Skinny Fat (Muscle Gain or Fat Loss)
Jason7Scott
Posts: 33
Hey, just signed up after doing some research and thought id throw a question out there that i have been trying to answer for about a week.
Skinny Fat. I am trying to choose the best path for skinny fat. Calculated i am about 16.5% BF and ideally i want to get to 12% BF. My question is, should i look at increasing calories etc rather than reduce. Really want to get back into the gym, but want to sort out my diet first.
Work random hours with no set lunch break (rarely even took lunch), in the last year, especially last 6 months, i can go all day without any food, only around 8 i may feel hungry. I think I've messed up my metabolism, as not that i didn't eat to loose weight, just not hungry or had no time. I am thinking it may be better to increase calories but reduce carbs, cut sugar etc and then hit the weights and wait for the body to transform over time.
Any advice or links to reputable articles or anything? Really trying to decide if i need to increase, if so, where do i start to set a calorie goal?
Pretty clued up on what foods to eat etc, just so many sources giving different advice on what to do, easy to get lost.
Anyone fought the Skinny Fat war and won?
Skinny Fat. I am trying to choose the best path for skinny fat. Calculated i am about 16.5% BF and ideally i want to get to 12% BF. My question is, should i look at increasing calories etc rather than reduce. Really want to get back into the gym, but want to sort out my diet first.
Work random hours with no set lunch break (rarely even took lunch), in the last year, especially last 6 months, i can go all day without any food, only around 8 i may feel hungry. I think I've messed up my metabolism, as not that i didn't eat to loose weight, just not hungry or had no time. I am thinking it may be better to increase calories but reduce carbs, cut sugar etc and then hit the weights and wait for the body to transform over time.
Any advice or links to reputable articles or anything? Really trying to decide if i need to increase, if so, where do i start to set a calorie goal?
Pretty clued up on what foods to eat etc, just so many sources giving different advice on what to do, easy to get lost.
Anyone fought the Skinny Fat war and won?
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Replies
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I take it you're male, correct?
It you're trying to improve your physique and you're currently 16+% bf... you need to start with losing fat first. Doing the opposite... going into a calorie surplus... would only lead to more fat gain. Sure, you could also add some muscle while eating a surplus, but again, you'd be adding more fat too. In fact, I'd argue that trying to gain from an already "unlearn" state would only accelerate fat gain.
It's better to start a muscle building phase from a leaner state.
Now this doesn't mean you shouldn't be holding off on exercise while eating a deficit. Hardly! By throwing in resistance training while eating a deficit will help preserve the muscle you currently have, which goes a LONG way in improving physique and ditching the skinny fat situation. If you haven't been resistance training, there's even a chance you go adding some muscle while eating a deficit, which is even better.
As far as a screwed up metabolism... I doubt it.
Check out this link I just shared to Facebook... it's part of a documentary on metabolism and it should be eye opening for a lot of people:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=790505804305144&id=206180602737670
In general though... metabolic rate is not as volatile as many people assume.0 -
Thanks for the reply. Yea i am male.
Makes perfect sense, ill start looking at a deficit. I have read in places 250 or 500 is a good way to go in deficit. Think i can easily achieve 500 deficit from my maintenance level, so no risks there or could i do more damage cutting so much from maintenance level?
Haven't done any training in a while, so i am sure i can build some muscle mass while getting a leaner. Ill look to cut my BF to 12% before a calorie surplus, and focus on getting lean between here and 12%.0 -
Thanks for the reply. Yea i am male.
Makes perfect sense, ill start looking at a deficit. I have read in places 250 or 500 is a good way to go in deficit. Think i can easily achieve 500 deficit from my maintenance level, so no risks there or could i do more damage cutting so much from maintenance level?
Haven't done any training in a while, so i am sure i can build some muscle mass while getting a leaner. Ill look to cut my BF to 12% before a calorie surplus, and focus on getting lean between here and 12%.
Quite frankly, in almost all cases the goal should be to lose fat slowly. I'm a fan of 15-30% deficits off of maintenance. Yeah, progress is a bit slower, but it tends to promote things like consistency, muscle preservation, and lasting results.
Maintenance for active people is typically around 14-16 cals/lb.
If you feel you "run a little slow" you might shoot for the lower end of that range.
From there, take a process based approach where you adjust calories every couple of weeks based on what's actually happening. If you're losing too quickly... ramp calories up a bit. Losing too slowly... cut them down a bit. I'd only move in 5-10% increments.0 -
Cheers. My last question (promise) is any recommendations on carbs/protein/fat %?
Have read 40/40/20 is good, however not sure if its too little healthy fats? I read about testosterone levels drop with lack of fats, and making it harder to build muscle. 40/40/20 good ratio overall? Has had good recommendations..
