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MyFitnessPal Community

High Estrogen? Vitex agnus Castus? Any one?

manique45

Vitex Agnus Castus - Chaste Berry

Over the coarse of 4 years I have had female problems. Started when I stopped taking my YAZ birth control. I was trying to concieve. I started to have a problem with ovarian cyst and spotting. Sex was to painful to do so after 4 months I finally got pregnant just to miscarry a few weeks later. After the miscarriage all the same symptoms came back. Took me just over a year to finally concieve again. Today my baby is almost 3 years old!

After giving birth to him all the symptoms have returned. In the last 3 years the doctors say it is just a hormonal imbalance. They want me to go back on birth control to fix it. I tried it for 3 months and it made all my symptoms worse. Since having my son all my issues that I am dealing with are

Insomnia, slow very slow weight loss, retaining water, heavy menstral bleeding for up to 3 wks, ovualtion pain, bad acne, bad PMS, depression and still have breast milk and I stopped breast feeding over 2 years ago.

So the other day I talked with a Natural Healer and she said I have a classic case of High Estrogen. She said my pear shaped body is a common thing seen among women that typically have these symptoms. She recommended for me to take Vitex Agnus Castus or AKA Chaste Berry. She said that in a few months it will restore balance in my hormones! I am so hopeful and just looking for others that may have something to say about this supplement.

Replies

mjudd1990

You may have polycystic ovarian syndrome. Go see an endocrinologist and not a witch doctor prescribing magic berries.

Dragonwolf

You may have polycystic ovarian syndrome. Go see an endocrinologist and not a witch doctor prescribing magic berries.

Yes, because things like aspirin and penicillin didn't come from a source in nature...(oh, wait...)

Also, if it is PCOS, most conventional doctors aren't much better equipped to treat it than a "witch doctor." Most will blindly throw pills at you -- if you can get them to run the tests at all. So...yeah.

Chasteberry is actually known for its ability to inhibit the production of follicle stimulating hormone (thus decreasing estrogen production), and increasing the production of lutenizing hormone and inhibits prolactin (thus increase progesterone production). Additionally, chasteberry doesn't really have side effects, nor does it interfere with other medications (except dopamine related ones), so it's harmless to try.

That said, I do agree that it sounds very much like Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) with estrogen dominance, and you should see an endo to get it confirmed/ruled out (and monitored if confirmed). PCOS is a pain in the *kitten* to deal with on your own, so any medical support you can get will help.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0901/p821.html

mjudd1990

Garcinia cambogia and raspberry ketones come from plants too and those work wonders...oh wait. I agree lots of plants can have medicinal benefits but a lot are worthless or even harmful. Try it out I suppose but go see an actual doc that specializes in hormone disorders.

WildCatClimbs

It does sound like you have PCOS. I have found A LOT of people have had tons of luck doing the Whole30 program and then maintaining a paleo lifestyle afterwords. There is a lot of info out there from women who healed their PCOS using nutrition and supplements. Your body WANTS to balance itself, you just need to give it the tools. On a side note, I am currently on YAZ and it is the highest estrogen pill I have ever been on, I was put on it due to cystic acne. However I gained 10 lbs in the year I was on it even though I was eating healthy and exercising like always. I take it you did not have this experience with it? Maybe it is just me getting older and not the pill

Good Luck and keep us posted !

manique45

You may have polycystic ovarian syndrome. Go see an endocrinologist and not a witch doctor prescribing magic berries.

Well since you seem to have all the answers perhaps I should just ask you... FYI I did see an endocrinologist and she does thyroid more gland disorders not hormonal balance things. I seen an OB GYN and a GYNO specializing in female problems, Many test were done and they couldn't figure out why I am bleeding except my hormones are not balanced...

I am sincerely asking for others review on similar instances not your two cents that is not helpful.

manique45

Dragonwolf

Yes, because things like aspirin and penicillin didn't come from a source in nature...(oh, wait...)

