Eating at a deficit and gaining muscle
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Those convinced against their will are of the same opinion sill. My grandmother used to say this. I guess I am the anti-snowflake because as hard as I have tried over the last 19 months to lose weight and gain muscle.....I have failed. Lost lots of fat......gained no appreciable muscle. What I wouldn't give to be a genetic anomaly snowflake.
A lot of us would love to be that anomally, just as I would love to be that woman who gains muscle just by looking at a dumbell. I also dropped a lot of fat and appeared to become more muscular, however did not gain any appreciable muscle mass.
Competitive bodybuilders would sell their souls for it.
if it could be bottled and marketed- let me tell you what- you would make millions.
This whole hard work and dieting *kitten* is REALLY eating into my drinking time.0 -
I was recently part of a debate over on a different site where this idea was thrown around in regards to running a 1 week bulk/1 weeks cut cycle in order to get hypertrophy one week and oxidize fat the next week. The general theory is that in order to cause hypertrophy to occur we need more consistency in our surplus to have it occur. I haven't seen any documentation on anyone actually being successful with such an experiment but if there has been I'd be more than curious to read about it.someone posted a bunch of links about body recomposition.
i'm sure you can gain muscle and lose fat over a certain peroid of time, but i got to think whats really happening there is that your sometimes at a moderate surplus, sometimes at a moderate defecit
I'm not sure a novice would be able to accomplish this even by trying and even less by mistake.
i agree with what your saying, but its my best explination as to how it could possibly work for someone who's not brand spanking new, on steroids or very overweight.
now i'm off to find out what the hell a DEXA scan is lol0 -
I was recently part of a debate over on a different site where this idea was thrown around in regards to running a 1 week bulk/1 weeks cut cycle in order to get hypertrophy one week and oxidize fat the next week. The general theory is that in order to cause hypertrophy to occur we need more consistency in our surplus to have it occur. I haven't seen any documentation on anyone actually being successful with such an experiment but if there has been I'd be more than curious to read about it.someone posted a bunch of links about body recomposition.
i'm sure you can gain muscle and lose fat over a certain peroid of time, but i got to think whats really happening there is that your sometimes at a moderate surplus, sometimes at a moderate defecit
I'm not sure a novice would be able to accomplish this even by trying and even less by mistake.
i agree with what your saying, but its my best explination as to how it could possibly work for someone who's not brand spanking new, on steroids or very overweight.
now i'm off to find out what the hell a DEXA scan is lol
Let me know your results.
I haven't been able to find an answer one way or another. Some places say it is the most accurate, other sources say it isn't at all.
I do know one lady here posted her pics for people to guess her results and looked closer to 25%. Her results were 15% BF. She had also fasted and done an intense workout before hand so I don't know how much that factors in.0 -
idk, wiki says its primairly used to measure bone density, but is about as accurate as hydro static weighting when used to test BF%
which makes it amongst the most accurate BF% tests.... but still doesn't mean its getting the number right.0 -
I just did a little bit of searching on the subject, I've found this scientific research on the subject:
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/51113664_Effect_of_two_different_weight-loss_rates_on_body_composition_and_strength_and_power-related_performance_in_elite_athletes?ev=pub_srch_pub
It basically suggests that if you are at a modest deficit, losing 0.7% of your body weight, it is possible to slowly gain muscle at the same time.
Ah, very interesting. I asked about this earlier in the thread but it kind of got lost in all the arguing. Thanks!0 -
idk, wiki says its primairly used to measure bone density, but is about as accurate as hydro static weighting when used to test BF%
which makes it amongst the most accurate BF% tests.... but still doesn't mean its getting the number right.
This is what I've always read too. That DEXA and hydrostatic weighing are the gold standard of BF measurement. If all you want to know is BF% hydro weighing would probably be smarter as DEXA is a long period of x-ray, and it's more expensive.
