results of 20year study reveal weight loss is unattainable

Meerataila · June 2014

What in_the_stars posted in the other thread on this issue is far more enlightening to me than rawr rah rah willpower, get some!

"The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is no ordinary test of willpower. This requires extraordinary willpower. Failing to acknowledge that is setting ourselves up for failure.

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said true weight loss was an easy test of willpower. Why do you think it impresses people so much when folks genuinely succeed? Not many do. That is a fact. But do you really think the kind of people that go hmmm i wonder if I have the willpower succeed? No it's the kind of people that simply refuse to fail that succeed. I never said losing weight was easy. I simply said that it was directly in our control.

It's not specifically you I quoted at. It's the general tone of 'toughen up, buttercup, it's easy,' that I find in many posts here. No, it's not easy. Telling people it is doesn't do anyone any favors.

But I thought of something having to do with what others are posting about that 'at least %10' part:

The first 25 pounds or so wasn't that hard. If I'd just lost %10-%12 of my body weight, I bet I would have been able to breeze along eating in moderation and been able to maintain the loss. It was after I hit around %15 of my body weight lost that I started having issues very similar to what was described. So maybe for someone who either doesn't have much to lose or is happy at a higher weight, it isn't that bad. But for me, it's a daily struggle no matter what I try. Whether I'll keep doing it or decide it's not worth it is, of course, all on me, but it bends my nose out of shape when people try to say it's easy.

TheLostMermaid · June 2014

Studies have shown that 100% of people die!...

...guess we should all just give up.

I recommend researching how to achieve your goals instead of reasons to fail.

^This

EvgeniZyntx · June 2014

What in_the_stars posted in the other thread on this issue is far more enlightening to me than rawr rah rah willpower, get some!

"The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is no ordinary test of willpower. This requires extraordinary willpower. Failing to acknowledge that is setting ourselves up for failure.

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said true weight loss was an easy test of willpower. Why do you think it impresses people so much when folks genuinely succeed? Not many do. That is a fact. But do you really think the kind of people that go hmmm i wonder if I have the willpower succeed? No it's the kind of people that simply refuse to fail that succeed. I never said losing weight was easy. I simply said that it was directly in our control.

It's not specifically you I quoted at. It's the general tone of 'toughen up, buttercup, it's easy,' that I find in many posts here. No, it's not easy. Telling people it is doesn't do anyone any favors.

But I thought of something having to do with what others are posting about that 'at least %10' part:

The first 25 pounds or so wasn't that hard. If I'd just lost %10-%12 of my body weight, I bet I would have been able to breeze along eating in moderation and been fine. It was after I hit around %15 of my body weight lost that I started having issues very similar to what was described. So maybe for someone who either doesn't have much to lose or is happy at a higher weight, it isn't that bad. But for me, it's a daily struggle no matter what I try. Whether I'll keep doing it or decide it's not worth it is, of course, all on me, but it bends my nose out of shape when people try to say it's easy.

The nose bending is all your. You own that. If you take offense at the experience of others and their sharing look at how it affects you or step away from the forums.
While it might not be easy for you, there are things to be learned there. And yes, people struggle with a lot of different aspects of health, exercise or fitness. Some people here are struggling with significant health issues that are truly formidable.
And for others, it is easy. And they might have found a few keys that they want to share. Should they be silenced because your nose got out of shape?

I find a small deficit easy, I find tracking relatively easy. I find eating nutritiously very easy. I would find large cuts, knocking out sugar, going vegan/paleo/fruitarian/etc. impossibly hard - so I don't do it. I find doing exercise with some frequency easy but training permanently hard - so I listen to those that find it easy to see what they do, how they approach it and see what I can pick up.

Be offended that weight loss is easy for some or use it to learn something.
If you're offended the month you joined this place - I'm not sure you are going to last long with that.
I do wish you success! :flowerforyou:

Meerataila · June 2014

What in_the_stars posted in the other thread on this issue is far more enlightening to me than rawr rah rah willpower, get some!

"The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is no ordinary test of willpower. This requires extraordinary willpower. Failing to acknowledge that is setting ourselves up for failure.

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said true weight loss was an easy test of willpower. Why do you think it impresses people so much when folks genuinely succeed? Not many do. That is a fact. But do you really think the kind of people that go hmmm i wonder if I have the willpower succeed? No it's the kind of people that simply refuse to fail that succeed. I never said losing weight was easy. I simply said that it was directly in our control.

It's not specifically you I quoted at. It's the general tone of 'toughen up, buttercup, it's easy,' that I find in many posts here. No, it's not easy. Telling people it is doesn't do anyone any favors.

But I thought of something having to do with what others are posting about that 'at least %10' part:

The first 25 pounds or so wasn't that hard. If I'd just lost %10-%12 of my body weight, I bet I would have been able to breeze along eating in moderation and been fine. It was after I hit around %15 of my body weight lost that I started having issues very similar to what was described. So maybe for someone who either doesn't have much to lose or is happy at a higher weight, it isn't that bad. But for me, it's a daily struggle no matter what I try. Whether I'll keep doing it or decide it's not worth it is, of course, all on me, but it bends my nose out of shape when people try to say it's easy.