Thought i might throw in also, any thoughts on if i don't reach my target with deficit. Calculated it to be 1800 per day, maintenance of 2330, so around 22% cut. Would i be doing more damage not reaching my daily target, or would it be a bonus if i achieve only 1000 that day. Plan to do calorie shifting on sundays and eat to 2300 so body dosent get use to 1800.0 -
Cheers. My last question (promise) is any recommendations on carbs/protein/fat %?
Have read 40/40/20 is good, however not sure if its too little healthy fats? I read about testosterone levels drop with lack of fats, and making it harder to build muscle. 40/40/20 good ratio overall? Has had good recommendations..
No worries about the questions... let them fly. That's why I hang out around here.
I'm not big on percentages... at least not for everything. The reason is simple... 30% of one person's calorie goal might be just right for one person and totally off for another person's calorie goal.
Here's how I tend to look at it.
Protein should be your foundation that everything else is built upon. As a loose ballpark... something like .75 - 1.5 grams per pound of goal body weight is a good place to find yourself in. I'd err on the 1 - 1.25 g/lb range if I were you.
I like to see 25-30% of calories coming from fat in most cases.
I suggest getting in 3-6 servings of fibrous veggies and 2-3 servings of fruit per day.
What's left of your calorie allotment after the above is taken care of can be filled with whatever you prefer. I like carbs, I function better on carbs, and I realize better progress on with more carbs in my mix. So I tend to fill in my remainder with them. Others don't find this to be the case... and in those cases we usually fill in the remainder with more fat and maybe some more protein.
Even my smallest clients who are on the low end of carb intake get, on average, around 125 grams of it per day. I have other clients who, at times, are consuming 300-400+ grams per day.
I find this approach tends to custom tailor nutrition best to people.Thought i might throw in also, any thoughts on if i don't reach my target with deficit. Calculated it to be 1800 per day, maintenance of 2330, so around 22% cut. Would i be doing more damage not reaching my daily target, or would it be a bonus if i achieve only 1000 that day. Plan to do calorie shifting on sundays and eat to 2300 so body dosent get use to 1800.
I don't mind uneven weekly calorie distributions. I have a number of clients whom I tweak calories across the week. In some cases it's to give them more caloric freedom on the weekends when they tend to lack as much control. In other cases it's about doing things like cyclical or targeted ketogenic dieting... where carbs are strategically placed in relation to training... and as carbs flux, so do calories.
But that's neither here nor there for the most part. I think you shouldn't avoid looking at bigger deficits as a bonus. Instead, think in terms eating as much food as possible while still allowing for a reasonable rate of weight loss across a 2-4 week period. With my clients, I'm typically not altering calories sooner than a month's time.... especially my non-obese clients.0 -
Just wondered if you could look at this plan quick and see if its right to start with?
I am basically doing a somewhat, easy full body workout at home. Consists of:
Pull-Ups - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
1 Minute Rest
Push-Ups - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
2 Minute Rest
Squats - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
1 Minute Rest
Crunches - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
Seems pretty straight forward and quick, but trying to reduce the risk of failure to start with, so have sorted out my diet and monitoring my calories, carbs, proteins and fats. I want to do a workout i know i can stick to and can't really give myself an excuse not to do for the first few weeks. As i said, in this time i want to reduce my BF to 12% and build up some lean muscle. When i hit this target, thats when the beefy gym sessions can come in with increased calories.
As i build up and find i can complete reps easily, i will up them. For example, would like to hit 20 reps on push ups.. then once thats achieved, change it to diamond pushups. As i said, want to do this workout every morning i wake up as its simple and can be done straight out of bed.
Do you think the above would be sufficient, especially as a start? or am i really going to lack some results.
One last thing i wanted to also ask was protein. I really like my protein shake, pHD Vanilla. I want to look at having a shake when waking up, after workout and before bed. Reason being i have read that in some principles, protein is obviously good before and after work out, and it also helps muscle recovery over night by having it before bed? I can quite easily fit this into my diet, as i feel i may struggle to hit the protein target so this won't effect my diet plan in anyway. Plus its a decent treat0 -
Just wondered if you could look at this plan quick and see if its right to start with?
I am basically doing a somewhat, easy full body workout at home. Consists of:
Pull-Ups - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
1 Minute Rest
Push-Ups - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
2 Minute Rest
Squats - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
1 Minute Rest
Crunches - 4 x Sets - 10 Reps 30 Second Rest between Sets
Seems pretty straight forward and quick, but trying to reduce the risk of failure to start with, so have sorted out my diet and monitoring my calories, carbs, proteins and fats. I want to do a workout i know i can stick to and can't really give myself an excuse not to do for the first few weeks. As i said, in this time i want to reduce my BF to 12% and build up some lean muscle. When i hit this target, thats when the beefy gym sessions can come in with increased calories.
