    I am also confused by your one statement. you said that you eat 2400 calories a day but that you burn 2900 a day so you are at negative 500 a day, or am I misreading that?
  • iPlatano
    iPlatano Posts: 487 Member
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    Your body doesn't do once thing for the whole day. Its always repating itself throughout the day so yes you can but it wont last too long.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,167 Member
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    Honest question........

    Are you even reading the replies before you post? People have clearly stated several times the situations where people can experience muscle growth like new lifters, obese etc.....yet you are saying you are telling the OP there is a way to do it because you did it as a new lifter. What am I missing here? You are describing the same thing a bunch of people here have already said can happen.

    You also are clearly not reading if you're saying I said you gained 1.5 inches in glycogen only in 6 months. I never said that. I clearly said that's a result of several things. If you come back arguing something that has already been pointed out several time ls or saying I said something I didn't then don't bother replying because it's not worth going back and forth about nothing.

    This is pretty much what I was getting at with my last post to him and why I didn't even bother to continue attempting to discuss with him. It was clear he did not read what I had written. I was going to add to my clarification post that he is basically a good example of the exceptions that everyone has already talked about (although I would add that Galatea's addition to my post about LBM is also very relevant in this situation as well).
  • cargotrailer
    cargotrailer Posts: 62 Member
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    .
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,268 Member
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    IN!

    Cause I got bored in the woman putting on too much muscle thread....

    Damn I missed that one..apparently back again tho...going to that one next..

    As for this whole debate...

    Please...if you could gain muscle while on a deficet I would be gaining muscle...I lift heavy, I get in lots of protien and I have yet to see an increase in my LBM period...I have gained a tonne of strength but lost LBM...oh well guess I am not as lucky as others...
  • SezxyStef
    SezxyStef Posts: 15,268 Member
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    That's crap .. during my "deficit phase" I lost 49 lbs of body fat and gained 10 lbs of muscle.

    I am in maintenance now .. but it is totally possible to gain muscle. I did lots of resistance training and protein, it does work.

    you follow dr oz (per your profile) therefore anything you have said in the past or in the future is null and void. :bigsmile:
  • Frood42
    Frood42 Posts: 245 Member
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    :explode:

    How are you going to build muscle if you eat at a deficit..?
    Where does this magical building material for new muscle growth come from?


    :sad:
    .
  • TravisMalsbary
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    What if the body is metabolizing fat stores for energy and therefore using all or most of the 1600 calories and 200 grams of protein to build muscle? Just a thought.
  • MattyFTM
    MattyFTM Posts: 68 Member
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    I just did a little bit of searching on the subject, I've found this scientific research on the subject:

    http://www.researchgate.net/publication/51113664_Effect_of_two_different_weight-loss_rates_on_body_composition_and_strength_and_power-related_performance_in_elite_athletes?ev=pub_srch_pub

    It basically suggests that if you are at a modest deficit, losing 0.7% of your body weight, it is possible to slowly gain muscle at the same time.
  • prattiger65
    prattiger65 Posts: 1,657 Member
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    Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion sill. My grandmother used to say this. I guess I am the anti-snowflake because as hard as I have tried over the last 19 months to lose weight and gain muscle.....I have failed. Lost lots of fat......gained no appreciable muscle. What I wouldn't give to be a genetic anomaly snowflake.
  • 3dogsrunning
    3dogsrunning Posts: 27,167 Member
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    Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion sill. My grandmother used to say this. I guess I am the anti-snowflake because as hard as I have tried over the last 19 months to lose weight and gain muscle.....I have failed. Lost lots of fat......gained no appreciable muscle. What I wouldn't give to be a genetic anomaly snowflake.

    A lot of us would love to be that anomally, just as I would love to be that woman who gains muscle just by looking at a dumbell. I also dropped a lot of fat and appeared to become more muscular, however did not gain any appreciable muscle mass.
    Competitive bodybuilders would sell their souls for it.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
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    What if the body is metabolizing fat stores for energy and therefore using all or most of the 1600 calories and 200 grams of protein to build muscle? Just a thought.

    you really think the human body is that efficient?
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,811 Member
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    What if the body is metabolizing fat stores for energy and therefore using all or most of the 1600 calories and 200 grams of protein to build muscle? Just a thought.
    After all the usual silliness, name calling and equating deficit with "nothing" the role of fat is surely the central issue at debate?

    Think most people agree that to build muscle you need muscle stress (in the form of overlioad), adequate protein and energy. Uneven eating methods may help (debatable).

    So it boils down to can people with sufficient fat reserves partition some of that store of energy? A survival response to preserve fat at a low calorie deficit seems unlikely to me, otherwise fat loss would be harder than it is..
    People seem to forget that using fat for energy isn't something you have to do anything special to trigger - it's a normal part of everyone's day.

    Always interesting that those with plenty of training years under their belt and low body fat are in the vanguard of the "impossible" argument.
  • ndj1979
    ndj1979 Posts: 29,139 Member
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    Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion sill. My grandmother used to say this. I guess I am the anti-snowflake because as hard as I have tried over the last 19 months to lose weight and gain muscle.....I have failed. Lost lots of fat......gained no appreciable muscle. What I wouldn't give to be a genetic anomaly snowflake.

    A lot of us would love to be that anomally, just as I would love to be that woman who gains muscle just by looking at a dumbell. I also dropped a lot of fat and appeared to become more muscular, however did not gain any appreciable muscle mass.
    Competitive bodybuilders would sell their souls for it.

    seriously, this is like the "holy grail" of lifting ...lose body fat and build muscle at the same time AND eat in a deficit....