The nose bending is all your. You own that. If you take offense at the experience of others and their sharing look at how it affects you or step away from the forums.
While it might not be easy for you, there are things to be learned there. And yes, people struggle with a lot of different aspects of health, exercise or fitness. Some people here are struggling with significant health issues that are truly formidable.
And for others, it is easy. And they might have found a few keys that they want to share. Should they be silenced because your nose got out of shape?

I find a small deficit easy, I find tracking relatively easy. I find eating nutritiously very easy. I would find large cuts, knocking out sugar, going vegan/paleo/fruitarian/etc. impossibly hard - so I don't do it. I find doing exercise with some frequency easy but training permanently hard - so I listen to those that find it easy to see what they do, how they approach it and see what I can pick up.

Be offended that weight loss is easy for some or use it to learn something.
If your offended the month you joined this place - I'm not sure you are going to last long with that.
I do wish you success! :flowerforyou:

No, they should not be silenced for saying it's easy. Good for you if it's easy for you to do moderation (it's impossible for me, I even have to watch myself around dried fruit or I'll find the entire family size container gone).

They and you can say it's easy. But I'm going to argue that it's not true. At least in my case and, from what I'm reading here and what the statistics say, a lot of other cases, too.

Which doesn't mean I'm not going to look for tips and tricks I can try for myself that might help make it easier. Because I will and always have.

agrafina · June 2014

Except it isn't 10% loss but at least 10%.
Mean loss might be much higher.

Oh yes, I just think though that seeing 10% as the cutoff for success makes it easier to discount results when you are talking about long-term weight loss of large amounts of weight .In the AJPN study it looks as though mean maintained loss settled to somewhere around 22%.

I actually don't think the odds for weight loss are as dire as the 95% number that is always bandied about which I don't think really has much behind it, but I do think that the majority of people do fail to keep it off based on the trials I've seen. The NWCR data is encouraging, though. I wonder how representative it is. I suspect those who are willing to enroll and continue with the yearly questionnaires are probably significantly different than the population.

madhatter2013 · June 2014

All this study "proves" is that 95% of people are weak.

This 100 times over

lisalsd1 · June 2014

I interpret the original post as meaning: diets don't work. I buy that. However, "lifestyle change" does work, which involves more than going on a diet.

I lost over 60lbs going on 2 decades ago...20 years and 2 kids later, I'm smaller, healthier, and more fit than I was as a teenager. I didn't go on a diet though.

EvgeniZyntx · June 2014

What in_the_stars posted in the other thread on this issue is far more enlightening to me than rawr rah rah willpower, get some!

"The Rockefeller subjects also had a psychiatric syndrome, called semi-starvation neurosis, which had been noticed before in people of normal weight who had been starved. They dreamed of food, they fantasized about food or about breaking their diet. They were anxious and depressed; some had thoughts of suicide. They secreted food in their rooms. And they binged. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/health/08fat.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

This is no ordinary test of willpower. This requires extraordinary willpower. Failing to acknowledge that is setting ourselves up for failure.

You need to stop making assumptions. I never said true weight loss was an easy test of willpower. Why do you think it impresses people so much when folks genuinely succeed? Not many do. That is a fact. But do you really think the kind of people that go hmmm i wonder if I have the willpower succeed? No it's the kind of people that simply refuse to fail that succeed. I never said losing weight was easy. I simply said that it was directly in our control.

It's not specifically you I quoted at. It's the general tone of 'toughen up, buttercup, it's easy,' that I find in many posts here. No, it's not easy. Telling people it is doesn't do anyone any favors.

But I thought of something having to do with what others are posting about that 'at least %10' part:

The first 25 pounds or so wasn't that hard. If I'd just lost %10-%12 of my body weight, I bet I would have been able to breeze along eating in moderation and been fine. It was after I hit around %15 of my body weight lost that I started having issues very similar to what was described. So maybe for someone who either doesn't have much to lose or is happy at a higher weight, it isn't that bad. But for me, it's a daily struggle no matter what I try. Whether I'll keep doing it or decide it's not worth it is, of course, all on me, but it bends my nose out of shape when people try to say it's easy.

The nose bending is all your. You own that. If you take offense at the experience of others and their sharing look at how it affects you or step away from the forums.
While it might not be easy for you, there are things to be learned there. And yes, people struggle with a lot of different aspects of health, exercise or fitness. Some people here are struggling with significant health issues that are truly formidable.
And for others, it is easy. And they might have found a few keys that they want to share. Should they be silenced because your nose got out of shape?

I find a small deficit easy, I find tracking relatively easy. I find eating nutritiously very easy. I would find large cuts, knocking out sugar, going vegan/paleo/fruitarian/etc. impossibly hard - so I don't do it. I find doing exercise with some frequency easy but training permanently hard - so I listen to those that find it easy to see what they do, how they approach it and see what I can pick up.

Be offended that weight loss is easy for some or use it to learn something.
If your offended the month you joined this place - I'm not sure you are going to last long with that.
I do wish you success! :flowerforyou:

No, they should not be silenced for saying it's easy. Good for you if it's easy for you to do moderation (it's impossible for me, I even have to watch myself around dried fruit or I'll find the entire family size container gone).

They and you can say it's easy. But I'm going to argue that it's not true. At least in my case and, from what I'm reading here and what the statistics say, a lot of other cases, too.

Which doesn't mean I'm not going to look for tips and tricks I can try for myself that might help make it easier. Because I will and always have.