DEXA is primarily used to determine bone density.0 -
I've had two hydros done by the same technician -- comes around my workplace gym once per quarter in a mobile testing van. I just found out I can get a DEXA done at Stanford (though it is a little spendy). If I can make the timing work, when the mobile van comes sometime in May presumably, I am hoping to arrange for a DEXA early AM and then the hydro later AM. Very curious about a direct comparison!0
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I've come to rely on the information Jeff Cavaliere provides. He has the credentials to back up his information, and is the former physical therapist and strength coach for the Mets. He explains how it is possible to gain muscle and lose fat in the following link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3AG-oCXTE#t=10
Cut/paste from his website: Jeff received his Masters Degree in Physical Therapy and Bachelor of Science in Physioneurobiology / Premedicine from the University of Connecticut in Storrs, CT (one of the top 5 universities in the country in physical therapy and sports medicine).0 -
OP, there are lots of sources out there that verify that you CAN gain muscle while eating at a deficit ... under 2 conditions. One is if you are very new to fitness, no real muscle tone at all to begin with and the other is if you USED to be athletic but then a period of lethargy atrophied all your muscle away. Then you can regain it fairly quickly EVEN IF eating at a deficit.
I am one person who can tell you for sure that I have traded 12 lbs of fat for 12 lbs of lean muscle in my journey thus far. How did I arrive at this number?
I started at 380 and began losing with cardio only. But then very quickly learned to add some strength training to the mix, but NOT heavy lifting because I have a hernia. However, my research shows that at my high weight, my BODY WEIGHT was the added weight being flung around in my cardio that added to my strength gains and muscle gains. I also added dumbbell training, kettlebell, ankle and wrist weights throughout my cardio and various other small techniques that added up: carrying all my equipment at work rather than wheeling it on a cart, carrying heavier loads from grocery trips, doing dumbbell training, going hands-free on elliptical (this is a great core strength training strategy), resistance training on the mini-stepper in my office, and various other ways that I let my body lift my own weight to develop muscle.
I lost weight rapidly at first (mostly water) and then it slowed down. My fat loss is scheduled at 2 lb a week (the calorie formula I use) but then slowed to about 1/2-1 lb a week just as I was feeling a lot more strength, balance and endurance, really feeling my benefits of my workouts (about 5-6 months in). That's when my scale loss slowed.
I got a body composition scale that shows that during a 10 week period, I should have lost 20 lbs but only lost 7 on the scale. All sorts of accusations of my overeating, underrecording, etc. but I knew that wasn't it. At around 300 lbs at this point, I checked my body composition scale again and saw that I had only lost 7 lbs but my fat loss had dropped 4% and my muscle gain had risen the same 4%. Well, 4% of 300 lbs is about 12 lbs. That confirmed what I had been feeling and others had been seeing ... lots of NEW muscle!! Even at 293 currently, I have VISIBLE new muscle in arms and legs and can feel a tremendously strengthened core --- after 9 months of daily heavy workouts (both cardio and strength), I'm feeling amazing and I can promise you with 100% certainty that you CAN and WILL gain new muscle (sometimes significantly—my 4%/12 lb exchange happened over about 3 months, give or take). So that 7 lb loss + 12 lb exchange + 1-2 lbs of water puts me right on track with my calorie intake/output and 20 lb difference that was made by my efforts. Only 7 visible on the scale, but I can feel the 12 lb difference a LOT! Muscle *FEELS* a lot lighter than fat even though it's heavier by volume.
Human bodies are always proving science wrong (esp bro-science!). Go by what WORKS for you! Don't let anyone convince you that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit ... too many examples of that myth simply not being true! Maybe for some people (who already have a degree of muscle fitness when they start) but certainly not for all.0 -
OP, there are lots of sources out there that verify that you CAN gain muscle while eating at a deficit ... under 2 conditions. One is if you are very new to fitness, no real muscle tone at all to begin with and the other is if you USED to be athletic but then a period of lethargy atrophied all your muscle away. Then you can regain it fairly quickly EVEN IF eating at a deficit.
I am one person who can tell you for sure that I have traded 12 lbs of fat for 12 lbs of lean muscle in my journey thus far. How did I arrive at this number?