Also, if it is PCOS, most conventional doctors aren't much better equipped to treat it than a "witch doctor." Most will blindly throw pills at you -- if you can get them to run the tests at all. So...yeah.

Chasteberry is actually known for its ability to inhibit the production of follicle stimulating hormone (thus decreasing estrogen production), and increasing the production of lutenizing hormone and inhibits prolactin (thus increase progesterone production). Additionally, chasteberry doesn't really have side effects, nor does it interfere with other medications (except dopamine related ones), so it's harmless to try.

That said, I do agree that it sounds very much like Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) with estrogen dominance, and you should see an endo to get it confirmed/ruled out (and monitored if confirmed). PCOS is a pain in the *kitten* to deal with on your own, so any medical support you can get will help.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0901/p821.html

Quote above:

thank you for this... very insightful when I did see the endocrinologist she wasn't helpful at all didn't even suggest looking past my thyroid test. It had been about 18 months after I had my son and her advice was "It takes 5 years for a womens body to regulate after having a baby. Give yourself more time" I was so discouraged...

:noway:

While there are certain things that don't go back to "normal" right away and could stay a given way for a few years (elevating the hormones that maintain lactation, suppressing the hormones that cause ovulation), it's generally only a couple of years, and only that long if you're breastfeeding. Having periods that last for weeks is never a good sign, and can even be dangerous due to the loss of blood and increased risk of iron deficiency anemia. Additionally, it sounds like you started having problems even before you had your baby, so that sends the "it takes time" BS out the window (besides, generally speaking, things either "return to normal" within a few months of either having the baby or weaning, or are permanent changes).

Fire your conventional/allopathic doctors and find new ones. Check out http://primaldocs.com/ or http://paleophysiciansnetwork.com/ or ask your ND for a reference to an allopathic doctor (particularly if NDs in your state have limited ability to do things like prescribe medications or run blood tests; it's always good to have access to more tools should you need them, even if you end up not needing them). Never settle for doctors that refuse to run tests when you're concerned about something. The tests are on your dime and it doesn't hurt to have them run, even if it's just for your own informational purposes. Also, make sure that they don't just throw Metformin and the Pill at you without good reason (and especially without tests). Blindly prescribing things is a sure sign that the doctor only has a cursory "knowledge" of PCOS and is as good as useless to you. I'll explain the issues with the Pill in a minute, and Metformin is solely for reducing insulin resistance and insulin levels. It's not a "PCOS drug."

Ideally, find someone who specializes in PCOS, or, barring that, in Type 2 Diabetes. In my experience, those backgrounds are more likely to take your concerns more seriously, because they're more educated in the "subclinical" precursors to and early symptoms of both issues (and PCOS is a pretty close cousin to Diabetes, so there's enough crossover that a Diabetes-experienced doctor can help).

From there, see to it that you get your fasting insulin tested (different from the glucose test, but the glucose test is also useful, especially when insulin is known, too), and monitor your estrogen, progesterone, and androgen hormones (DHEAs, aldosterone). Your hormone levels will help determine what's best for you to eat or avoid.

Additionally, drop your protein and carbs down a little (to around 100g each or so, doesn't have to be exact) and increase your fats some more. Fat is required for proper absorption of vitamins A, D, E, and K, with D and K being rather integral to women's health and weight loss. Swap out your egg beaters and egg whites for whole eggs to get the choline, folate, and Omega-3 fats that egg yolks are rich in (and don't worry about the cholesterol content, that whole thing is a myth; besides, the body needs cholesterol to produce Vitamin D). That will also allow you to eat other things besides chicken breast and tuna. While protein is good, exceeding 1g/lb of lean mass doesn't really provide any more benefit.

I also highly recommend joining the PCOSis group here on MFP -- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/3070-p-c-o-sis They're a great group of ladies, and a ton of resources that can help you.