I love dried fruit - 3 years ago I would easily eat half a kilo of it in one sitting (usually on a biking trip with dire dire dire consequences). I still eat a lot. In this case my control mechanism is two fold, I either keep the pantry full or empty of certain items. If it's full I don't fear I'm going to run out, or empty if I can't handle that. I know I can't eat too much dried figs or prunes or else - I like those so they"ve replaced dried apricots and mango.

Moderation strategies are built over time and with relation to new food attitudes. Learning that I'd rather have a banana vs a chocolate bar (same fullness for me but 1/3 the calories) means that I'll eat more lower calorie dense food and still feel full...)

My shopping practices changed slowly but most of all my attitude to what I wanted to achieve with my body, what fitness level I want, what I'm doing to achieve it and the positive reinforcement that I get from that - that is what I mean by easy.

You can believe 5% or 30% or 40% success rate (there are studies for each) or not care about that and focus on how you are making things better for yourself (and not just about weight loss, btw). I know that sound a bit kumbaya, but it's true.

ETA: Dried fig day today.

tycho_mx · June 2014

All this study "proves" is that 95% of people are weak.

This 100 times over

Not "weak" in my opinion. Simply not interested enough in making the commitments required, for various reasons. I call this shifting of priorities. It it takes work, and is not a priority (I'm not arguing whether it should be or not, but look at the people arguing or complaining about the hassle of measuring their food - simply, the hassle outweighs the "cost" of measuring because it's not that important for them. i.e. not a priority). People get other stuff to focus, their careers, their families, etc.

I have successfully lost more than 25 lb. from my heaviest. I wasn't unhealthy, I wasn't obese. I did have 20% body fat. My lifestyle change was exercise - I had a pretty sedentary late adolescence, and only started working out diligently when I reached 18. Even then I was still not that interested in anything more than pick up games and weights until I joined a varsity team at 20.

Then I became very fond of competition, and weight management became important for my athletic aspirations. So it was a lifestyle change about 18 years ago, when I weighed 200+ lb Vs. 165-170 right now. I still fluctuate a lot, up to 180 in the winter with less exercise and no races for motivation. But it is important to me, so I do the work - even if weight management is not the primary motivation.

EDIT - just looked at the post above. There's some foods that are absolutely unmanageable for me, like mixed nuts. I'll eat a 5 lb bag in less than a week. I certainly have work to do and I'm "weak" resisting them. So I become smart: only buy small amounts for a single sitting, not very often.

Meerataila · June 2014

I love dried fruit - 3 years ago I would easily eat half a kilo of it in one sitting (usually on a biking trip with dire dire dire consequences). I still eat a lot. In this case my control mechanism is two fold, I either keep the pantry full or empty of certain items. If it's full I don't fear I'm going to run out, or empty if I can't handle that. I know I can't eat too much dried figs or prunes or else - I like those so they"ve replaced dried apricots and mango.

Moderation strategies are built over time and with relation to new food attitudes. Learning that I'd rather have a banana vs a chocolate bar (same fullness for me but 1/3 the calories) means that I'll eat more lower calorie dense food and still feel full...)

My shopping practices changed slowly but most of all my attitude to what I wanted to achieve with my body, what fitness level I want, what I'm doing to achieve it and the positive reinforcement that I get from that - that is what I mean by easy.

You can believe 5% or 30% or 40% success rate (there are studies for each) or not care about that and focus on how you are making things better for yourself (and not just about weight loss, btw). I know that sound a bit kumbaya, but it's true.

ETA: Dried fig day today.

Now this is good info. And I haven't tried dried figs. Not even sure I've ever eaten one. It might be time to add them, carefully. I am learning that I can control my sugar cravings better if I have enough roughage with it. I don't eat raisins by the handful (unless I cave) I put them in with some onions, mushrooms, beans, etc. And that I can cope with. If I chopped up a candybar and threw it in a salad, I'm pretty sure that wouldn't go so well!

_KitKat_ · June 2014

When people say weight loss is "Easy" they are talking "weight loss" not necessarily all of the emotional and/or health issues other individuals deal with. The point being once someone has dealt with and is working to correct emotional weight gain issues, the actual act of losing weight is EASY. This is normally directed at the people claiming weight loss is difficult or impossible, those people are seeming to either use it as an excuse to not start, slack off or failure in the end. Weight loss is numbers and exercising control over ones life and health, nobody that says it is easy is ever referring to the issues that led to individuals being in the situation that they need to lose weight.

I do think many people grasp at the idea that actual weight loss (the physical numbers game) is near impossible to provide themselves an external cause for their issues instead of facing the cause of the weight head on. The question is not how do I lose weight, then I will be happy and emotionally balanced, the cause will not magically disappear. The first question before someone even starts is "WHY?" then getting help if needed with the why, only then can someone then start on the repairs needed because of the damage caused by the underlying issue.

Example, if you are a emotional binge eater, that will not stop because you lose weight and did it slow so you went a year without binging but if you address why you binge and work on a plan to correct this behavior, then set up a weight loss plan. The weight loss will be easier to maintain because the factor that made you fat you have eradicated. The weight loss part is easy, the emotional binging recovery was the hard part.

I also think starting to deal with issues in your life that caused harm (for most that is what a lifestyle change is) with a negative outlook of "look at these statistics" is counter productive and relavent to that individuals underlying issues. It is a product of a negative feedback cycle and does have poor intonations regarding that person success.

