another exercise instead of deadlifts
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This thread has gone off the rails.0
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This thread has gone off the rails.
Don't they all? :laugh:0 -
Would Prone Hyperextensions, with ankles anchored under a strap or with partner holding ankles down, bending forward over the end of the bench and then up into Cobra position be a fair substitute for deadlift? It is hitting the hamstrings and the whole posterior chain as a DL does, just no grip or shoulder/arm involvement.
I would then couple this movement with pull-ups to work the back and pulling musculature from a different plane.
That's if you didn't want to do DLs. I'm not saying the substitutes here are superior, but the OP was asking for "instead of".0 -
So NOT what I THOUGHT good mornings were. Had to look that one up. I have gutter brain. :laugh:0
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So NOT what I THOUGHT good mornings were. Had to look that one up. I have gutter brain. :laugh:
The picture is a Donkey Calf Raise, which has no relevance whatsoever to this thread, which doesn't really matter because as mentioned this thread has gone off track anyway...0 -
What does 'benefit' mean in this context? If you're looking for lat/rhomboid/teres stimulation and growth then rows will trump deads. If you're looking for hamstring growth then rdls' will likely trump regular deads. If you're talking 'gh production' or other assorted unnoticeable claims then you're right....I love deadlifts. I am actually still working on my form as well. That said, unless you are planning on competing in a PL competition, they are certainly not necessary. You can get the posterior chain firing from a myriad of different movements (many already mentioned).
People that are into the 3 big lifts love to use "bang for your buck" cliche. There might be some truth in that for some. Not so much for others. What are your goals? What do you enjoy? As you mentioned, is injury a concern? Etc. Etc.
the two best posts in the thread0 -
You realize rows, chin ups, squats and rdls are all compound lifts too? I'll ask you what I asked the other person, what definable 'bang for your buck' does a deadlift have that these others don't have? Do you understand that being able to do a lift properly give you way more 'bang for your buck' than a lift you can't do?
The dogma on this forum is so backwards at times.
You sound like a pretty knowledgeable guy, so I'm confused as to why you are so hell bent on bashing Deadlifts?
Simply stated, Deadlifts and Barbell Squats are the 2 best lifts because they work 1/3+ of the muscles in your body. Rows & Chin Ups don't even come close to this. Row, Chin Ups, and RDLs are considered by most to be "accessory lifts" for a reason.
That said if one is not able to perform a lift properly then they need to learn how to do so and not give up and blow off the lift. I do not believe that the OP "can't do" a Deadlift. In my experiences I've never met someone, with proper coaching, who can't Deadlift. Curious if the OP isn't lifting 135lbs, does she have the barbell properly elevated off the floor? Just a hunch, but I bet that's the issue. All the OP needs to do is post a video and there's many people here, myself included, who could correct her form
Firstly thanks, and thanks for engaging with the issue without appeals to indefinables.
I'm not bashing deadlifts, but I think they are overrated for the non-competitive trainee, I think they are the most difficult lift to recover from, and I think they are deceptively simple to learn but awfully hard to master which leads many people to injure themselves.
You say yourself that people with proper coaching can do the deadlift but the op is asking on a forum for advice and is not receiving coaching, so straight away I would ask you if you think they are going to get the best help possible? By your own advice the answer is no.
While deadlifts do have obvious training benefits, doing rows, chins and rdls takes less time to learn and progress on, meaning that they do in fact provide more 'bang for your buck' than poorly performed deadlifts that a person is finding hard to learn. Of course I agree that with proper coaching deads are useful, but as that is not part of the equation here I think erring on the side of simplicity and effectiveness is best.0 -
You realize rows, chin ups, squats and rdls are all compound lifts too? I'll ask you what I asked the other person, what definable 'bang for your buck' does a deadlift have that these others don't have? Do you understand that being able to do a lift properly give you way more 'bang for your buck' than a lift you can't do?
The dogma on this forum is so backwards at times.
You sound like a pretty knowledgeable guy, so I'm confused as to why you are so hell bent on bashing Deadlifts?