Also, which birth control did you go on that made things worse? Most birth controls are very bad for PCOS, because they're estrogen-based, which just throws an already-unbalanced system into even more disarray (worse still, the standard Pill masks the issues caused by PCOS and gives the illusion of regular periods because of the withdrawal bleeding). However, Yaz and its cousins are progesterone-based, and a mild aldosterone inhibitor, which works in favor of the PCOS body, actually helping to rebalance the hormones. If you weren't put on Yaz again after your baby, it might be worth trying. If you were, and it still backfired, then I recommend a non-hormonal birth control, like the ParaGard IUD (there's some evidence that IUDs are beneficial in women with PCOS for preventing some of the more nasty uterine issues, like cancer, so there's also that).

Dragonwolf

Garcinia cambogia and raspberry ketones come from plants too and those work wonders...oh wait. I agree lots of plants can have medicinal benefits but a lot are worthless or even harmful. Try it out I suppose but go see an actual doc that specializes in hormone disorders.

1. We're not talking about "magical weight loss pills," here. We're talking about an herb with known effects on the body. Chasteberry is used to aid in balancing hormones. Additionally, when in doubt, look to the research. Human research for raspberry ketones shows that it doesn't work. The research for chasteberry, however, is quite a bit more concrete in affecting the endocrine hormones, including in the "gold standard" of randomized, placebo-controlled studies -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC26589/ .

2. By your logic that, "because some items are snake oil, it must all be," falls flat with even the slightest scrutiny. As I mentioned, both aspiritn and penicilin are but two of the items that were derived from natural sources. In fact, you can actually get a clinical level dose of salcyclic acid, the active ingredient in aspirin, straight from the inner bark of the willow tree. Additionally, raw honey (specifically Manuka honey) is one of the few substances that can actually combat MRSA, and even better, it doesn't create more resistant strains of bacteria ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0057679 ). Additionally, roughly half of conventional medicines are either directly derived from natural sources, or the natural sources, themselves ( http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/np200906s ).

Conversely, your same assertions can be said of conventional/synthetic medicines. Benzodiazepine is a prime example. It's commonly used to treat anxiety, insomnia, seizures, and other neurological issues. However, it's highly addictive, can actually backfire (causing seizures or other behaviors it's meant to treat), and long term use can cause nasty withdrawal symptoms that are basically the very symptoms it was supposed to treat.

If Benzo's that bad, everything must be that bad, right? Of course not. It all comes back to being knowledgable about what you're consuming. Drug or herb, you should do some research to see how it works, what adverse effects it may have, and any interactions it may have.

3. Even among "doctors that specialize in hormone disorders," ones that are actually knowledgable about PCOS are actually few and far between. Most will just throw a prescription for a (usually estrogen-based) hormonal birth control pill and Metformin at them with no other information. This is useless at best and dangerous at worst, because Metformin is not a weight loss or PCOS drug. It does one thing, and one thing only -- increases insulin sensitivity in the liver. Anything else that happens because of that is purely a result of insulin levels going down. Now, this is generally useful for women with PCOS, because women with PCOS generally are also insulin resistant, but not always, and if you don't know your insulin levels, you can't even begin to get the correct dose and treatment length for using Metformin, if you need it at all.

Estrogen based birth controls are downright harmful to women with PCOS, because we usually already suffer from estrogen dominance, and by virtue of that alone, we're at risk for a number of serious health conditions, including endometriosis, and endometrial and breast cancer. Medications that further increase our estrogen levels will further increase our risk of these serious health issues, not to mention won't be of any use for actually doing anything about the PCOS. Even worse? The Pill masks the menstrual related symptoms of PCOS by giving the illusion of a regular cycle (it's actually a withdrawal bleed).

Mischievous_Rascal

High estrogen and low progesterone are a common imbalance. I'm coming off a surgery recovery and the only thing I've done differently is no heavy cardio for five weeks. Lots of cardio can reduce progesterone production. My period's returned and my deflated girls have (literally) bounced back.