ETA I do think it is valid that for some the underlying issues are too deepseeded in their mental makeup to ever be completely dealt with, for those individuals the issue would need to be controlled which is a harder task and not in my mind a lifestyle change. Exercising complete control over a negative issue for life is much harder than carrying on with ones healthy habits without current issues.

Iwishyouwell · June 2014

The assumption isn't that they all did fads, cleanses etc (at least not as far as I can see)...... the assumption is that they "went on a diet" then "went off their diet" and that they didn't make a conscious effort to make their diet sustainable or put much effort into the maintenance phase of dieting. The study was on a random sample of joe public......... when you consider people who diet in general... how many of them put in the effort to make sustainable lifestyle changes as opposed to looking for quick fixes, or even if they diet with sensible deficits and exercise, how many "go on a diet" then revert back to their old ways? There's a whole load of different mistakes being made by people (cleanses and fads being one of a whole range)..... no way is it the case that 95% of people are doomed to gain back weight no matter what they do. I don't believe that for one minute. For people who don't want to be in that statistic, they need to identify all the things that yo-yo dieters are doing wrong and avoid them, and identify what successful long-term maintainers are doing right, and do those things instead.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree, and the reason why I'm having trouble embracing all this "lifestyle change" business.

I think it's become quite common for people to bandy about the declaration "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change!!!". Yet on this board alone, an extremely skewed subsection of successful people who are doing it the "right way", the failures are plentiful. The maintenance section alone spins a sad yarn of constant failure. I think a lot of people call it a "lifestyle change" in name, but eventually, whether in the course of months, a year, or a few years, revert right back to old habits.

I suppose, until I see some concrete evidence to the contrary, I do not assume that well intentioned lifestyle changers are having considerably greater long term maintenance success, beyond perhaps maintaining relatively small losses, than anyone else.

I think, at this point, it seems more like a lovely dream, a comfortable weight loss myth, that standing up and saying "I've made a lifestyle change!" does much.

There is the gnawing feeling, and at this point we're all dealing in beliefs and anecdotal evidence mainly, that the overwhelming majority of people doom themselves eventually to regain most, if not all, of the weight. Yes, even the ones who did it the "right" way.

amandzor · June 2014

_KitKat_ · June 2014

The assumption isn't that they all did fads, cleanses etc (at least not as far as I can see)...... the assumption is that they "went on a diet" then "went off their diet" and that they didn't make a conscious effort to make their diet sustainable or put much effort into the maintenance phase of dieting. The study was on a random sample of joe public......... when you consider people who diet in general... how many of them put in the effort to make sustainable lifestyle changes as opposed to looking for quick fixes, or even if they diet with sensible deficits and exercise, how many "go on a diet" then revert back to their old ways? There's a whole load of different mistakes being made by people (cleanses and fads being one of a whole range)..... no way is it the case that 95% of people are doomed to gain back weight no matter what they do. I don't believe that for one minute. For people who don't want to be in that statistic, they need to identify all the things that yo-yo dieters are doing wrong and avoid them, and identify what successful long-term maintainers are doing right, and do those things instead.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree, and the reason why I'm having trouble embracing all this "lifestyle change" business.

I think it's become quite common for people to bandy about the declaration "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change!!!". Yet on this board alone, an extremely skewed subsection of successful people who are doing it the "right way", the failures are plentiful. The maintenance section alone spins a sad yarn of constant failure. I think a lot of people call it a "lifestyle change" in name, but eventually, whether in the course of months, a year, or a few years, revert right back to old habits.

I suppose, until I see some concrete evidence to the contrary, I do not assume that well intentioned lifestyle changers are having considerably greater long term maintenance success, beyond perhaps maintaining relatively small losses, than anyone else.

I think, at this point, it seems more like a lovely dream, a comfortable weight loss myth, that standing up and saying "I've made a lifestyle change!" does much.

There is the gnawing feeling, and at this point we're all dealing in beliefs and anecdotal evidence mainly, that the overwhelming majority of people doom themselves eventually to regain most, if not all, of the weight. Yes, even the ones who did it the "right" way.

@Iwishyouwell, you have many posts and a topic about this. I think you are being held up on the language people are using. The fact is just because someone calls it a lifestyle change does not mean it is one, they may wish it was or hope but if they have unresolved issues, it is not one. The people that are successful did make a lifestyle change, they dealt with underlying issues, taught themselves the skills they were lacking, formed healthy habits (by definition a habit is subconscious behavior and difficult to change), and did it. Those that failed or struggle are missing one of the components of an actual life change. The fact is maybe the chances of longterm success are rare but that is because by nature humans take the easy way, and weight loss the physical act is easy. The hard part is correcting and dealing with the cause and fixing the cause is the lifestyle change.

*Lifestyle change works

*Calling something a lifestyle change does not signify success unless an actual change occurred.

*You are lumping the 2 together, if I had a nail in my tire I could fill my tire with air and most likely it will not be flat for a few days, I did not change my tire though so the underlying issue of the nail will flatten my tire again......but if I deal with the nail and have the mechanic plug the hole, it may last but it may not.....I dealt with the nail but I only patched the hole, it is still there. Now if I changed my tire, that old tire is irrelevant because I made a change.

AlliBarlik · June 2014

Well!

Guess we'll just have to prove that study wrong, won't we?

YES!

BonworthVonFattyPants · June 2014

This study is the battle-cry of the entire HAES movement.