I don't have a problem with it per se.
The adequacy of a program always depends on the person in question. If you haven't been training at all for a while... something like this can be a perfectly reasonable entry into things.
I'll say this...
Physique optimization really boils down to minimizing fat mass and maximizing muscle mass. Most people are pretty good at minimizing fat mass (not keeping it off is something entirely different). We're really good at creating deficits via reduced food and energy-wasting exercise.
It's the whole muscle preservation thing, while living in a deficit, that tends to trip a lot of people up. Compared to the energy-wasting stuff that helps contribute to a deficit, the muscle preserving stuff tends to need more specificity and deliberateness.
But again, coming full circle, if you've not been doing much of anything than the benefit is pretty much anything can preserve muscle... the program you outlined being no different.
If it were me, though, I'd personally prefer for a more balanced attack plan that utilized external loads... this would help bump the challenge up a bit, help ensure muscle maintenance, and help promote potential muscle growth even in the face of a deficit. Now I'm making the assumption that you're not using external loads... so when you say squats you're referring to squats with solely your body weight. Correct me if I'm wrong please. If you do have some equipment at home I'll throw some more suggestions at you. For example... you're not hitting your posterior chain much and there are ways of doing that at home with things like RDLs, hip thrusts, etc.As i build up and find i can complete reps easily, i will up them. For example, would like to hit 20 reps on push ups.. then once thats achieved, change it to diamond pushups. As i said, want to do this workout every morning i wake up as its simple and can be done straight out of bed.
Yeah, progressing the intensity is important. I wouldn't personally go much about 15 reps if the goal is muscle preservation and strength development. And you're right... there are ways of progressing intensity with body weight exercises. Your push-ups to diamond push-ups as a prime example. If it were me I'd add in some feet elevated push-ups to increase the loading of your pecs.
If your squats are simply body weight squats... you can progress to single leg variants such as lunges, step-ups, etc. Hell, you could even add load with things like book bags and progressively add more weight over time.
Doing it every day initially is fine. Eventually though, as you get stronger, I'd prefer to see more recovery thrown into the mix. Remember, when you're in a deficit, recovery ability is actually diminished. But again, I wouldn't go worrying about this terribly much until you build up some more strength.
Also, if you do have some equipment, you might be able to create an A and B routine so you can alternate them... provide more variety of stimulus.
For example, you could do a push day and a pull day.
Push day could look something like this:
Squats (with a book bag or whatever implement you have)
Push-up Variant
Chair Dips
Planks
Pull day could look something like this:
Hip thrusts (with some load on your pelvis)
Pull-ups or Chins
Inverted Table Rows
Reverse Crunches
Just some ideas.One last thing i wanted to also ask was protein. I really like my protein shake, pHD Vanilla. I want to look at having a shake when waking up, after workout and before bed. Reason being i have read that in some principles, protein is obviously good before and after work out, and it also helps muscle recovery over night by having it before bed? I can quite easily fit this into my diet, as i feel i may struggle to hit the protein target so this won't effect my diet plan in anyway. Plus its a decent treat
I typically drink to shakes per day myself. I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it fits your calories and macro goals.0 -
bump0
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Confused.
You WANT to be skinny fat?0 -
Confused.
You WANT to be skinny fat?
"Anyone fought the Skinny Fat war and won?"
"Muscle Gain or Fat Loss" (Deciding whether to bulk or cut first)
"I am trying to choose the best path for skinny fat" (To be read as "for tackling skinny fat")
What room is there for confusion? He clearly wants to get rid of it.I don't have a problem with it per se.
The adequacy of a program always depends on the person in question. If you haven't been training at all for a while... something like this can be a perfectly reasonable entry into things.
I'll say this...
Physique optimization really boils down to minimizing fat mass and maximizing muscle mass. Most people are pretty good at minimizing fat mass (not keeping it off is something entirely different). We're really good at creating deficits via reduced food and energy-wasting exercise.
It's the whole muscle preservation thing, while living in a deficit, that tends to trip a lot of people up. Compared to the energy-wasting stuff that helps contribute to a deficit, the muscle preserving stuff tends to need more specificity and deliberateness.
But again, coming full circle, if you've not been doing much of anything than the benefit is pretty much anything can preserve muscle... the program you outlined being no different.
If it were me, though, I'd personally prefer for a more balanced attack plan that utilized external loads... this would help bump the challenge up a bit, help ensure muscle maintenance, and help promote potential muscle growth even in the face of a deficit. Now I'm making the assumption that you're not using external loads... so when you say squats you're referring to squats with solely your body weight. Correct me if I'm wrong please. If you do have some equipment at home I'll throw some more suggestions at you. For example... you're not hitting your posterior chain much and there are ways of doing that at home with things like RDLs, hip thrusts, etc.