Chaste berry helps with progesterone levels. Low amounts of this hormone are associated with miscarriages and a friend of mine is taking Vitex now for that very reason. It takes a bit to correct your imbalance, though, so have patience and give yourself a few months.

manique45

Yes, because things like aspirin and penicillin didn't come from a source in nature...(oh, wait...)

Also, if it is PCOS, most conventional doctors aren't much better equipped to treat it than a "witch doctor." Most will blindly throw pills at you -- if you can get them to run the tests at all. So...yeah.

Chasteberry is actually known for its ability to inhibit the production of follicle stimulating hormone (thus decreasing estrogen production), and increasing the production of lutenizing hormone and inhibits prolactin (thus increase progesterone production). Additionally, chasteberry doesn't really have side effects, nor does it interfere with other medications (except dopamine related ones), so it's harmless to try.

That said, I do agree that it sounds very much like Polycystic Ovarian Syndrome (PCOS) with estrogen dominance, and you should see an endo to get it confirmed/ruled out (and monitored if confirmed). PCOS is a pain in the *kitten* to deal with on your own, so any medical support you can get will help.

http://www.aafp.org/afp/2005/0901/p821.html

Quote above:

thank you for this... very insightful when I did see the endocrinologist she wasn't helpful at all didn't even suggest looking past my thyroid test. It had been about 18 months after I had my son and her advice was "It takes 5 years for a womens body to regulate after having a baby. Give yourself more time" I was so discouraged...

:noway:

While there are certain things that don't go back to "normal" right away and could stay a given way for a few years (elevating the hormones that maintain lactation, suppressing the hormones that cause ovulation), it's generally only a couple of years, and only that long if you're breastfeeding. Having periods that last for weeks is never a good sign, and can even be dangerous due to the loss of blood and increased risk of iron deficiency anemia. Additionally, it sounds like you started having problems even before you had your baby, so that sends the "it takes time" BS out the window (besides, generally speaking, things either "return to normal" within a few months of either having the baby or weaning, or are permanent changes).

Fire your conventional/allopathic doctors and find new ones. Check out http://primaldocs.com/ or http://paleophysiciansnetwork.com/ or ask your ND for a reference to an allopathic doctor (particularly if NDs in your state have limited ability to do things like prescribe medications or run blood tests; it's always good to have access to more tools should you need them, even if you end up not needing them). Never settle for doctors that refuse to run tests when you're concerned about something. The tests are on your dime and it doesn't hurt to have them run, even if it's just for your own informational purposes. Also, make sure that they don't just throw Metformin and the Pill at you without good reason (and especially without tests). Blindly prescribing things is a sure sign that the doctor only has a cursory "knowledge" of PCOS and is as good as useless to you. I'll explain the issues with the Pill in a minute, and Metformin is solely for reducing insulin resistance and insulin levels. It's not a "PCOS drug."

Ideally, find someone who specializes in PCOS, or, barring that, in Type 2 Diabetes. In my experience, those backgrounds are more likely to take your concerns more seriously, because they're more educated in the "subclinical" precursors to and early symptoms of both issues (and PCOS is a pretty close cousin to Diabetes, so there's enough crossover that a Diabetes-experienced doctor can help).

From there, see to it that you get your fasting insulin tested (different from the glucose test, but the glucose test is also useful, especially when insulin is known, too), and monitor your estrogen, progesterone, and androgen hormones (DHEAs, aldosterone). Your hormone levels will help determine what's best for you to eat or avoid.

Additionally, drop your protein and carbs down a little (to around 100g each or so, doesn't have to be exact) and increase your fats some more. Fat is required for proper absorption of vitamins A, D, E, and K, with D and K being rather integral to women's health and weight loss. Swap out your egg beaters and egg whites for whole eggs to get the choline, folate, and Omega-3 fats that egg yolks are rich in (and don't worry about the cholesterol content, that whole thing is a myth; besides, the body needs cholesterol to produce Vitamin D). That will also allow you to eat other things besides chicken breast and tuna. While protein is good, exceeding 1g/lb of lean mass doesn't really provide any more benefit.

