Building Muscle in Calorie Deficit

Ella1882
Ella1882 Posts: 27
in Fitness and Exercise
I apologize if this has been discussed before -- I went back through several pages of conversations, but this looks like a busy board -- but does anyone know whether it's actually true that you can't build muscle in calorie deficit? I could see that being true for very fit people who already have low body fat levels and heavy musculature, but what about people who are starting from very low points of muscle development?

E.g., My strength level is currently low...I have soft thighs and am still working on my first pull-up (heck, I'm still working on being able to hang for longer than 1 sec). Building some muscle is my first priority. But I'd also like to lose about 10 pounds of softness in my belly and inner thighs, so I don't love the idea of eating at a calorie surplus.

If you're starting out from a pretty low level of muscle mass, can you build some muscle while eating at a deficit or at a maintenance level?

Thanks!

Replies

  • Unknown
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  • sculli123
    sculli123 Posts: 1,221 Member
    It's a lot easier putting on muscle in an excess of calories which is why bodybuilders do a bulking period during their off season. But if you're untrained or have had a layoff, you will still see some increases in muscle while in a deficit if you're lifting weights and eating adequate protein etc. Just not as much.
  • SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish
    SoLongAndThanksForAllTheFish Posts: 831 Member
    If you are that untrained and muscle building is your highest priority, eat at at least maintenance and strength train, do not cut.
  • Ella1882
    Ella1882 Posts: 27
    Thanks!
    But if you're untrained or have had a layoff, you will still see some increases in muscle while in a deficit if you're lifting weights and eating adequate protein etc. Just not as much.

    Untrained would definitely describe me. :) I've been lifting and eating normally for about a month, and have seen tiny improvements in strength, but nothing to write home about yet. I feel like I should start cutting back calories a little, but I didn't want to nix the benefits of my strength training by doing so. If I'm understanding you guys correctly, though, as long as I'm comfortable with slower muscle growth, I can eat at a small deficit. It sounds, though, like maintenance levels remain my best option.

    I haven't tracked my protein closely, but I eat nuts and beans with whole grains every day, and meat at least a few times a week, so I've assumed I'm getting plenty of protein. I'm not large (5'4", 131 lbs), so my protein requirements are only about 50 grams/day. That's a good point, though. I'll run the numbers on my protein intake to make sure I'm at least hitting 50 grams.

    I'm okay with slow change...my goal is to make life-style changes toward strength and fitness rather than see quick, dramatic results, but I didn't want to undercut the efficacy of my workouts.
  • jimmmer
    jimmmer Posts: 3,515 Member
    Just a FYI, you'll probably want double that amount of protein.

    You'll also struggle to put on appreciable muscle in a calorie deficit. Especially as a female, who get the short end of the stick in the muscle building stakes, unfortunately.

    You can continue to improve your strength, maintain your existing muscle mass and shred off some fat whilst lifting in a calorie deficit with adequate protein. Initial strength gains from lifting come from increased neuromuscular efficiency and vastly improving form rather than increased muscle mass.
  • hmadrone
    hmadrone Posts: 129 Member
    Hi Ella,

    If you are overweight by more than a few pounds and untrained, you can definitely build muscle at a deficit. There's no need for a person who is already heavy to bulk up. I'd suggest a modest calorie deficit and make sure you get enough protein.

    If you are close to normal body weight, you might want to train at TDEE or slightly above.

    If you're not doing bodybuilding competitions, I don't see any good reason to do the bulk/cut cycle. Yes, it builds photoshoot-ready bodies, but I don't personally believe it's very good for your body.

    During a bodybuilding contest last spring, I went from 23.5% body fat to 19.5% body fat, losing 2 pounds and building an appreciable amount of lean body mass during that time.
  • AJ_G
    AJ_G Posts: 4,158 Member
    There is an energy cost associated with building muscle. If you are running an energy deficit then your body will not build muscle. The body is concerned only with survival. More muscle means more calories burned at rest. If you're running an energy deficit causing weight loss, the last thing your body will want to do is build muscle which will theoretically increase weight loss at your given calorie intake. The only real exception to this is if you are obese, the body can build muscle given you are lifting heavy, eating plenty of protein, and on a moderate calorie deficit.
  • Ella1882
    Ella1882 Posts: 27
    hmadrone: I'm inspired by your profile photo! You look gorgeous and so strong!

    I'm definitely not headed toward bodybuilding....I'm not nearly disciplined enough for that! I'm just tired of slowly putting on weight and losing muscle. Good to know from your personal experience that you can, in fact, lose weight and gain muscle at the same time.

    I'm not much overweight (I could certainly stand to lose 10 pounds, but I'm not medically overweight), so TDEE sounds like the right balance of priorities...building a little muscle, leaving open the possibility of fat loss.

    jimmer: Thanks. Increased efficiency and strength is good too. :) I'd like more muscle (mostly so that I can eat more), but I'd settle for strength. I'll look into the extra protein. I don't like meat very much, and good, fresh fish is expensive, but I'm sure there are other ways to pack in more protein.

    AJ_G: Thanks! Sounds like maintenance intake is the way to go for me for right now.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    but does anyone know whether it's actually true that you can't build muscle in calorie deficit?

    can you build fat in a calorie deficit? It's pretty much the same process save for excess energy (calorie) consumption while lifting weights and working out goes towards repairing your body and building muscle...whereas excess energy (calorie) consumption while leading a sedentary lifestyle goes towards building fat.