Stroutman81, you ought to be commended for being among the few here who are both savvy and can deliver information with clarity. Nice.0 -
Check out this link I just shared to Facebook... it's part of a documentary on metabolism and it should be eye opening for a lot of people:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=790505804305144&id=206180602737670
In general though... metabolic rate is not as volatile as many people assume.
That was interesting. It's so common to just say "Oh, I have a low metabolism." I've considered before that that was part of my problem with stalled weight loss, but when I followed a plan to "reset my metabolism" it didn't have any effect on me, which seems to be supported by this doctor who says that it is rarely the problem.
Thanks for sharing!0 -
Of which I would think he would have said AGAINST skinny fatConfused.
You WANT to be skinny fat?
"Anyone fought the Skinny Fat war and won?"
"Muscle Gain or Fat Loss" (Deciding whether to bulk or cut first)
"I am trying to choose the best path for skinny fat" (To be read as "for tackling skinny fat")
What room is there for confusion? He clearly wants to get rid of it.I don't have a problem with it per se.
The adequacy of a program always depends on the person in question. If you haven't been training at all for a while... something like this can be a perfectly reasonable entry into things.
I'll say this...
Physique optimization really boils down to minimizing fat mass and maximizing muscle mass. Most people are pretty good at minimizing fat mass (not keeping it off is something entirely different). We're really good at creating deficits via reduced food and energy-wasting exercise.
It's the whole muscle preservation thing, while living in a deficit, that tends to trip a lot of people up. Compared to the energy-wasting stuff that helps contribute to a deficit, the muscle preserving stuff tends to need more specificity and deliberateness.
But again, coming full circle, if you've not been doing much of anything than the benefit is pretty much anything can preserve muscle... the program you outlined being no different.
If it were me, though, I'd personally prefer for a more balanced attack plan that utilized external loads... this would help bump the challenge up a bit, help ensure muscle maintenance, and help promote potential muscle growth even in the face of a deficit. Now I'm making the assumption that you're not using external loads... so when you say squats you're referring to squats with solely your body weight. Correct me if I'm wrong please. If you do have some equipment at home I'll throw some more suggestions at you. For example... you're not hitting your posterior chain much and there are ways of doing that at home with things like RDLs, hip thrusts, etc.
Stroutman81, you ought to be commended for being among the few here who are both savvy and can deliver information with clarity. Nice.0 -
Of which I would think he would have said AGAINST skinny fat
Part of reading comprehension involves non-selective reading. Context lets you fill in certain gaps, which is why I provided more than one quotation.
"Anyone fought the Skinny Fat war and won?" Surely a war is something toward which one is against, as you said.
That and just about everything else he said confirms the implications therein.0 -
Confused.
You WANT to be skinny fat?
"Anyone fought the Skinny Fat war and won?"
"Muscle Gain or Fat Loss" (Deciding whether to bulk or cut first)
"I am trying to choose the best path for skinny fat" (To be read as "for tackling skinny fat")
What room is there for confusion? He clearly wants to get rid of it.I don't have a problem with it per se.
The adequacy of a program always depends on the person in question. If you haven't been training at all for a while... something like this can be a perfectly reasonable entry into things.
I'll say this...
Physique optimization really boils down to minimizing fat mass and maximizing muscle mass. Most people are pretty good at minimizing fat mass (not keeping it off is something entirely different). We're really good at creating deficits via reduced food and energy-wasting exercise.
It's the whole muscle preservation thing, while living in a deficit, that tends to trip a lot of people up. Compared to the energy-wasting stuff that helps contribute to a deficit, the muscle preserving stuff tends to need more specificity and deliberateness.
But again, coming full circle, if you've not been doing much of anything than the benefit is pretty much anything can preserve muscle... the program you outlined being no different.
If it were me, though, I'd personally prefer for a more balanced attack plan that utilized external loads... this would help bump the challenge up a bit, help ensure muscle maintenance, and help promote potential muscle growth even in the face of a deficit. Now I'm making the assumption that you're not using external loads... so when you say squats you're referring to squats with solely your body weight. Correct me if I'm wrong please. If you do have some equipment at home I'll throw some more suggestions at you. For example... you're not hitting your posterior chain much and there are ways of doing that at home with things like RDLs, hip thrusts, etc.
Stroutman81, you ought to be commended for being among the few here who are both savvy and can deliver information with clarity. Nice.