Simply stated, Deadlifts and Barbell Squats are the 2 best lifts because they work 1/3+ of the muscles in your body. Rows & Chin Ups don't even come close to this. Row, Chin Ups, and RDLs are considered by most to be "accessory lifts" for a reason.
That said if one is not able to perform a lift properly then they need to learn how to do so and not give up and blow off the lift. I do not believe that the OP "can't do" a Deadlift. In my experiences I've never met someone, with proper coaching, who can't Deadlift. Curious if the OP isn't lifting 135lbs, does she have the barbell properly elevated off the floor? Just a hunch, but I bet that's the issue. All the OP needs to do is post a video and there's many people here, myself included, who could correct her form
Firstly thanks, and thanks for engaging with the issue without appeals to indefinables.
I'm not bashing deadlifts, but I think they are overrated for the non-competitive trainee, I think they are the most difficult lift to recover from, and I think they are deceptively simple to learn but awfully hard to master which leads many people to injure themselves.
You say yourself that people with proper coaching can do the deadlift but the op is asking on a forum for advice and is not receiving coaching, so straight away I would ask you if you think they are going to get the best help possible? By your own advice the answer is no.
While deadlifts do have obvious training benefits, doing rows, chins and rdls takes less time to learn and progress on, meaning that they do in fact provide more 'bang for your buck' than poorly performed deadlifts that a person is finding hard to learn. Of course I agree that with proper coaching deads are useful, but as that is not part of the equation here I think erring on the side of simplicity and effectiveness is best.
what about the clear and obvious benefit of simply learning how to pick things up properly in real day to day life???
A bag of dog food can be 50 pounds- I pick that up with the same set up as I pick up a bar (well without a bar). I'm just not sure I see the trade off to a quick substitute instead of learning how to properly pick up something.0 -
what about the clear and obvious benefit of simply learning how to pick things up properly in real day to day life???
A bag of dog food can be 50 pounds- I pick that up with the same set up as I pick up a bar (well without a bar). I'm just not sure I see the trade off to a quick substitute instead of learning how to properly pick up something.
Do you think if a person can do a barbell row with 50 pounds or more they will be unable to lift a 50 pound bag? How about if they're doing rdl's with more than twice that weight?
Objectively speaking you don't use the same form for a bag as a bar - film yourself next time if you are unsure.
If you just want real life training why not only pick up bags? Get that functional training bang for your buck dawg.
You were wrong about compound lifts btw, it means a lift where more than one joint is moving and more than one muscle group is engaged. Chins rows and rdls certainly count.0 -
what about the clear and obvious benefit of simply learning how to pick things up properly in real day to day life???
A bag of dog food can be 50 pounds- I pick that up with the same set up as I pick up a bar (well without a bar). I'm just not sure I see the trade off to a quick substitute instead of learning how to properly pick up something.
Do you think if a person can do a barbell row with 50 pounds or more they will be unable to lift a 50 pound bag? How about if they're doing rdl's with more than twice that weight?
Objectively speaking you don't use the same form for a bag as a bar - film yourself next time if you are unsure.
If you just want real life training why not only pick up bags? Get that functional training bang for your buck dawg.
You were wrong about compound lifts btw, it means a lift where more than one joint is moving and more than one muscle group is engaged. Chins rows and rdls certainly count.
I do pick them up the same way - only more of a snatch grip. But set up is the same.- I pick up all things off the floor from either an ATG squat or a DL set up- on purpose. work mobility and improve my set up for my lifts. even grocery bags.
And objectively speaking- I'm training for a power lifting competition- so picking up dog food bags isn't going to help me.
My point remains a valid one. And someone who can't be bothered to learn a traditional DL I don't forsee having much luck pulling big numbers with a barbell row- I've seen more people get drug over and or pull their back with a heavy barbell row than a DL.
and what's a chin row???
but yet if I say- learn compound lifts... everyone else who speaks lifting knows I mean squat- bench- OHP and DL.You were wrong about compound lifts btw, it means a lift where more than one joint is moving and more than one muscle group is engaged. Chins rows and rdls certainly count.
why is that?0 -
and what's a chin row???
but yet if I say- learn compound lifts... everyone else who speaks lifting knows I mean squat- bench- OHP and DL.You were wrong about compound lifts btw, it means a lift where more than one joint is moving and more than one muscle group is engaged. Chins rows and rdls certainly count.
why is that?