I also highly recommend joining the PCOSis group here on MFP -- http://www.myfitnesspal.com/groups/home/3070-p-c-o-sis They're a great group of ladies, and a ton of resources that can help you.

Also, which birth control did you go on that made things worse? Most birth controls are very bad for PCOS, because they're estrogen-based, which just throws an already-unbalanced system into even more disarray (worse still, the standard Pill masks the issues caused by PCOS and gives the illusion of regular periods because of the withdrawal bleeding). However, Yaz and its cousins are progesterone-based, and a mild aldosterone inhibitor, which works in favor of the PCOS body, actually helping to rebalance the hormones. If you weren't put on Yaz again after your baby, it might be worth trying. If you were, and it still backfired, then I recommend a non-hormonal birth control, like the ParaGard IUD (there's some evidence that IUDs are beneficial in women with PCOS for preventing some of the more nasty uterine issues, like cancer, so there's also that).

Wow so HELPFUL!! Thank you, I will look into this group. I just recently went to my conventional doctor and I am waiting on doing labs. they are fasting, plus she is testing my hormones with this one so she said the perfect time to test is the first three days of my menstral cycle. I am a couple days late so I was thinking of going and getting my labs drawn the first day of my period. I want to look up more research on that as well.

The birth control he put me back on was orthotrycyclin... I'm sure I messed the spelling up on that one... it made my face look like a war zone... I had a tubal ligation done after my baby was born, he was my third c section and I am done having babies, so I'd like to avoid birthcontrol if possible. Very good to know about the YAZ though...

manique45

Garcinia cambogia and raspberry ketones come from plants too and those work wonders...oh wait. I agree lots of plants can have medicinal benefits but a lot are worthless or even harmful. Try it out I suppose but go see an actual doc that specializes in hormone disorders.

1. We're not talking about "magical weight loss pills," here. We're talking about an herb with known effects on the body. Chasteberry is used to aid in balancing hormones. Additionally, when in doubt, look to the research. Human research for raspberry ketones shows that it doesn't work. The research for chasteberry, however, is quite a bit more concrete in affecting the endocrine hormones, including in the "gold standard" of randomized, placebo-controlled studies -- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC26589/ .

2. By your logic that, "because some items are snake oil, it must all be," falls flat with even the slightest scrutiny. As I mentioned, both aspiritn and penicilin are but two of the items that were derived from natural sources. In fact, you can actually get a clinical level dose of salcyclic acid, the active ingredient in aspirin, straight from the inner bark of the willow tree. Additionally, raw honey (specifically Manuka honey) is one of the few substances that can actually combat MRSA, and even better, it doesn't create more resistant strains of bacteria ( http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0057679 ). Additionally, roughly half of conventional medicines are either directly derived from natural sources, or the natural sources, themselves ( http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/np200906s ).

Conversely, your same assertions can be said of conventional/synthetic medicines. Benzodiazepine is a prime example. It's commonly used to treat anxiety, insomnia, seizures, and other neurological issues. However, it's highly addictive, can actually backfire (causing seizures or other behaviors it's meant to treat), and long term use can cause nasty withdrawal symptoms that are basically the very symptoms it was supposed to treat.

If Benzo's that bad, everything must be that bad, right? Of course not. It all comes back to being knowledgable about what you're consuming. Drug or herb, you should do some research to see how it works, what adverse effects it may have, and any interactions it may have.

3. Even among "doctors that specialize in hormone disorders," ones that are actually knowledgable about PCOS are actually few and far between. Most will just throw a prescription for a (usually estrogen-based) hormonal birth control pill and Metformin at them with no other information. This is useless at best and dangerous at worst, because Metformin is not a weight loss or PCOS drug. It does one thing, and one thing only -- increases insulin sensitivity in the liver. Anything else that happens because of that is purely a result of insulin levels going down. Now, this is generally useful for women with PCOS, because women with PCOS generally are also insulin resistant, but not always, and if you don't know your insulin levels, you can't even begin to get the correct dose and treatment length for using Metformin, if you need it at all.