Thanks, I appreciate that. I was just skimming over some of my posts and my voice to text definitely botched a few things but I think it was understandable nonetheless.0 -
Check out this link I just shared to Facebook... it's part of a documentary on metabolism and it should be eye opening for a lot of people:
https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=790505804305144&id=206180602737670
In general though... metabolic rate is not as volatile as many people assume.
That was interesting. It's so common to just say "Oh, I have a low metabolism." I've considered before that that was part of my problem with stalled weight loss, but when I followed a plan to "reset my metabolism" it didn't have any effect on me, which seems to be supported by this doctor who says that it is rarely the problem.
Thanks for sharing!
Very rarely. Think of it like this. We've been putting people on calorie deficits in metabolic wards for research purposes for a long time now. Never has there been a study performed where a deficit didn't cause someone to lose weight. Yet out here in the real world people claim time and time again that a deficit doesn't work for them.
When we put self purported weight-loss-resistant folks on a clinically controlled deficit in research conditions... they lose weight. These are people who swear that no matter what they try, they can't lose. Yet when we ensure that they actually are rocking a deficit... the weight comes off.
Emotionally we want it to be something that's "broken" in us. It would shift the blame and offer the hope for some sort of specific solution.
Unfortunately, the vast majority of times it has everything to do with inaccuracy with regards to calorie intake or expenditure, inadequate allowance for time to do it's thing, unrealistic expectations, and things of this nature.0 -
I would personally up the calories, and hit the weights hard! People usually make the most gains the 6 months of weight training, I would take advantage of this window and try to put on as much muscle mass as possible. Inwoukld worry about cutting down later, it should be easier to cut down with the added muscle mass. This would be the route I would take. Just my prefferance...0
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I would personally up the calories, and hit the weights hard! People usually make the most gains the 6 months of weight training, I would take advantage of this window and try to put on as much muscle mass as possible. Inwoukld worry about cutting down later, it should be easier to cut down with the added muscle mass. This would be the route I would take. Just my prefferance...
That's a fair approach.
For me, in my experience, the novice window of opportunity is open, surplus or not. I see people new to lifting put on muscle in the face of a deficit quite frequently - especially if they have some fat on them. And in this particular case, once he decided to turn the deficit around and move into surplus territory... there would still be some "newbie oomph" to run with for the maximization of muscle growth.
Novice or not, when it comes to my male clients, assuming the primary goals are aesthetically based and assuming they're drug free, I'm not bulking until they're down around 10-12%. Starting north of that general zone, give or take some points, promotes too much fat accumulation for my personal liking. It'll merely lengthen the time required to shed the fat later on thus potentially interfering with some of the muscle gains acquired.
But I can appreciate your point.... maximize it while you can isn't something I'd consider as bad or wrong advice. There are a lot of ways you can skin a cat.0 -
I would personally up the calories, and hit the weights hard! People usually make the most gains the 6 months of weight training, I would take advantage of this window and try to put on as much muscle mass as possible. Inwoukld worry about cutting down later, it should be easier to cut down with the added muscle mass. This would be the route I would take. Just my prefferance...
That's a fair approach.
For me, in my experience, the novice window of opportunity is open, surplus or not. I see people new to lifting put on muscle in the face of a deficit quite frequently - especially if they have some fat on them. And in this particular case, once he decided to turn the deficit around and move into surplus territory... there would still be some "newbie oomph" to run with for the maximization of muscle growth.
Novice or not, when it comes to my male clients, assuming the primary goals are aesthetically based and assuming they're drug free, I'm not bulking until they're down around 10-12%. Starting north of that general zone, give or take some points, promotes too much fat accumulation for my personal liking. It'll merely lengthen the time required to shed the fat later on thus potentially interfering with some of the muscle gains acquired.
But I can appreciate your point.... maximize it while you can isn't something I'd consider as bad or wrong advice. There are a lot of ways you can skin a cat.
Noted. The reason the body puts on muscle "easier" in a caloric surplus is because, being in a caloric surplus, puts the body in a anabolic state. Being at a defecit will put you in a catabolic state. In which the body consumes both muscle and fat. Putting on new muscle while being at a a defecit is nearly impossible. What you thought was muscle growth was in fact the development of nerve motor units being developed from putting the muscle under new load that it is not accustomed to. So you do see what appears to be muscle development and maturity, but there is no new muscle growth, your simply just maintaining at best...0 -
The caloric surplus I would suggest would be of a mere 200 or so calories above maintenance, to attempt to keep fat gain at aminimum0
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I guess it all comes down to what's more important for the op. Op, is it more important for you at this point to get leaner and show some definition at the risk of getting to a low bodyweight? Or is it important to put on added muscle mass and gain lean body weight? If I were skinny fat, I would be eager to put on mass on my shoulders, chest, legs and back.. I would want to fill out and get as strong as possible! That's just me though, some rather be thin and cut, my goal is to be big and cut... Stroutman81, your a muscular dude, so psychologically we really don't know what its like to be "skinny fat"...0
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Noted. The reason the body puts on muscle "easier" in a caloric surplus is because, being in a caloric surplus, puts the body in a anabolic state. Being at a defecit will put you in a catabolic state. In which the body consumes both muscle and fat. Putting on new muscle while being at a a defecit is nearly impossible.