    If you are very overweight and under-trained it is possible to have some newb gains of muscle, but it will be very limited. What you will be doing though is preserving the mass you have...so when you cut the fat you will look awesome. Also, everything will tighten up because those muscles are being used.
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    Make sure we're not talking about muscle definition versus muscle hypertrophy because they're not the same. Some people confuse the appearance of their muscles with gaining mass.

    When you first start training your adaptation will be largely neuro-muscular in that your body is getting use to accommodating the weight and movement patterns associated with that weight. At some point, if you're eating at a calorie deficit your body will have adapted to your exercise but your muscles themselves will not continue to adapt because there is insufficient nutrition present to do so. That's part of the reason why you see so many people on these message boards talk about how they plateau so quickly in their strength training program. The adaptation time will be different for everybody.
  • ninerbuff
    ninerbuff Posts: 48,989 Member
    Impossible, no. Improbable for most, yes. There are a few exceptions: untrained person, obese and using weight resistance, returning athlete after long lay off, anabolic steroid user. Even then, muscle gain would be quite modest as best.

    A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
    IDEA Fitness member
    Kickboxing Certified Instructor
    Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
  • Ella1882
    Ella1882 Posts: 27
    Niner: That's why I was asking, actually. I'm untrained, and my goals are modest (I don't need to look muscular, I just want to be stronger, have sufficient muscle to bump up my metabolism, and, if possible, develop a butt so that I have something to put in the back of my jeans). But there seems to be unanimous agreement that the best way to do that is by eating at least maintenance. It does make sense. I just thought that maybe if I was lifting heavy enough my body could pull enough energy from my ~10 pounds of excess fat to build muscle, even if I was eating a little below maintenance.

    There's no rush on the weight loss, though. I'm definitely not going to try to bulk up, but I can deal with the weight loss later. I'd rather bump up my metabolism by building some muscle first.

    Sam: I think I already plateaued! Good to hear that it's common. In my case, however, I think it's because I got comfortable with a certain level of weights, and I haven't increased the weights as often as I should.
  • Sam_I_Am77
    Sam_I_Am77 Posts: 2,093 Member
    You can also try a re-comping approach... Eat like 500 calories above maintenance on training days and 500 calories below on non-training days. Of course those are basic approximates and you would need to adjust to what works for you, but you get the idea at least. If you use Creatine, 5gm's on non-training days can help reduce muscle atrophy associated to a caloric deficit.
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    I just thought that maybe if I was lifting heavy enough my body could pull enough energy from my ~10 pounds of excess fat to build muscle, even if I was eating a little below maintenance.

    definitely not with a mere 10 Lbs of excess fat. You would have to be obese and even then, it would be extremely modest muscle gains...pretty much negligible...you wouldn't be building a booty or anything like that to fill your jeans.

    Fat is an extremely inefficient fuel source and isn't going to provide the body with the kind of energy required to build muscle...building muscle requires a lot of energy (calories). When you are in an energy deficit, what energy your fat supplies is just going to basic functions.
  • WalkingAlong
    WalkingAlong Posts: 4,926 Member
    http://easacademy.org/research-news/article/effect-of-two-different-weight-loss-rates-on-body-composition-and-strength-and-power-related-perform

    I was just looking at this and it says women in both the slow and fast reduction groups gained LBM, and men in the slow group also did. Which surprised me.

    OP- I think they realize now that adding muscle doesn't affect the total calorie burn that much. I know you said you wanted to do it to boost your metabolism.
    http://www.builtlean.com/2013/04/16/muscle-burn-calories/
  • jmangini
    jmangini Posts: 166 Member
    It's a lot easier putting on muscle in an excess of calories which is why bodybuilders do a bulking period during their off season. But if you're untrained or have had a layoff, you will still see some increases in muscle while in a deficit if you're lifting weights and eating adequate protein etc. Just not as much.

    you really won't get a better answer than this. You will probably see a few heated debates about, but from my experience, he is dead on point.
  • Ella1882
    Ella1882 Posts: 27
    Walking: Re your latter point: Oy! I wasn't aware that the thinking had changed about that. Doesn't change much for me (I'd still like to be stronger, and muscle is much more attractive than fat), but that is sad, sad news.

    jmangini, sam, and wolfman: thanks!
  • jmangini
    jmangini Posts: 166 Member
    Walking: Re your latter point: Oy! I wasn't aware that the thinking had changed about that. Doesn't change much for me (I'd still like to be stronger, and muscle is much more attractive than fat), but that is sad, sad news.

    jmangini, sam, and wolfman: thanks!

    what's the point of building extra muscle anyway if you're just going to eat so much you have a layer of fat around it lol. I know that makes sense for some, especially professionals, who want to do the bulk cut thing, but if you just want to look good for the girls and live a normal life, then that's a different story. I gained a lot of muscle while restricting my calories and losing weight. Train really hard and eat right and you will accomplish both. If you want to add slabs of muscle like the Rock, then you need to eat a lot of very lean protein, carbs and calories. I posted his diet for Hercules on here by the way if you are interested in seeing his diet.
  • 3laine75
    3laine75 Posts: 3,069 Member
    Hi

    Just wanted to add, that you won't be able to build any appreciable amount of muscle at deficit but you CAN build serious strength, while still at deficit, if you are using a progressive loading programme (beginners programmes like, starting strength or SL 5x5, for example).

    Getting adequate protein and strength training will help some way towards maintaining the muscle you have and when you have stripped back some fat you could have the appearance of having gained muscle.

    Obviously everyone is different but I was able to keep adding weight(to the bar)/getting stronger for about 6 months before stalling out and upping calories.

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