Because some people do not know the definition of compound lift. It's defined by number of joints used.0 -
I feel dumber after reading this thread.0
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what about the clear and obvious benefit of simply learning how to pick things up properly in real day to day life???
A bag of dog food can be 50 pounds- I pick that up with the same set up as I pick up a bar (well without a bar). I'm just not sure I see the trade off to a quick substitute instead of learning how to properly pick up something.
Do you think if a person can do a barbell row with 50 pounds or more they will be unable to lift a 50 pound bag? How about if they're doing rdl's with more than twice that weight?
Objectively speaking you don't use the same form for a bag as a bar - film yourself next time if you are unsure.
If you just want real life training why not only pick up bags? Get that functional training bang for your buck dawg.
You were wrong about compound lifts btw, it means a lift where more than one joint is moving and more than one muscle group is engaged. Chins rows and rdls certainly count.
I do pick them up the same way - only more of a snatch grip. But set up is the same.- I pick up all things off the floor from either an ATG squat or a DL set up- on purpose. work mobility and improve my set up for my lifts. even grocery bags.
And objectively speaking- I'm training for a power lifting competition- so picking up dog food bags isn't going to help me.
My point remains a valid one. And someone who can't be bothered to learn a traditional DL I don't forsee having much luck pulling big numbers with a barbell row- I've seen more people get drug over and or pull their back with a heavy barbell row than a DL.
and what's a chin row???
but yet if I say- learn compound lifts... everyone else who speaks lifting knows I mean squat- bench- OHP and DL.You were wrong about compound lifts btw, it means a lift where more than one joint is moving and more than one muscle group is engaged. Chins rows and rdls certainly count.
why is that?
If you're using a snatch grip form then objectively you're not using the same form or set up. I would wager your back shape is significantly different in addition but you wouldn't see that yourself when lifting.
The op is not training for powerlifting, maybe address your answer towards their concerns rather than your own pl competition.
You're going to argue over punctuation now? Lol.0 -
Firstly thanks, and thanks for engaging with the issue without appeals to indefinables.
Thank you...and same to you as well.
I'm not bashing deadlifts, but I think they are overrated for the non-competitive trainee, I think they are the most difficult lift to recover from, and I think they are deceptively simple to learn but awfully hard to master which leads many people to injure themselves.
Anyone that is serious about strength training does themselves a great disservice by not incorporating a lift that again, works 1/3 of the muscles mass in your body and is so functional to everyday life. Sure you can do 3-4 other exercises to hit all the muscles a Deadlift does, but that seems like a waste of training time to me. I do agree that Deadlifts are a hard lift to recover from (for the reasons I just stated). I personally have made tremendous gains in my Deadlift strength by doing only one working set/week (this does not include 3-4 warm up sets I do prior to). That's pretty good bang for the buck out of 1 set of 1 exercise. What is cool about "mastering" Deadlifts is you learn to control the extension of lumbar spine, which carries over to so many other aspects of life other than Deadlifting.You say yourself that people with proper coaching can do the deadlift but the op is asking on a forum for advice and is not receiving coaching, so straight away I would ask you if you think they are going to get the best help possible? By your own advice the answer is no.
Agree and that's why I asked her to post a video of her deadlift form so myself and others could try to coach her online.
While deadlifts do have obvious training benefits, doing rows, chins and rdls takes less time to learn and progress on, meaning that they do in fact provide more 'bang for your buck' than poorly performed deadlifts that a person is finding hard to learn. Of course I agree that with proper coaching deads are useful, but as that is not part of the equation here I think erring on the side of simplicity and effectiveness is best.
Doing 3 exercises to replace 1 exercise just doesn't make sense to me. A Bent Over Barbell or Dumbbell Row are fairly simple exercises to learn, whereas a Pendlay Row or RDL are no different than Deadlifts as far as lumbar spine control, so why not just Deadlift which is more effective anyway? Plus the only difference (obviously) between an RDL and a Deadlift is no pull from the floor, which makes them not as functional as a Deadlift IMO. As far as Chin Ups go, most people don't have the strength to do even one, so most people either don't bother with them or do them on the crappy Pull Up/Chin Up "machine". Not saying that's an excuse, it's just reality.