I have no problem with the study. I'm sure it's accurate. I would bet that 95% of us have failed at at least one diet after significant weight loss.

But, and this is why I despise what the HAES has become, it's no excuse to ignore every other study, thousands of them, that show the negative consequences of obesity. Instead they say "science says I can't loss weight" and give up.

Oh - but it gets worse. They then simply declare themselves healthy.

You know ... because HAES.

The HAES basics - incorporating healthy diet and activities into your life - is awesome. But as soon as it attached itself to the FA movement it morphed into a circle jerk of people encouraging slow, painful, unnecessary death.

And when you start reading the blogs and articles it all comes back to this one study.

Meerataila · June 2014

This study is the battle-cry of the entire HAES movement.

I have no problem with the study. I'm sure it's accurate. I would bet that 95% of us have failed at at least one diet after significant weight loss.

But, and this is why I despise what the HAES has become, it's no excuse to ignore every other study, thousands of them, that show the negative consequences of obesity. Instead they say "science says I can't loss weight" and give up.

Oh - but it gets worse. They then simply declare themselves healthy.

You know ... because HAES.

The HAES basics - incorporating healthy diet and activities into your life - is awesome. But as soon as it attached itself to the FA movement it morphed into a circle jerk of people encouraging slow, painful, unnecessary death.

And when you start reading the blogs and articles it all comes back to this one study.

I agree, there are problems with HAES. I think a lot of it is backlash against the hatred heaped on overweight people by those who want to wrap their attacks in personal responsibility speech (ironically much of this virulent, prejudicial self-righteousness comes from a long time radio host who has struggled with his own weight all his life).

But they have a point when they touch on cure worse than the disease issues. Like yo-yo dieting as opposed to being perhaps just moderately overweight.

Iwishyouwell · June 2014

The assumption isn't that they all did fads, cleanses etc (at least not as far as I can see)...... the assumption is that they "went on a diet" then "went off their diet" and that they didn't make a conscious effort to make their diet sustainable or put much effort into the maintenance phase of dieting. The study was on a random sample of joe public......... when you consider people who diet in general... how many of them put in the effort to make sustainable lifestyle changes as opposed to looking for quick fixes, or even if they diet with sensible deficits and exercise, how many "go on a diet" then revert back to their old ways? There's a whole load of different mistakes being made by people (cleanses and fads being one of a whole range)..... no way is it the case that 95% of people are doomed to gain back weight no matter what they do. I don't believe that for one minute. For people who don't want to be in that statistic, they need to identify all the things that yo-yo dieters are doing wrong and avoid them, and identify what successful long-term maintainers are doing right, and do those things instead.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree, and the reason why I'm having trouble embracing all this "lifestyle change" business.

I think it's become quite common for people to bandy about the declaration "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change!!!". Yet on this board alone, an extremely skewed subsection of successful people who are doing it the "right way", the failures are plentiful. The maintenance section alone spins a sad yarn of constant failure. I think a lot of people call it a "lifestyle change" in name, but eventually, whether in the course of months, a year, or a few years, revert right back to old habits.

I suppose, until I see some concrete evidence to the contrary, I do not assume that well intentioned lifestyle changers are having considerably greater long term maintenance success, beyond perhaps maintaining relatively small losses, than anyone else.

I think, at this point, it seems more like a lovely dream, a comfortable weight loss myth, that standing up and saying "I've made a lifestyle change!" does much.

There is the gnawing feeling, and at this point we're all dealing in beliefs and anecdotal evidence mainly, that the overwhelming majority of people doom themselves eventually to regain most, if not all, of the weight. Yes, even the ones who did it the "right" way.

@Iwishyouwell, you have many posts and a topic about this. I think you are being held up on the language people are using. The fact is just because someone calls it a lifestyle change does not mean it is one, they may wish it was or hope but if they have unresolved issues, it is not one. The people that are successful did make a lifestyle change, they dealt with underlying issues, taught themselves the skills they were lacking, formed healthy habits (by definition a habit is subconscious behavior and difficult to change), and did it. Those that failed or struggle are missing one of the components of an actual life change. The fact is maybe the chances of longterm success are rare but that is because by nature humans take the easy way, and weight loss the physical act is easy. The hard part is correcting and dealing with the cause and fixing the cause is the lifestyle change.

*Lifestyle change works

*Calling something a lifestyle change does not signify success unless an actual change occurred.

*You are lumping the 2 together, if I had a nail in my tire I could fill my tire with air and most likely it will not be flat for a few days, I did not change my tire though so the underlying issue of the nail will flatten my tire again......but if I deal with the nail and have the mechanic plug the hole, it may last but it may not.....I dealt with the nail but I only patched the hole, it is still there. Now if I changed my tire, that old tire is irrelevant because I made a change.

Well no, it's actually more that you absolutely finally got my entire point. And stated it quite beautifully.

There is a reason I keep putting "lifestyle change", as it's commonly defined and pushed on MFP, in quotation marks.

Me thinks a lot of people don't denote the difference between a lived lifestyle changed and a declared "lifestyle change".

lessismoreohio · June 2014

They'll need to tell that to the tens of thousands of people on MFP who have lost the weight and are keeping it off. Sounds as if the study has a hidden agenda.