Estrogen based birth controls are downright harmful to women with PCOS, because we usually already suffer from estrogen dominance, and by virtue of that alone, we're at risk for a number of serious health conditions, including endometriosis, and endometrial and breast cancer. Medications that further increase our estrogen levels will further increase our risk of these serious health issues, not to mention won't be of any use for actually doing anything about the PCOS. Even worse? The Pill masks the menstrual related symptoms of PCOS by giving the illusion of a regular cycle (it's actually a withdrawal bleed).

Reading this info about insulin resistance... Just out of curiousity do you know anything about the effects on pregnancy? I always passed my gluclose test, however I would gain a good 60 lbs each pregnancy very easily I swear by just looking at bread/grains, Doctors were convinced I had gestational diabetes especially when all my babies came out nearly 10 lbs and broad shoulders.

MizTerry

You could always talk to your doc about having your hormones tested and try some natural balancing through compounding.
I did this, and it's the best thing I ever did.

Dragonwolf

Reading this info about insulin resistance... Just out of curiousity do you know anything about the effects on pregnancy? I always passed my gluclose test, however I would gain a good 60 lbs each pregnancy very easily I swear by just looking at bread/grains, Doctors were convinced I had gestational diabetes especially when all my babies came out nearly 10 lbs and broad shoulders.

I don't, but it wouldn't surprise me if it does have some kind of effect. Unfortunately, doctors only check for glucose tolerance, so it's hard telling whether you did or not, and pregnancy hormones turn that front into a crapshoot, because they can actually reverse the effects of pre-existing PCOS, among other things.

manique45

You could always talk to your doc about having your hormones tested and try some natural balancing through compounding.
I did this, and it's the best thing I ever did.

Thank you, I'm on this road right now, getting hormones tested... Feel its neccessary to have a baseline

)

manique45

Reading this info about insulin resistance... Just out of curiousity do you know anything about the effects on pregnancy? I always passed my gluclose test, however I would gain a good 60 lbs each pregnancy very easily I swear by just looking at bread/grains, Doctors were convinced I had gestational diabetes especially when all my babies came out nearly 10 lbs and broad shoulders.

I don't, but it wouldn't surprise me if it does have some kind of effect. Unfortunately, doctors only check for glucose tolerance, so it's hard telling whether you did or not, and pregnancy hormones turn that front into a crapshoot, because they can actually reverse the effects of pre-existing PCOS, among other things.

thx again for all your help! you have been so kind and this is what I was hoping to find here... Through MYFitNessPal I have dropped my weight from 198-153 and have learned so much with the website!!

HeidiCooksSupper

The University of Michigan Health System makes the Healthwise information about drugs and supplements available on their website. The link for this one is: http://www.uofmhealth.org/health-library/hn-2181002#hn-2181002-uses

Note that on the side effects page it says not to take it while taking other hormone-based treatments.

nancy10272004

You may have polycystic ovarian syndrome. Go see an endocrinologist and not a witch doctor prescribing magic berries.

Well since you seem to have all the answers perhaps I should just ask you... FYI I did see an endocrinologist and she does thyroid more gland disorders not hormonal balance things. I seen an OB GYN and a GYNO specializing in female problems, Many test were done and they couldn't figure out why I am bleeding except my hormones are not balanced...

I am sincerely asking for others review on similar instances not your two cents that is not helpful.

Well, why not go to an endocronoligist who does specialize in hormone imbalances? They're usually fertility specialists and will understand your problems better than anyone.

I went to one and found out a helluva lot more about what was happening in my body than five doctors, one acupuncturist and one herbalist put together.

nancy10272004

Duplicate post. Nothing to see here.