Deadlifts are NOT that hard to learn. Get the set up right and you're golden. Like anything in life, it takes practice and patience...
The Deadlift: Perfect Every Time (Mark Rippetoe)
1. Take your stance, feet a little closer than you think it needs to be and with your toes out more than you like. Your shins should be about one inch from the bar, no more. This places the bar over the mid-foot – the whole foot, not the mid-instep.
2. Take your grip on the bar, leaving your hips up. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
3. Drop your knees forward and out until your shins touch the bar. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR.
4. Hard part: squeeze your chest up as hard as you can. DO NOT MOVE THE BAR. This establishes a "wave" of extension that goes all the way down to the lumbar, and sets the back angle from the top down. DO NOT LOWER YOUR HIPS – LIFT THE CHEST TO SET THE BACK ANGLE.
5. Squeeze the bar off the floor and drag it up your legs in contact with your skin/sweats until it locks out at the top. If you have done the above sequence precisely as described, the bar will come off the ground in a perfectly vertical path. All the slack will have come out of the arms and hamstrings in step 4, the bar will not jerk off the ground, and your back will be in good extension. You will perceive that your hips are too high, but if you have completed step 4 correctly, the scapulas, bar, and mid-foot will be in vertical alignment and the pull will be perfect. The pull will seem "shorter" this way.
Once you're in the proper position, you don't drop your butt -- you lift your chest. Don't lower the hips after you touch the bar with your shins.0 -
try single leg Romanian dead lift resting the back leg and rowing with dumbbells(go as heavy or light as you want ) but work up weight every week by 1kg do 5x3 on each leg then go 5x5 when you can.I find these better than barbell dead lifts.
If you body build then most people would go for the barbell dead lift as you can put more size on,but if you are loosing and tonining then go for the single leg Romanian dead lift.
google or youtube it 0 -
If you're using a snatch grip form then objectively you're not using the same form or set up. I would wager your back shape is significantly different in addition but you wouldn't see that yourself when lifting.
The op is not training for powerlifting, maybe address your answer towards their concerns rather than your own pl competition.
You're going to argue over punctuation now? Lol.
Well- you can't pick up a bag of dog food the exact same way as a bar- because it doesn't have a bar. It's not a true snatch grip because it's not that wide- You seem intelligent enough to know that- so i'm not sure why the detail semantics on this- I thought we were having an interesting discussion on this.
Even though though I just dialed in on power lifting for an upcoming meet- I've always lifted like that- even when younger and playing soccer- all we did were big compound lifts and oly lifting. This isn't my training for that shouting DL are god- I've been dling for years. it's 100% applicable- everyone should learn how to pick stuff up off the ground.
You may not like "most bang for your buck" but that's the reality. OP didn't clearly specify goals- but I don't see a viable reason to quit learning something just because it's hard. There isn't a good reason to NOT learn how to DL outside of medical restrictions.
and no one has said those aren't good lifts either- I do stiff leg DL- good mornings- rows- and pull ups as well. I don't ONLY do deadlifts. But they are accessory lifts.
No- I'm not arguing punctuation with you- I really just wasn't sure if you meant something else or not.
Just because I ask a question doesn't mean I'm challenging you to be hostile. Don't project.
possibly- but does that mean the ENTIRE lifting community doesn't know that? or is possible that perhaps it's the fact that the most common use of the term "compound lift" in the industry is for the big 4 because of the impact to large muscle groups in one lift. I'm not disagreeing that yes- compound by definition means multiple things- but the reality is when someone says compound lift- they aren't talking about a row- they are talking about a squat, dl, bench or OHP.Because some people do not know the definition of compound lift. It's defined by number of joints used.0 -
And as far as level of difficulty- and learning- I taught myself all the way up to a solid 275 DL
It's no harder to learn that than a heavy BB row.