I know well the theoretical framework of anabolism vs catabolism in relation to hyper vs. hypocaloric feeding conditions. It's theoretical though, trust me. I've had the privilege of working with hundreds of people over my tenure as a coach and it's pretty common to see people losing fat and gaining muscle concurrently while eating hypocalorically. This happens quite often in overfat novices.
Are you a trainer or coach?
If so, I take it you don't have a lot of experience working with overfat novices. And that's not a jab... maybe you're just training a more advanced population. And with more advanced trainees... ones who have more time invested "under the bar" and who are leaner... I would agree with you... seeing any appreciable hypertrophy in the face of a deficit is unlikely sans drug users or those coming off injury. The body's simply too trained, to proximal to its genetic potential, and they're simply too lean for the body to "think" that adding muscle is a wise thing to do from an evolutionary standpoint.
The OP, though, although "skinny fat".... is still overfat. And relatively untrained.
As I noted previously... this is a recipe for concurrent body recomp.
If you're really interested in this topic, Lyle McDonald has some excellent information on it... you can start here:
http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/adding-muscle-while-losing-fat-qa.htmlWhat you thought was muscle growth was in fact the development of nerve motor units being developed from putting the muscle under new load that it is not accustomed to. So you do see what appears to be muscle development and maturity, but there is no new muscle growth, your simply just maintaining at best...
Umm... no.
Sorry.
I think you have me mistaken as some blabber mouth who doesn't have experience or education on the subject at hand. I'm not blindly confusing neuromuscular adaptations for hypertrophy. Unfortunately for your ASSUMPTION is the fact that I've had the privilege of playing in labs at university where we were able to closely monitor such things as muscle cell cross sectional area.
And my experience aside, if you had any experience actually reading published data, you'd realize the error in your extreme categorical/binary thinking. Yes, the interwebz says it's absolutely impossible to gain muscle while eating hypocalorically. But real world data doesn't always agree with the e-experts, unfortunately for the case you're trying to make. There are plenty of papers showing subjects gaining lean tissue while eating hypocalorically.
As a general rule, yes, it's very hard for most anyone who has invested time resistance training to put muscle on while dieting. Especially if they're relatively lean. As you noted, the body doesn't have enough energy coming in the door to support the tissue it has in these cases... it's not going to make matters worse by adding a bunch of metabolically expensive stuff like muscle.
But this isn't the rigid, set in stone fact in each and every case you're making it out to be.
If memory serves me right, this paper had one of the craziest concurrent body comp changes while dieting I've seen:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9309627
I think over the course of the study the C group realized something like 9 lbs of muscle gain and 15 lbs of fat loss.
Very atypical for sure.
But it merely highlights why you can't approach this subject with an absolute mindset.
If your mind is actually open to learning something rather than parroting the soundbite "facts" you read on the 'net... I have the full paper on one of my external HDs. If you want it I'll dig it up for you... just message me your email addy.
But you don't have to look far in the research to see plenty of instances of subjects adding lean tissue while eating hypocalorically. Here's another for you:
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/1/19.abstract
And i'm not trying to be a jerk here... if you read my posts around the forum they're all very supportive. I'll be honest... I'm not a fan of your stance... again... absolute thinking doesn't go over well with me. Especially when it contradicts much of the data out there. But that's okay... as long as you're willing to open your mind and do a little digging here.
Disagreements are great where I come from. They either i) confirm what you thought you new to be true or ii) lead you to learning something you didn't know prior to the debate. In either event it's a win as far as I'm concerned. Hopefully you'll agree.I guess it all comes down to what's more important for the op. Op, is it more important for you at this point to get leaner and show some definition at the risk of getting to a low bodyweight? Or is it important to put on added muscle mass and gain lean body weight? If I were skinny fat, I would be eager to put on mass on my shoulders, chest, legs and back.. I would want to fill out and get as strong as possible! That's just me though, some rather be thin and cut, my goal is to be big and cut... Stroutman81, your a muscular dude, so psychologically we really don't know what its like to be "skinny fat"...
I started out skinny fat. I do know.