Annie_01 · June 2014

The assumption isn't that they all did fads, cleanses etc (at least not as far as I can see)...... the assumption is that they "went on a diet" then "went off their diet" and that they didn't make a conscious effort to make their diet sustainable or put much effort into the maintenance phase of dieting. The study was on a random sample of joe public......... when you consider people who diet in general... how many of them put in the effort to make sustainable lifestyle changes as opposed to looking for quick fixes, or even if they diet with sensible deficits and exercise, how many "go on a diet" then revert back to their old ways? There's a whole load of different mistakes being made by people (cleanses and fads being one of a whole range)..... no way is it the case that 95% of people are doomed to gain back weight no matter what they do. I don't believe that for one minute. For people who don't want to be in that statistic, they need to identify all the things that yo-yo dieters are doing wrong and avoid them, and identify what successful long-term maintainers are doing right, and do those things instead.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree, and the reason why I'm having trouble embracing all this "lifestyle change" business.

I think it's become quite common for people to bandy about the declaration "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change!!!". Yet on this board alone, an extremely skewed subsection of successful people who are doing it the "right way", the failures are plentiful. The maintenance section alone spins a sad yarn of constant failure. I think a lot of people call it a "lifestyle change" in name, but eventually, whether in the course of months, a year, or a few years, revert right back to old habits.

I suppose, until I see some concrete evidence to the contrary, I do not assume that well intentioned lifestyle changers are having considerably greater long term maintenance success, beyond perhaps maintaining relatively small losses, than anyone else.

I think, at this point, it seems more like a lovely dream, a comfortable weight loss myth, that standing up and saying "I've made a lifestyle change!" does much.

There is the gnawing feeling, and at this point we're all dealing in beliefs and anecdotal evidence mainly, that the overwhelming majority of people doom themselves eventually to regain most, if not all, of the weight. Yes, even the ones who did it the "right" way.

@Iwishyouwell, you have many posts and a topic about this. I think you are being held up on the language people are using. The fact is just because someone calls it a lifestyle change does not mean it is one, they may wish it was or hope but if they have unresolved issues, it is not one. The people that are successful did make a lifestyle change, they dealt with underlying issues, taught themselves the skills they were lacking, formed healthy habits (by definition a habit is subconscious behavior and difficult to change), and did it. Those that failed or struggle are missing one of the components of an actual life change. The fact is maybe the chances of longterm success are rare but that is because by nature humans take the easy way, and weight loss the physical act is easy. The hard part is correcting and dealing with the cause and fixing the cause is the lifestyle change.

*Lifestyle change works

*Calling something a lifestyle change does not signify success unless an actual change occurred.

*You are lumping the 2 together, if I had a nail in my tire I could fill my tire with air and most likely it will not be flat for a few days, I did not change my tire though so the underlying issue of the nail will flatten my tire again......but if I deal with the nail and have the mechanic plug the hole, it may last but it may not.....I dealt with the nail but I only patched the hole, it is still there. Now if I changed my tire, that old tire is irrelevant because I made a change.

I get your analogy...but...buying a new tire is not a "lifestyle".

The word "diet" has become a "dirty word"...only to be replace by the word "lifestyle"...which has become a "cliche"...and honestly in the end holds little meaning. Look how often it is thrown around just on MFP alone.

My "lifestyle" has changed dramatically in the last 20 years...not just once...but several times. Through it all...I gained weight...enough said about that.

Nothing changed until I learned to care about myself...want more for myself...until I wanted to enjoy the "lifestyle" that I already had.

To make a long story short...

I will resolve old issues...learn to love myself...learn to believe that I am worth it and all that life has to offer me...in order to successfully accomplish that.

Will losing the weight and maintaining affect my lifestyle...sure it will...it will make it easier to do the things that I have always wanted to do.

Maybe we have different definitions of "lifestyle"...

Meerataila · June 2014

They'll need to tell that to the tens of thousands of people on MFP who have lost the weight and are keeping it off. Sounds as if the study has a hidden agenda.

Source for those numbers? And I really doubt the people doing this 20 year study are selling protein shakes or exercise DVDs. Now if there were a longterm diet aid that addressed the issues in this study, then I'd be mightily suspicious. But since there isn't, what agenda could they possibly have?

Annie_01 · June 2014

They'll need to tell that to the tens of thousands of people on MFP who have lost the weight and are keeping it off. Sounds as if the study has a hidden agenda.

Tens of thousands of people???

Does MFP track its users? Past and present?

Many people have disappeared from this site just since I have been here. We don't know if they kept the weight off or not. I do know that there are many that show back up saying..."I'm Back". Some of those people start a thread about having lost and regained over time.

As much as I am looking forward to reaching my goal...I also dread it. I think the real work begins then...keeping the weight off. I am honest enough with myself that I know if I don't continue to monitor...I will gradually gain some or all of it back.

Iwishyouwell · June 2014

As much as I am looking forward to reaching my goal...I also dread it. I think the real work begins then...keeping the weight off. I am honest enough with myself that I know if I don't continue to monitor...I will gradually gain some or all of it back.