I started at 380 and began losing with cardio only. But then very quickly learned to add some strength training to the mix, but NOT heavy lifting because I have a hernia. However, my research shows that at my high weight, my BODY WEIGHT was the added weight being flung around in my cardio that added to my strength gains and muscle gains. I also added dumbbell training, kettlebell, ankle and wrist weights throughout my cardio and various other small techniques that added up: carrying all my equipment at work rather than wheeling it on a cart, carrying heavier loads from grocery trips, doing dumbbell training, going hands-free on elliptical (this is a great core strength training strategy), resistance training on the mini-stepper in my office, and various other ways that I let my body lift my own weight to develop muscle.
I lost weight rapidly at first (mostly water) and then it slowed down. My fat loss is scheduled at 2 lb a week (the calorie formula I use) but then slowed to about 1/2-1 lb a week just as I was feeling a lot more strength, balance and endurance, really feeling my benefits of my workouts (about 5-6 months in). That's when my scale loss slowed.
I got a body composition scale that shows that during a 10 week period, I should have lost 20 lbs but only lost 7 on the scale. All sorts of accusations of my overeating, underrecording, etc. but I knew that wasn't it. At around 300 lbs at this point, I checked my body composition scale again and saw that I had only lost 7 lbs but my fat loss had dropped 4% and my muscle gain had risen the same 4%. Well, 4% of 300 lbs is about 12 lbs. That confirmed what I had been feeling and others had been seeing ... lots of NEW muscle!! Even at 293 currently, I have VISIBLE new muscle in arms and legs and can feel a tremendously strengthened core --- after 9 months of daily heavy workouts (both cardio and strength), I'm feeling amazing and I can promise you with 100% certainty that you CAN and WILL gain new muscle (sometimes significantly—my 4%/12 lb exchange happened over about 3 months, give or take). So that 7 lb loss + 12 lb exchange + 1-2 lbs of water puts me right on track with my calorie intake/output and 20 lb difference that was made by my efforts. Only 7 visible on the scale, but I can feel the 12 lb difference a LOT! Muscle *FEELS* a lot lighter than fat even though it's heavier by volume.
Human bodies are always proving science wrong (esp bro-science!). Go by what WORKS for you! Don't let anyone convince you that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit ... too many examples of that myth simply not being true! Maybe for some people (who already have a degree of muscle fitness when they start) but certainly not for all.
FTR - those of us arguing here that you cannot gain muscle while eating at a deficit do accept that there are a few exceptions, specifically the ones you pointed out. That is a limited amount however.
Regarding the video - I am at work and cannot watch. I also loathe watching these things, why can't they just write it? :laugh: I'd much rather read. Anyone want to do a coles notes version?0 -
All I know is I'm working my butt off just to maintain my muscle mass so in for more education.0
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cuz took only 4 minutes to type it out. and typing builds more muscle than reading, especially since i knew exactly what i'd be reading. heh.
stalking me again? *blush*
Then I don't understand, you seem to be arguing points and "proving" things that you already knew we agree on.
I also don't understand the stalking point, he has been in the thread since the beginning and responding to most of the posts.0 -
A shirtless guy delivers a white-board presentation.OP, there are lots of sources out there that verify that you CAN gain muscle while eating at a deficit ... under 2 conditions. One is if you are very new to fitness, no real muscle tone at all to begin with and the other is if you USED to be athletic but then a period of lethargy atrophied all your muscle away. Then you can regain it fairly quickly EVEN IF eating at a deficit.
I am one person who can tell you for sure that I have traded 12 lbs of fat for 12 lbs of lean muscle in my journey thus far. How did I arrive at this number?
I started at 380 and began losing with cardio only. But then very quickly learned to add some strength training to the mix, but NOT heavy lifting because I have a hernia. However, my research shows that at my high weight, my BODY WEIGHT was the added weight being flung around in my cardio that added to my strength gains and muscle gains. I also added dumbbell training, kettlebell, ankle and wrist weights throughout my cardio and various other small techniques that added up: carrying all my equipment at work rather than wheeling it on a cart, carrying heavier loads from grocery trips, doing dumbbell training, going hands-free on elliptical (this is a great core strength training strategy), resistance training on the mini-stepper in my office, and various other ways that I let my body lift my own weight to develop muscle.