And in my practice... yeah, sure... what's most important to my clients obviously weighs heavily in the choices I make with the advice I give them. But it's not the only thing I consider. I also consider the data and what I know to be true. And if a skinny fat guy walks into my gym rocking a bf% that's over 15% or so and wants to "get jacked", in almost all cases I'm going to diet the fat off him first. I'll help him understand my rationale and 9 out of 10 times he's going to get on board with my reasoning. I frame it as a temporary step that helps establish a solid foundation to "bulk" from shortly on down the road.
If you look at things like p-ratio, how fat you are when you start overfeeding plays heavily on where the energy that's in excess of your maintenance needs will be partitioned or stored.
Yes, resistance training does influence partitioning as well... but I prefer to bulk while minimizing fat gain and bulking from an already overfat position isn't the most sensible thing to do in my model of physique optimization.
I'm not the god father of jackedness by any stretch so as I noted previously... you could skin this cat differently. If he took your advice, it's not as if he's going to wind up with belly rolls and stretch marks and no muscle to show for his efforts. It's simply not what I'd consider an ideal avenue in the context of my approach, is all.0 -
Wow! That is a great response! Yes, I am open to your stance! That second source you cited shows amazing results in recomposition! I was always under the impression that recomposition takes place while consuming calories at maintenance or slight defecit. Like you said these results are from trainees that are novice, correct? Like the op is; I wasn't trying to discredit anything you had said, just simply, in general, its difficult to add lean muscle mass at a caloric defecit.
Op would definitely benefit from losing the fat first; I just didn't feel that 16% wasnt to high of a percentage; and that he could go either way.. I do understand that a leaner body is more apt to partition nutrients more efficiently, thus keeping new fat gain at bay... You definitely came back strong brother! Lol, thats a great post! I give credit where credit is due...
As far as credentials, no, Im not a trainer, just life experience, training for sports when I was younger, and also training with bodybuilders, a few that are ifbb pros now... Even while being chemically enhanced, all they could hope for is muscle maintenance while being at a caloric defecit in preparation for a show... You definitely have the "real world" experience that I don't have, and this is your career... Always looking to learn, and I didn't take anything you said as a jab, great post, I thank you!0 -
I didn't think that catabolism and anabolism as it relates to caloric consumption was a theory....? But I'll take your word for it... So what your saying is that you could still remain in an anabolic state (which is what we want) while eating at a caloric defecit? What causes catabolism and how can we prevent this??0
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Threads been busy
Didn't think i implied i wanted to be skinny fat.. why would i want that, but everyones get an opinion.
Don't have any gym equipment I'm afraid, unless you count a pull up bar.
Sounds great. Think i will stick to my original plan. Its small but it do get a workout from it. Hope it will help me develop form etc, while making it excuse free to go to the gym. Once its routine, i want to up it to get more intense and see better results... just not willing to give my brain any excuse not to do and do them, so want to build the plan slowly.
I just wanted to see some form of results from the exercises, rather than the whole routine being redundant, but if i can't complete the whole workout with ease, then i guess its working.
Thanks for all your help. Been incredible. Will keep you posted on progress, may throw a question about an updated plan in a few weeks.0 -
I used to be skinny fat, and I just bulked up first, gained some strength and built some muscle and then went on, and still am, on a cut, I feel this is the best way to do it because once you've built up some muscle, your metabolism will increase and make it easier and faster to get lean later on and you will see much more defninition in your muscles when your do get your bodyfat down low enough, good luck in which ever path you choose
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Wow! That is a great response! Yes, I am open to your stance! That second source you cited shows amazing results in recomposition! I was always under the impression that recomposition takes place while consuming calories at maintenance or slight defecit. Like you said these results are from trainees that are novice, correct? Like the op is; I wasn't trying to discredit anything you had said, just simply, in general, its difficult to add lean muscle mass at a caloric defecit.
And you're certainly correct in that regard. What I took issue with mostly was this comment:
"What you thought was muscle growth was in fact the development of nerve motor units being developed from putting the muscle under new load that it is not accustomed to."
i) I have a pretty good clue about what I'm seeing happen
ii) You really can't speak so matter of factly as if concurrent comp changes are impossible in a deficit.
Your stance that muscle gain is hard in a deficit is absolutely true. Hypertrophy is a very intensive process, energetically speaking. Calories are energy. If you don't have enough of them coming in the door to maintain the tissue you currently have, anyone better believe that adding slabs of muscle while dieting is an unlikely outcome.
But...
There are instances where it's more probable, at least for a short stint before your body "catches on." And that's what I'm talking about here. And when you pair this probability with the fact that partitioning of excess calories is skewed more toward fat the fatter you start a bulk from... well... that's the foundation of why I dished the recommendation I dished.