Of course there is a major selection bias going on here, but the Goal: Maintaining Weight section of this forum speaks very well to your point.

neandermagnon · June 2014

The assumption isn't that they all did fads, cleanses etc (at least not as far as I can see)...... the assumption is that they "went on a diet" then "went off their diet" and that they didn't make a conscious effort to make their diet sustainable or put much effort into the maintenance phase of dieting. The study was on a random sample of joe public......... when you consider people who diet in general... how many of them put in the effort to make sustainable lifestyle changes as opposed to looking for quick fixes, or even if they diet with sensible deficits and exercise, how many "go on a diet" then revert back to their old ways? There's a whole load of different mistakes being made by people (cleanses and fads being one of a whole range)..... no way is it the case that 95% of people are doomed to gain back weight no matter what they do. I don't believe that for one minute. For people who don't want to be in that statistic, they need to identify all the things that yo-yo dieters are doing wrong and avoid them, and identify what successful long-term maintainers are doing right, and do those things instead.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree, and the reason why I'm having trouble embracing all this "lifestyle change" business.

I think it's become quite common for people to bandy about the declaration "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change!!!". Yet on this board alone, an extremely skewed subsection of successful people who are doing it the "right way", the failures are plentiful. The maintenance section alone spins a sad yarn of constant failure. I think a lot of people call it a "lifestyle change" in name, but eventually, whether in the course of months, a year, or a few years, revert right back to old habits.

I suppose, until I see some concrete evidence to the contrary, I do not assume that well intentioned lifestyle changers are having considerably greater long term maintenance success, beyond perhaps maintaining relatively small losses, than anyone else.

I think, at this point, it seems more like a lovely dream, a comfortable weight loss myth, that standing up and saying "I've made a lifestyle change!" does much.

There is the gnawing feeling, and at this point we're all dealing in beliefs and anecdotal evidence mainly, that the overwhelming majority of people doom themselves eventually to regain most, if not all, of the weight. Yes, even the ones who did it the "right" way.

when I say "do it the right way" - that includes continuing to do it the right way for life... otherwise they're doing it the wrong way, i.e. reverting back to old habits.

I don't believe that people (barring maybe some medical issues... maybe...) are doomed to a lifetime of obesity. I believe that it is possible to get lean and stay lean for life... and that the right approach, during dieting **and continuing it during actual maintenance** (emphasis on that bit), will prevent fat regain. Will everyone do that? No, of course not, because some people will get lazy and slip back into their old ways. Is it within people's control? Yes, absolutely. (again, possibly barring some medical issues)

I also don't believe in "naturally thin" - so-called "naturally thin" people are just better at portion control and often they're very physically active too. They're doing things (albeit not consciously) that are keeping them thin. People who become obese, whether once or many times, are not doing those things, and so to get thin and stay thin for life, they need to do those things for life.... we're in a society that makes it very easy to get obese - freely available food delivered to your door, sedentary jobs, cars to drive you everywhere.... nearly everyone needs to make some kind of effort to stay thin, so-called naturally thin people may not be making this effort consciously - to them it may be "omg I can't take another bite, I'm full!" and "I love walking/running/cycling/sport/etc I'm going to do this a lot" and "omg I can't just sit on the sofa all day I'll get cabin fever, I have to go for a walk" etc... but they are still proactively doing things that make them stay thin. So yes, people who become obese need to learn how to do these things, and maybe for many it needs to be more of a conscious effort, as in "I have to watch my portion sizes" "I have to log my food" "I have to work out three times a week" - the successful maintainers are the ones that keep on doing what's necessary to stay lean, the ones who gain the fat back are those who stop doing those things.... that's what people are getting at with the "lifestyle change" thing - if it's not permanent, if you revert back, then it wasn't a lifestyle change, and you're not "doing it right"

Unknown · June 2014

This content has been removed.

Sabine_Stroehm · June 2014

They'll need to tell that to the tens of thousands of people on MFP who have lost the weight and are keeping it off. Sounds as if the study has a hidden agenda.

I'd like to hear from those 10s of thousands. Only time will tell if fitness apps aid in longterm success. Only time will tell if having a calorie counter with you 24/7 will aid in longterm success (folks counted calories long before MFP). And only time will tell if the ever popular IIFYM will yield long term success for the average MFP user. We just don't have that info yet.

_KitKat_ · June 2014

The assumption isn't that they all did fads, cleanses etc (at least not as far as I can see)...... the assumption is that they "went on a diet" then "went off their diet" and that they didn't make a conscious effort to make their diet sustainable or put much effort into the maintenance phase of dieting. The study was on a random sample of joe public......... when you consider people who diet in general... how many of them put in the effort to make sustainable lifestyle changes as opposed to looking for quick fixes, or even if they diet with sensible deficits and exercise, how many "go on a diet" then revert back to their old ways? There's a whole load of different mistakes being made by people (cleanses and fads being one of a whole range)..... no way is it the case that 95% of people are doomed to gain back weight no matter what they do. I don't believe that for one minute. For people who don't want to be in that statistic, they need to identify all the things that yo-yo dieters are doing wrong and avoid them, and identify what successful long-term maintainers are doing right, and do those things instead.

And this is where we fundamentally disagree, and the reason why I'm having trouble embracing all this "lifestyle change" business.

I think it's become quite common for people to bandy about the declaration "It's not a diet, it's a lifestyle change!!!". Yet on this board alone, an extremely skewed subsection of successful people who are doing it the "right way", the failures are plentiful. The maintenance section alone spins a sad yarn of constant failure. I think a lot of people call it a "lifestyle change" in name, but eventually, whether in the course of months, a year, or a few years, revert right back to old habits.