Care and attention to each lift and detail should be across the board- for all heavy lifts. Not just one specifically. All of which can be reasonably learned in a realistic time frame.0 -
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I think claiming that a barbell row or a chin up classify as isolation lifts is just... wrong. And I'm not saying that to be insulting.0 -
I like to do a DL and then curl the bar up to my chin so I can do an OHP to a calf raise and then finish with an overhead squat. Then I jump on a box.0
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crossfit.I like to do a DL and then curl the bar up to my chin so I can do an OHP to a calf raise and then finish with an overhead squat. Then I jump on a box.0 -
I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I think claiming that a barbell row or a chin up classify as isolation lifts is just... wrong. And I'm not saying that to be insulting.
in which we can- that's fine- I'm okay with that. I think we both are both adult enough to have this conversation without being insulting.
I'm not standing here saying they are pure isolation like a concentric curl. I'm well aware of the fact they hit other muscle groups and require multiple moving parts.. A bb row more so than a chin up.... (which is largely bicep) Had we started this conversation saying pull ups instead of chins- but I find a chin up to largely inferior to the pull up if we are talking back and multiple muscles engaged.
But for me- labeling them as compound on the level with the big four just doesn't seem like the same category. They are work- they are hard work. ... but they do not tax the CNS nearly as hard as say heavy dead or squat session will.0 -
But for me- labeling them as compound on the level with the big four just doesn't seem like the same category. They are work- they are hard work. ... but they do not tax the CNS nearly as hard as say heavy dead or squat session will.
I don't disagree with YOUR definition insofar as the big olympic style lifts don't compare with something like a leg press for example, but claiming that they don't fall under the compound movement category is incorrect. The definition is rather standard as being defined by number of joints involved, and since you've already pointed out that "most people" don't know the definition, clarifying it seems important.
Much in the same way that most people think aspartame is highly toxic and I'd also point that out as incorrect regardless of what most people seem to think.0 -
But for me- labeling them as compound on the level with the big four just doesn't seem like the same category. They are work- they are hard work. ... but they do not tax the CNS nearly as hard as say heavy dead or squat session will.
I don't disagree with YOUR definition insofar as the big olympic style lifts don't compare with something like a leg press for example, but claiming that they don't fall under the compound movement category is incorrect. The definition is rather standard as being defined by number of joints involved, and since you've already pointed out that "most people" don't know the definition, clarifying it seems important.
Much in the same way that most people think aspartame is highly toxic and I'd also point that out as incorrect regardless of what most people seem to think.
that's fair enough. I can get on board with that.0 -
You are not wrong and youre not being rude either from what I can see......I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
I think claiming that a barbell row or a chin up classify as isolation lifts is just... wrong. And I'm not saying that to be insulting.0 -
The above lifts both involve movement at the elbow and shoulder. By definition that makes these compound lifts
^^^^^^^^^^^^^0 -
Well- you can't pick up a bag of dog food the exact same way as a bar- because it doesn't have a bar. It's not a true snatch grip because it's not that wide- You seem intelligent enough to know that- so i'm not sure why the detail semantics on this- I thought we were having an interesting discussion on this.
Your grip is different; the weight is lower and distributed differently; in order to lift it your back and shin angles have changed substantially and your centre of gravity is shifted, and your back is rounded even if it is not immediately apparent with a weight that is much lower than your dl max. These are not semantics - if they were semantics then we would deadlift barbells with the bar beyond our toes but we don't. If you don't see how attention to detail in this way has a bearing on this discussion then you are ignoring the foundational point of the whole discussion, much as you ignore that chin ups are a compound exercise.0 -
I feel dumber after reading this thread.
By the time I got to the end I practically forgot how to breathe. Is breathing a compound movement?0 -
Even after 2+ years of weight lifting, my conventional DL form isn't all that great--my back rounds because I have really short arms compared to my legs.
I mostly do sumo DL instead. I do some conventional deadlifting with the bar raised a few inches (I set it on bumper plates or put it on pins in a rack) so that I can keep my back in position.0 -
jealous of everyone that goes to a real gym lol0
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LOLI like to do a DL and then curl the bar up to my chin so I can do an OHP to a calf raise and then finish with an overhead squat. Then I jump on a box.0
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