The OP is on the fence, really. As I noted it would not be the end of the world if he were to bulk from the position he's at now. But the further north of 15%, give or take, a male trainee goes.... the less reasonable the idea of bulking really becomes.... novice or not.Op would definitely benefit from losing the fat first; I just didn't feel that 16% wasnt to high of a percentage; and that he could go either way.. I do understand that a leaner body is more apt to partition nutrients more efficiently, thus keeping new fat gain at bay... You definitely came back strong brother! Lol, thats a great post! I give credit where credit is due...
Sorry, replying as I read your post... but see above. He is borderline which is why your advice isn't at all absurd. Had he been 20-25% bf and you made that same recommendation... well than I would have taken a stronger stance.
And thanks for the respectful discourse! It's rare to cross paths with someone who's willing to hash things out logically. Props to you.As far as credentials, no, Im not a trainer, just life experience, training for sports when I was younger, and also training with bodybuilders, a few that are ifbb pros now... Even while being chemically enhanced, all they could hope for is muscle maintenance while being at a caloric defecit in preparation for a show...
Makes some sense that they were hoping for muscle maintenance at best. The more proximal to genetic potential (whatever that means), the less likely muscle growth is to occur during a deficit. Hell, chances are better for muscle loss. And your buddies are at supraphysiological levels of muscle given their chemical assistance.
I don't have a lot of experience working with that group.... but again... makes sense.You definitely have the "real world" experience that I don't have, and this is your career... Always looking to learn, and I didn't take anything you said as a jab, great post, I thank you!
Good stuff man. Thanks for the conversation... this is the sort of stuff that makes communities like this great.0 -
I didn't think that catabolism and anabolism as it relates to caloric consumption was a theory....? But I'll take your word for it... So what your saying is that you could still remain in an anabolic state (which is what we want) while eating at a caloric defecit? What causes catabolism and how can we prevent this??
Being energy deficient is by default catabolic.
But in certain instances there can be what seems to be a tradeoff of fat for muscle.
Lyle McDonald has forgotten more than I know... I highly suggest reading his article that I linked to above. He presents a pretty logical explanation of it that I agree with.
And it's not something that has been studied specifically... at least to my knowledge. But it's something I've seen time and time again in the real world. No, my measurement tools aren't perfect.... but when you collect as much data (weight, bf%, anthropometric measurements, pictures) as I do with as many clients as I've worked with over the last 13 or so years, you start to pick up on certain things.
Then you combine the available research that wasn't specifically looking at concurrent body comp changes in a deficit, but as a side to studying something else, they tracked lean mass in hypocaloric conditions and realized gains.
It happens in select instances.
How exactly?
I don't think we're at a point where we can clearly outline the mechanisms exactly.
Point is you're very pressed to find any absolutes in the world of physiology. Context is everything and while there are plenty of general rules we can float around... there are almost always going to be exceptions to them.0 -
I used to be skinny fat, and I just bulked up first, gained some strength and built some muscle and then went on, and still am, on a cut, I feel this is the best way to do it because once you've built up some muscle, your metabolism will increase and make it easier and faster to get lean later on and you will see much more defninition in your muscles when your do get your bodyfat down low enough, good luck in which ever path you choose
If you were on the fence in terms of bf%.... say 12-15ish %... yeah, it's certainly a viable approach. Frankly if you're in this territory (same territory a the OP), we're really splitting hairs when we debate whether to bulk or cut first. But it's a good discussion nonetheless.
Question for you. How much of an increase do you think happens in terms of metabolic rate? I'm assuming you're tying the increased metabolism to the additional muscle.
Fat and muscle are both metabolically active tissues and neither of them burn a terrible amount of energy. You'd have to add crazy amounts of muscle to make a meaningful dent in metabolic rate.
Just interested in your thoughts.0 -
Had another read through the posts, and had a thought about including chair dips and feet-elivated push ups as you mentioned to increase the intensity of the workout.
Going for 4 sets of 10 reps.
I wanted to get to 20 on pushups, to move to diamond push ups until i reach 20. Same with feet elevated. Once i can do that, start looking at changing up some muscles to make it more difficult (gym with free weights).
For the squats, pull-ups and dips, what kind of 'limit' do you think i should reach before the exercise becomes invaluable?
Also, any advice on mixing up the routine? Not sure if i would benefit from doing pull-ups, dips and push-ups, followed by squats and crunches after (in that order) so the muscles don't rest during the workout... but i am throwing that out as what i would expect, so any expert advice would be great!
Cheers again0 -
Just wanting to add a vote of thanks to all the posters in this thread; it's been useful for me as I was sitting on the same fence (BF around 17% following 3.5kg weight loss over a 7-week period with cardio but no resistance other than push ups) - now clear about it being sensible to stay at a mild calorie deficit while doing Starting Strength (starting third week and enjoying it).0
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