I suppose, until I see some concrete evidence to the contrary, I do not assume that well intentioned lifestyle changers are having considerably greater long term maintenance success, beyond perhaps maintaining relatively small losses, than anyone else.

I think, at this point, it seems more like a lovely dream, a comfortable weight loss myth, that standing up and saying "I've made a lifestyle change!" does much.

There is the gnawing feeling, and at this point we're all dealing in beliefs and anecdotal evidence mainly, that the overwhelming majority of people doom themselves eventually to regain most, if not all, of the weight. Yes, even the ones who did it the "right" way.

@Iwishyouwell, you have many posts and a topic about this. I think you are being held up on the language people are using. The fact is just because someone calls it a lifestyle change does not mean it is one, they may wish it was or hope but if they have unresolved issues, it is not one. The people that are successful did make a lifestyle change, they dealt with underlying issues, taught themselves the skills they were lacking, formed healthy habits (by definition a habit is subconscious behavior and difficult to change), and did it. Those that failed or struggle are missing one of the components of an actual life change. The fact is maybe the chances of longterm success are rare but that is because by nature humans take the easy way, and weight loss the physical act is easy. The hard part is correcting and dealing with the cause and fixing the cause is the lifestyle change.

*Lifestyle change works

*Calling something a lifestyle change does not signify success unless an actual change occurred.

*You are lumping the 2 together, if I had a nail in my tire I could fill my tire with air and most likely it will not be flat for a few days, I did not change my tire though so the underlying issue of the nail will flatten my tire again......but if I deal with the nail and have the mechanic plug the hole, it may last but it may not.....I dealt with the nail but I only patched the hole, it is still there. Now if I changed my tire, that old tire is irrelevant because I made a change.

I get your analogy...but...buying a new tire is not a "lifestyle".

The word "diet" has become a "dirty word"...only to be replace by the word "lifestyle"...which has become a "cliche"...and honestly in the end holds little meaning. Look how often it is thrown around just on MFP alone.

My "lifestyle" has changed dramatically in the last 20 years...not just once...but several times. Through it all...I gained weight...enough said about that.

Nothing changed until I learned to care about myself...want more for myself...until I wanted to enjoy the "lifestyle" that I already had.

To make a long story short...

I will resolve old issues...learn to love myself...learn to believe that I am worth it and all that life has to offer me...in order to successfully accomplish that.

Will losing the weight and maintaining affect my lifestyle...sure it will...it will make it easier to do the things that I have always wanted to do.

Maybe we have different definitions of "lifestyle"...

The tire analogy was to demonstrate what change is, it is complete without a way to revert. If able to revert the main issue was not truly changed, like the plug that removed the nail but kept the hole and just putting air in as a crash diet.

I am viewing " lifestyle change" lifestyle as an ingrained aspect of that persons life, demeanor and way of handling life....not lifestyle like economics, house, social ect. The change part I view as a change...out with the old, in with the new....the old way is gone making reverting not possible. Now can someone make a new change in the future, sure but changing the fundamentals of yourself is not an easy task, it is usually done by crisis or extreme will and could be for either bad or good. Someone who "changes" often, I would have to question whether they actually made these changes or kept the fundamentals and only altered the surface.

@Iwishyouwell, you said I proved your point but I do not see how a false declaration is the equivalent to a truthful and accurate declaration. The one can not be used to dismiss the reasonability and success of the other. Someone claiming not to be an alcoholic because they barely ever drink and someone claiming not to be an alcoholic but needs to drink daily and thinks they could go without, but have never tried are extremely different. The person making the false claim does not disprove the person making a truthful declaration. An outsider can not say "see everyone that says they are not an alcoholic, is in fact one" the logic of this makes no sense.

Lifestyle change = works

False declaration of a lifestyle change = personal delusion and lying to ones self, even if having the best of intentions.

That is why studies on this could not be done, you can not have variables of mental health, and lump these people all under one umbrella. Obesity is a symptom, the person must change.

Honestly I think this entire topic and articles is not arguable, the interpretation of the nuances of the terms used and the lumping of a wide range of issues and mental health issues as the same because they share a common symptom (excess weight) seems to me the same as linking cancer, heart disease, asthma all under "sick people what are the odds of survival".

Look at any health issue, fix the cause become healthy. Ignore the issue and treat the symptoms...then just hope to get better.

Being proactive is probably the most common trait successful people have. These people do not do something " hoping it will work", they put their best effort forward and work for it, they also start anything expecting to succeed. It really is all about each persons outlook on life and their self worth. Personally I do not expect the worst and hope for the best, I find an attitude like that defeatist. I prefer making my mind up and accomplishing my goals, I have reasonable expectations of myself and fully intend to accomplish any goals I work towards.

ETA

Of course there is a major selection bias going on here, but the Goal: Maintaining Weight section of this forum speaks very well to your point.

Pointing to the maintenance section is not always relevant either, the majority of topics posted on forum are for help. So it stands the reason that the majority of posts would be struggling people and the people that are doing just fine are A:going about their business and/or B: offering help in that forum. The success section would be a better guide, especially the people who posted a couple years ago, and then looking to see where they are now. Even that though would not be a high percentage of successes though. The majority of my most successful friends on here are too shy to post in the success thread, but they are longterm maintaining. Most don't even look at it that way, they instead are always looking to better their health, body or compete. That must me another common trait, always seeking the betterment of ones self.

results of 20year study reveal weight loss is unattainable

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