I lost weight rapidly at first (mostly water) and then it slowed down. My fat loss is scheduled at 2 lb a week (the calorie formula I use) but then slowed to about 1/2-1 lb a week just as I was feeling a lot more strength, balance and endurance, really feeling my benefits of my workouts (about 5-6 months in). That's when my scale loss slowed.
I got a body composition scale that shows that during a 10 week period, I should have lost 20 lbs but only lost 7 on the scale. All sorts of accusations of my overeating, underrecording, etc. but I knew that wasn't it. At around 300 lbs at this point, I checked my body composition scale again and saw that I had only lost 7 lbs but my fat loss had dropped 4% and my muscle gain had risen the same 4%. Well, 4% of 300 lbs is about 12 lbs. That confirmed what I had been feeling and others had been seeing ... lots of NEW muscle!! Even at 293 currently, I have VISIBLE new muscle in arms and legs and can feel a tremendously strengthened core --- after 9 months of daily heavy workouts (both cardio and strength), I'm feeling amazing and I can promise you with 100% certainty that you CAN and WILL gain new muscle (sometimes significantly—my 4%/12 lb exchange happened over about 3 months, give or take). So that 7 lb loss + 12 lb exchange + 1-2 lbs of water puts me right on track with my calorie intake/output and 20 lb difference that was made by my efforts. Only 7 visible on the scale, but I can feel the 12 lb difference a LOT! Muscle *FEELS* a lot lighter than fat even though it's heavier by volume.
Human bodies are always proving science wrong (esp bro-science!). Go by what WORKS for you! Don't let anyone convince you that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit ... too many examples of that myth simply not being true! Maybe for some people (who already have a degree of muscle fitness when they start) but certainly not for all.
FTR - those of us arguing here that you cannot gain muscle while eating at a deficit do accept that there are a few exceptions, specifically the ones you pointed out. That is a limited amount however.
Regarding the video - I am at work and cannot watch. I also loathe watching these things, why can't they just write it? :laugh: I'd much rather read. Anyone want to do a coles notes version?
He says you have to be at a caloric deficit in order to lose fat, but you do not necessarily need to be at a caloric surplus in order to gain muscle. Rather, he says you need to be in a positive nitrogen balance buy eating adequate protein (he says it's difficult to do without taking protein supplements), not over-training (stimulate not annihilate, workouts no longer than 40 minutes), and sleeping well.
He recommends 1.5 grams of protein/kg of body weight. He says it is a slower process than bulking and cutting, but you'll look great year around using his approach.0 -
Human bodies are always proving science wrong (esp bro-science!). Go by what WORKS for you! Don't let anyone convince you that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit ... too many examples of that myth simply not being true! Maybe for some people (who already have a degree of muscle fitness when they start) but certainly not for all.
so saying that with the exception of newb gains and lay off from athletic performance that one cannot build muscle in a calorie deficit is "bro-science", really?0 -
Dr Dan Benardot in his book "Advanced Sports Nutrition" suggest that the following conditions make it entirely possible to gain muscle mass while being at a net calorie deficit:
1) Adequate protein intake (1.5 grams/kg of body weight).
2) Protein intake distributed evenly throughout the day. (Keeping the amino acid "pool" stocked)
3) Avoid large bolus meals (i.e., don't get all your calories in one sitting).
4) Keep your daily deficit small ( no more than 250 calories/day, for a maximum 1/2lb/week weight loss)
5) Be at a calorie deficit before workouts and a calorie surplus after workouts, even though the net for the day is a slight deficit.0 -
Amongst all the arguments not seen any real science - just strongly held beliefs and suppositions.
Human bodies are always proving science wrong (esp bro-science!). Go by what WORKS for you! Don't let anyone convince you that you can't build muscle while eating at a deficit ... too many examples of that myth simply not being true! Maybe for some people (who already have a degree of muscle fitness when they start) but certainly not for all.
so saying that with the exception of newb gains and lay off from athletic performance that one cannot build muscle in a calorie deficit is "bro-science", really?
If belief is in your definition of bro-science then yes.0 -
never mind0
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